Quote from: mythusmage;606314Just read it for a second time in. After reading it again I was wondering, could somebody explain what he actually said? Lots of words, little discernable meaning. Methinks Mr. Edwards mistook erudition for explication.

Or as Jane Curtin once said to Gilda Radner on Saturday Night, "That's elections Ms. Leuttella, Presidential elections."

Okay, I'll try again.

"Fantasy heartbreaker" is a term Ron Edwards coined to describe indie fantasy RPGs which are sad for a number of reasons:

1. They're a labour of love by the designers, who are putting in a lot of time and money.
2. Their design has at least one really interesting idea.
3. Unfortunately, that creativity is buried by the fact that 90% or more of what the creators know about game design is confined to D&D.
4. Even more unfortunately, their game is doomed because it's an indie game directly competing with D&D.

The original essays were all about fantasy games that evolved out of different people's attempts to do "D&D, but fixed." Often, the designers hadn't really played any other games, so they'd market their games as containing "innovations" (that another game did ten years before) or "only limited by your imagination" (assuming your imagination is limited to Tolkienesque high fantasy).

The 90s gave us some Urban Fantasy Heartbreakers (by people who didn't play games until White Wolf came along). Everlasting is one example. These days, the term "heartbreaker" gets tossed around a lot to describe any forgettable, derivative indie game published as a vanity project, but that's not what the term really means. It's also applied to a lot of retroclones, most of which don't qualify for the title because they don't contain any innovations whatsoever.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;606354Dude, you're the one advocating the study all his works (including the secret gnostic unpublished stuff) to "try to understand" his writing style.

That's not what I meant.  I simple meant that I'd like to see a real analysis of Gary's work that wasn't just done by an old-schooler who thinks everything Gary did after 1980 sucked.  I'd like to see real research the way Jon Peterson is doing, or the guys writing the documentary from Kickstarter.  There are too many bloggers out there who sort of pontificate without research like Gary had lived 100 years ago when there's enough people out there and writings that could portray a better answer.

QuoteWhat are some examples of such apocryphal "Gygax Gospels and Epistles?

It was a metaphor.  I would just like to see accurate history.   For instance, the reason I responded to this thread was to point out the fact that Luke and Ernie Gygax haven't really followed their dad into the game writing world, and did not work with him--where there's a lot of fans who want to believe a myth of "Luke and Ernie" being "de facto" heirs to the creative font, simply because they played Melf and Tenser.  That's an example of how these things kind of spin out of control.

I wouldn't have a "stick up my ass" if you didn't provoke it by saying "yeah, JRT, I'm using Gygaxian anyway".  I think the term should be used objectively and not just turn into "Gygaxian is what I think it is".  That's an example of taking history and turning it into myth.

The music industry has taught us, if nothing else, that most sons of famously talented people don't necessarily inherit said talent, as much as people would like them to.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;606354And I think singular "their" is annoying and grammatically incorrect (although I even find myself writing it, sometimes), but we're both pissing into the wind.

if the singular they and it's forms we're good enough or Jane Austin, Mark Twain, Shakespeare, Hemmingway, and Shaw, then it is good enough for us.

Quote from: Doctor Jest;607015if the singular they and it's forms we're good enough or Jane Austin, Mark Twain, Shakespeare, Hemmingway, and Shaw, then it is good enough for us.

Like I said, I know my dislike of that usage is like pissing into the wind.  I don't bother to fight about it.  I only brought it up as an example.  Advocates of singular their have "won."  Language isn't cast in stone.  Et cetera.  It's not a battle I'm interested in fighting.

Quote from: JRT;606592There are too many bloggers out there who sort of pontificate without research like Gary had lived 100 years ago...

Who do you have in mind?

Quote...Luke and Ernie Gygax haven't really followed their dad into the game writing world, and did not work with him...

I agree; I had the same thought.

Quote...there's a lot of fans who want to believe a myth of "Luke and Ernie" being "de facto" heirs to the creative font, simply because they played Melf and Tenser.

I've seen people say Luke and Ernie should have the right to use their last name as part of the name of a gaming publication (although I think that's a question which isn't as simple as it might seem).  And I've seen people say that Luke and Ernie are, at least, actually gamers, which gives them a measure of credibility compared to, say, a pundit or hanger-on who doesn't play or enjoy tabletop RPGs.  But I'm not sure what you mean by "heirs to the creative font."

Are you saying that people think Luke and Ernie have inherited Gary's creativity?  Can you point me to some examples of fans promoting the myth you're talking about?

QuoteI wouldn't have a "stick up my ass" if you didn't provoke it by saying "yeah, JRT, I'm using Gygaxian anyway".

My intent wasn't to provoke you; it was to preemptively acknowledge your objection.  That is, I already knew the stick was there, already knew you think "Gygaxian" should be an objective term that basically means "authored by Gygax," and that one should never use "Gygaxian" subjectively.  I was saying "yeah, I already know I'm using the term subjectively" hoping to head off a tedious lecture.

Epic fail.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;607097And I've seen people say that Luke and Ernie are, at least, actually gamers, which gives them a measure of credibility compared to, say, a pundit or hanger-on who doesn't play or enjoy tabletop RPGs.

Being a gamer doesn't equate a good writer, and conversely that could also be applied vice-versa, I guess.  There are some writers who can write well and not want to game as much, especially when the work takes over.  Even Gary said he didn't play or play test much AD&D in the later years at TSR.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;607097Are you saying that people think Luke and Ernie have inherited Gary's creativity?  Can you point me to some examples of fans propagating the myth you're talking about?

I've seen a lot of threads where people are praising them based on them just being part of Gary's campaign, for instance.  There's also some hinted speculation implying that they are going to write about D&D or get more details on Greyhawk.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;607097I already know I'm using the term subjectively" hoping to head off a tedious lecture.  Epic fail.

I probably would have let it pass--your statement about a "stick" really lets me believe I possible personally offend or irritate you somehow, so I responded more directly, explaining why I think it's dumb to use "Gygaxian" in such a subjective manner.  I suggest you try not to let any passive-aggressive hostility get in your posts, as I believe in most cases I've always tried to be polite to people while disagreeing with them, and it can lead to further misunderstandings.

Quote from: RPGPundit;607001The music industry has taught us, if nothing else, that most sons of famously talented people don't necessarily inherit said talent, as much as people would like them to.

RPGPundit

True.  Keep in mind, I'm not saying they are going to do a poor job, I'm saying most of their creative works have been few and far between, so it's really hard to judge on their own merits.

It's just that a lot of people tend to think of families forming dynasties of creativity, but that's usually not the case.  For every, say Christopher Tolkien who's a writer and dedicated to preserving his father's work (and can contribute to it), there are other families that don't have the talent--nobody in Charles Schulz's family is a cartoonist, for instance--or interest.

I also think that being a gamer does not equate either being a good writer, or even a good Game master if you're a player.  In the Internet age everybody thinks anyone qualified to be a game master is automatically a proto-writer, but it's a lot different.

Quote from: JRT;607102True.  Keep in mind, I'm not saying they are going to do a poor job, I'm saying most of their creative works have been few and far between, so it's really hard to judge on their own merits.

It's just that a lot of people tend to think of families forming dynasties of creativity, but that's usually not the case.  For every, say Christopher Tolkien who's a writer and dedicated to preserving his father's work (and can contribute to it), there are other families that don't have the talent--nobody in Charles Schulz's family is a cartoonist, for instance--or interest.

I also think that being a gamer does not equate either being a good writer, or even a good Game master if you're a player.  In the Internet age everybody thinks anyone qualified to be a game master is automatically a proto-writer, but it's a lot different.

Yeah, RPGs also aren't rocket-science.  I'm sure Ernie and Luke could both write decent enough dungeons or adventures.  Just no one should expect them to revolutionize.

RPGPundit

Quote from: JRT;607101Being a gamer doesn't equate a good writer, and conversely that could also be applied vice-versa, I guess.

Yes, I agree.  I think pretty much everyone agrees with that, actually, which is why I was asking for examples of what you're talking about (i.e., people promoting a myth of Ernie and Luke being heirs to the creative font of Gygax).

QuoteI've seen a lot of threads where people are praising them based on them just being part of Gary's campaign, for instance.

Praising them for what, exactly?  Which threads?  

You've complained that people have been writing "Gospels and Epistles" without studying Gary (or his complete corpus of work), and said "there's a lot of that right now."  I asked you for some examples.  You said it was a metaphor.

You said there are "too many bloggers out there who sort of pontificate without research like Gary had lived 100 years ago."  I asked who you had in mind.  You didn't respond.

You said there are a "lot of fans who want to believe a myth of 'Luke and Ernie' being 'de facto' heirs to the creative font."  I asked if you believed other people think Luke and Ernie have inherited Gary's creativity, and asked for some examples of fans promoting the myth you're talking about.  You responded that being a gamer doesn't mean you're a good writer (and vice versa), which is quite true, but isn't an answer.

Is all this just more metaphors and hyperbole?  

QuoteThere's also some hinted speculation implying that they are going to write about D&D or get more details on Greyhawk.

That would be nice, assuming there are no legal problems.  I'd be interested in reading anecdotes of their gaming in the Greyhawk campaign, just out of pure curiosity.  I doubt I'm alone in that, so it seems like a reasonable enough speculation.  I suppose we'll just have to wait and see.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;607356You said there are "too many bloggers out there who sort of pontificate without research like Gary had lived 100 years ago."  I asked who you had in mind.  You didn't respond.

I was thinking specifically of Grognardia, where every time James reads a book he likes, he sometimes says something like "Gygax didn't specifically list this in Appendix N, but I'll bet he did", etc, when he could instead of making an off-cuff statement he could always ask his friends or co-workers who are still alive if he did or not, or review Gary's questions--or just leave that off-the-cuff statement out of the blogpost.  That's the kind of stuff I find irritating.  I didn't want to mention this one though since I feel James gets a lot of unfair flack just because he's popular.

I don't feel like digging up message board threads, since my guess is unless that exact quote is used ("heirs to the font") you'd criticize it, and to be honest its based on interpretation, and based on the last sentence I feel this is more based on some antipathy you have towards me rather than genuine curiosity.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;607356That would be nice, assuming there are no legal problems.  I'd be interested in reading anecdotes of their gaming in the Greyhawk campaign, just out of pure curiosity.  I doubt I'm alone in that, so it seems like a reasonable enough speculation.  I suppose we'll just have to wait and see.

Personally, I'd rather see something from them that doesn't involve either Greyhawk or AD&D.  For instance, from what Gary has said, Ernie doesn't involve himself in many RPGs nowadays, just board games--I'm curious if he's created any of his own.  I'd love to hear either general stories of TSR (not related to game details), or some of Luke's involvement with Gary's post Greyhawk campaigns.  Anything else than delving into the D&D/Greyhawk well.

Oops, double-post

Quote from: JRT;607388I was thinking specifically of Grognardia, where every time James reads a book he likes, he sometimes says something like "Gygax didn't specifically list this in Appendix N, but I'll bet he did", etc...

I don't often read Grognardia, but that kind of thing might irritate me, too.

QuoteI didn't want to mention this one though since I feel James gets a lot of unfair flack just because he's popular.

Well, if your criticism is fair, then it's not unfair flack, right?  Nevertheless, I'd say that a fair criticism is best built on actual quotes or references, rather than on sweeping, vague statements and metaphors.

QuoteI don't feel like digging up message board threads, since my guess is unless that exact quote is used ("heirs to the font") you'd criticize it...

You're the one offering criticism or complaint, but you're doing so in a very broad and vague manner.  I'm asking you to provide specific examples of what you're criticizing or complaining about.  I don't think that's unreasonable.

Heck, given actual examples, you might find that I agree with you.  Who knows?

As far as the "creative font" question goes, recall that, in addition to requesting some examples, I asked if you believe that other people think Luke and Ernie have inherited Gary's creativity.  So, no, a direct quote containing "heirs to the creative font" isn't required.  Did you mean that you believe some people think Luke and Ernie have inherited Gary's creativity?  Or did you mean that you believe some people think Luke and Ernie have inherited the rights to Gary's creative works?  Or what?

QuotePersonally, I'd rather see something from them that doesn't involve either Greyhawk or AD&D.  For instance, from what Gary has said, Ernie doesn't involve himself in many RPGs nowadays, just board games--I'm curious if he's created any of his own.  I'd love to hear either general stories of TSR (not related to game details), or some of Luke's involvement with Gary's post Greyhawk campaigns.  Anything else than delving into the D&D/Greyhawk well.

I'd be happy to hear about other gaming or TSR-related stuff, too, but I wouldn't exclude D&D/Greyhawk material.

Quote from: Halloween Jack;606467Okay, I'll try again.

"Fantasy heartbreaker" is a term Ron Edwards coined to describe indie fantasy RPGs which are sad for a number of reasons:

[snip]

That, and all the rest, I'll grant you. However, time has gone on since that day, and as you noted with Everlasting the term has been extended to games and systems other than D&D. Usage has expanded, that is my point.

Quote from: JRT;606592...For instance, the reason I responded to this thread was to point out the fact that Luke and Ernie Gygax haven't really followed their dad into the game writing world, and did not work with him...

The work they, and others did was largely informal. And playtesting counts.