Pfff getting the pdf is as easy as asking Google for it.

No artwork what so ever in the 2nd edition.

I can almost see why the author didn't sell the pdf, with the PDF and a printer, you can get "the experience" of the book.

Quote from: bat;1035661I understand that, the author has the freedom to distribute how they wish too, there is nothing set in stone about offering .pdfs. I am just saying that this is a shipping issue with Lulu, isn't it? I do not blame the author for distributing how they want, however, in this case, offering a .pdf would be a nice gesture.

Sure but there are consequences to choices. In this case it annoyed a customer in a country that Lulu doesn't serve well. If foreign sales was a concern of an author than they would do what they could to make it as easy as possible. The limit being what is offered by the services they use.

One option that is not often considered for oddball sale is to open a Esty store. They allow authors to sell physical books there. This way you can keep a small stock on hand to handle the occasional foreign order charging what needed to cover the shipping.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1035670Pfff getting the pdf is as easy as asking Google for it.

That may be so however that is copyright piracy and something we don't condone here.

Quote from: estar;1035683That may be so however that is copyright piracy and something we don't condone here.

Also, to appeal to taste, the Whitehack books are really nice as BOOKS.

One thing I have noticed about Scandanavian RPG designers and writers is they care about books as books. This might not matter to everyone. But I really enjoy it.

Quote from: estar;1035683That may be so however that is copyright piracy and something we don't condone here.

Not condone, but the lurking author should be aware that his lack of a PDF version to buy is both annoying to customers and does not prevent access to a PDF version.

I've spent a few hundred on RPG PDFs recently. People do buy them.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1035688Not condone, but the lurking author should be aware that his lack of a PDF version to buy is both annoying to customers and does not prevent access to a PDF version.

I've spent a few hundred on RPG PDFs recently. People do buy them.

Exactly. Let's not all be a bunch of Pollyannas here. While I'm sure nobody condones it, there is a pdf out there. I have never scanned and/or pirated anyone's work because I would not want the same in return, but I am sure we are all aware it is out there.

Hey. Thanks to all for replying.

You are of course correct, there is a PDF. I am aware of its existence. And now I have read it all the way through (I figured I paid for something, right?), I am aware of what Whitehack really is.

You have to understand that Poland is constantly marginalised in terms of cultural exchange. It might seem utterly insignificant to many, but it took a lot of effort getting a group together here, especially one that speaks enough English (my own Polish is gobshite awful). It is even harder when you consider that that group is mostly female, doesn't want to play D&D (it has yet to be ever published here as far as I can tell), and even though I believe 'Lamentations' to be a greater game than many, there is no way I am exposing my players as young as 12 to images of vaginas being torn open giving birth to dragons, even if I buy the non-artwork version (because that culture is still out there online). Whitehack presents itself like an old Penguin Classic. It screams whimsy, and literary, and intelligent storytelling.

Truth is though, I now know it to be a murderhobo clone with some funky edges. It's the IKEA of OSR games: looks stylish, but you have to assemble it yourself, the instructions don't read entirely clearly and I am pretty sure the game will break if played with too hard.

I suspect it won't turn up anyway. You post something east without an airmail sticker, which is the 'free shipping' way for Lulu... well maybe it comes, maybe it doesn't. I was stupid to buy in to the 'beautiful object' cult that surrounds it. I was stupid not to just download the crappily scanned PDF in the first instance and 'ruin the mystery'. I thought the reviews were enough evidence of it being worth the $. I was stupid to try and save a few dollars with coupons. I was stupid to promise it to my players as the solution they wanted without knowing its nuances and flaws.

But worst of all for me, is that for years and years I have just stayed out of online discussion of RPGs. I like the people who play, mostly, but I hate the flaming and the hardnosed (mostly stateside) arguing over 'cultural politics' and mechanics. I was caught in a moment of anger on behalf of a disappointed child, and now I have gone and 'Sunday morning ranted' and these shitposts are now my first posts on the net (and to the wider community) in a very, very long time. Toxic bullshit, and it's not who I am. I am sorry for imposing my frustrations on others, and hijacking this thread as if it was all about me.

I came here to chat to other players and GMs, not burn happy villages. Hopefully I haven't poisoned the well for others: the Whitehack community seems passionate about the game, and I am not one who sets out to deliberately quell passions.

Peace to all.

Including Lulu.

Quote from: Bess;1035449On the topic of non-pdf distribution, I just want to add a quick comment. It has been 6 weeks since I purchased 'Whitehack' from Lulu (the only place it is officially available) and received a 'dispatch' notification- and I am still waiting for it to arrive. My group, mostly comprised of young women, were drawn to the game by its appearance to be a more literary, open world setting and less a 'hack and slash' affair. We have long since however moved on using another, easily available system. If there had been a PDF I would have had it printed at my local bookbinders (who I am sure could print and saddlestitch it using pure vellum if I asked), and we would be 3 weeks deep into the campaign using Whitehack. We waited and waited.

I can only presume the insistence on using Lulu as the only distribution point is because the work is a vanity publication, difficult to obtain if you are not in the Northern US or Western Europe (I am currently based in Central Europe, which is hardly the ends of the earth).

I am extremely disappointed, obviously.

I am sure it's a fine game if you get to play it. You see, for all the efforts to resist the digitization of the hobby, it's extremely shortsighted to insist upon an analog format and then limit that distribution, or worse, sell it through a shop that doesn't deliver.

Welcome to theRPGsite!  I can certainly sympathize with being out of the usual shipping routes, being down here.  An rpg product sent here from the US can take anywhere from a week to six months, though about two is usually the average.

Quote from: Bess;1035812Hey. Thanks to all for replying.

You are of course correct, there is a PDF. I am aware of its existence. And now I have read it all the way through (I figured I paid for something, right?), I am aware of what Whitehack really is.

You have to understand that Poland is constantly marginalised in terms of cultural exchange. It might seem utterly insignificant to many, but it took a lot of effort getting a group together here, especially one that speaks enough English (my own Polish is gobshite awful). It is even harder when you consider that that group is mostly female, doesn't want to play D&D (it has yet to be ever published here as far as I can tell), and even though I believe 'Lamentations' to be a greater game than many, there is no way I am exposing my players as young as 12 to images of vaginas being torn open giving birth to dragons, even if I buy the non-artwork version (because that culture is still out there online). Whitehack presents itself like an old Penguin Classic. It screams whimsy, and literary, and intelligent storytelling.

Why not get Lion & Dragon?!

It's got a lot of the really great new-OSR mechanical stuff, and I bet the medieval-authenticity would be appealing to Poles (if the Witcher series is anything to go by).

Quote from: Bess;1035812Hey. Thanks to all for replying.

You are of course correct, there is a PDF. I am aware of its existence. And now I have read it all the way through (I figured I paid for something, right?), I am aware of what Whitehack really is.

You have to understand that Poland is constantly marginalised in terms of cultural exchange. It might seem utterly insignificant to many, but it took a lot of effort getting a group together here, especially one that speaks enough English (my own Polish is gobshite awful). It is even harder when you consider that that group is mostly female, doesn't want to play D&D (it has yet to be ever published here as far as I can tell), and even though I believe 'Lamentations' to be a greater game than many, there is no way I am exposing my players as young as 12 to images of vaginas being torn open giving birth to dragons, even if I buy the non-artwork version (because that culture is still out there online). Whitehack presents itself like an old Penguin Classic. It screams whimsy, and literary, and intelligent storytelling.

Truth is though, I now know it to be a murderhobo clone with some funky edges. It's the IKEA of OSR games: looks stylish, but you have to assemble it yourself, the instructions don't read entirely clearly and I am pretty sure the game will break if played with too hard.

I suspect it won't turn up anyway. You post something east without an airmail sticker, which is the 'free shipping' way for Lulu... well maybe it comes, maybe it doesn't. I was stupid to buy in to the 'beautiful object' cult that surrounds it. I was stupid not to just download the crappily scanned PDF in the first instance and 'ruin the mystery'. I thought the reviews were enough evidence of it being worth the $. I was stupid to try and save a few dollars with coupons. I was stupid to promise it to my players as the solution they wanted without knowing its nuances and flaws.

But worst of all for me, is that for years and years I have just stayed out of online discussion of RPGs. I like the people who play, mostly, but I hate the flaming and the hardnosed (mostly stateside) arguing over 'cultural politics' and mechanics. I was caught in a moment of anger on behalf of a disappointed child, and now I have gone and 'Sunday morning ranted' and these shitposts are now my first posts on the net (and to the wider community) in a very, very long time. Toxic bullshit, and it's not who I am. I am sorry for imposing my frustrations on others, and hijacking this thread as if it was all about me.

I came here to chat to other players and GMs, not burn happy villages. Hopefully I haven't poisoned the well for others: the Whitehack community seems passionate about the game, and I am not one who sets out to deliberately quell passions.

Peace to all.

Including Lulu.

Why not look at something like Beyond the Wall?  That might be more along the lines of what you were looking for.  It's available as a print book and pdf on Drivethru.

I would second both Lion & Dragon and Beyond the Wall.

If you have particularly young players then Beyond the Wall is ideal.

Other choices are:

Basic Fantasy: very cheap (free as PDF) and really well supported.

Fantastic Heroes and Witchery: (very good value and Free version on PDF) the encyclopedia par excellence of OSR clones

Dragon Warriors: also cheep now (PWYW/free as PDF) not D&D but similar and very very accessible. It also has a more medieval feeling to it.

Good gaming Bess!

Hey Bess, have you look at Dungeon World? It's got simple, pick-and-play rules based on D&D but more loose and narrative. It's the game I play with my 10-years old son and daughter.

I have a copy of Whitehack. The magic rules seem to require a bunch of arbitrary decision making and "negotiation", which made me not want to run it.

Hey
Thanks all.
I am looking into Blackhack now and tinkering with some homebrew mods and a ritual magic system that causes chaotic disruption and destabilises reality. I will check out Lion & Dragon (maybe a good fit for this as I want to keep things ground in reality and gradually drifting out into weird because of consequence of character actions), and Beyond the Wall. Dungeon World might be a little too 'archetype fixed' game for my style, but I will investigate- I have flinched from PBTA stuff when I read about it online, but I think that is probably my misperception that it's not scaleable for campaign play. Thank you though, I appreciate all the suggestions. I am certain of one thing: to play against the (my) grain with my group, pushing them into more 'harsh environment / encounter with weird society' as the big bad, especially as they spend all the time carefully avoiding combat with a sly mix of nets, distraction tactics, 'sleep poisons' and various sneakery aboutery.

Although the whole frustrating situation with delivery boiled my blood, it has actually prompted me back to my own game based on Slavic myths and legends, which I will post about somewhere else in this forum at another time. Clouds/silver linings/etc.

Thanks again.

The first time I looked at Whitehack I thought it had been over-praised in reviews, and I wasn't impressed.  I've flipped through it since, and I'm starting to warm up to it somewhat.  I think I would not use it in place of D&D* for fantasy, but I might prefer it over a more faithful clone for things like sci fi, horror, psychics or others.  In particular, as much as I love the back-of-book GM resources Sine Nomine puts out, I've tried Stars Without Number a couple of times now, and cannot get into its D&D In Space vibe for characters, and I'd find I'd rather just play Traveller, warts and all.  But Whitehack changes enough I think I'd like it better than SWN.

No play test yet though, so this remains theoretical.  :/

*Well, house-ruled ACKS, but most of the clones are all D&D in the broad meaning anyway.

Quote from: Bess;1036220I am looking into Blackhack now and tinkering with some homebrew mods and a ritual magic system that causes chaotic disruption and destabilises reality. I will check out Lion & Dragon (maybe a good fit for this as I want to keep things ground in reality and gradually drifting out into weird because of consequence of character actions), and Beyond the Wall. Dungeon World might be a little too 'archetype fixed' game for my style, but I will investigate...

Have you tried Fate?











I'm just kidding.  Don't try Fate.  Beyond the Wall might be up your alley, but I suppose you'll figure that out yourself directly.