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Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion => Topic started by: ShieldWife on May 24, 2020, 01:58:06 PM

Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: ShieldWife on May 24, 2020, 01:58:06 PM
Has anybody ever run a game set in some version of the WoD and CoD where different game lines were mix and matched? I wondered, for example, if Vampire: the Masquerade could be the source for vampires of a setting but the werewolves could be from Werewolf: the Forsaken or even CoD Skinchangers. You could combine that with Dark Ages Fae and perhaps Prometheans.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: CTPhipps on May 24, 2020, 02:27:56 PM
I canonized Ashwood Abbey, the Hunt Club, Task Force: Valkyrie, and Slashers in my world of Darkness. Hunter: The Vigil is a great resource for the classic World of Darkness, IMHO.

I also have occasionally used Werewolf: The Forsaken as the future of Werewolf: The Apocalypse. The Garou, on the verge of collapse, proceed to have a civil war with half of them joining the Pure and the other half becoming the Forsaken.

I later did a similar "update" for Changeling: the Dreaming. The Formori have returned and the Changelings are now in the position of the Lost. On the plus side, the Formori kidnap and warp mortals into new Fae every day so they're no longer in danger of extinction.

I also tend to use the Seers of the Throne in place of the Technocracy in terms of how I run them. I really don't have any desire to do apologia for authoritarian conspiracies so the idea of just making the Union a bunch of assholes who go, "fuck you, I've got mine" is better. This isn't a genuine replacement, though, but just a way of handling it. The Union doesn't want mass ascension, it wants to keep everyone but a handful of Enlightened personnel as Sleepers forever.

I.e. The Throne's thing.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: ShieldWife on May 24, 2020, 02:43:41 PM
The WoD factions I would most want to replace with their CoD equivalents would be Apocalypse werewolves and Ascension mages. Both games, I feel, tend to dominate and overshadow other settings and systems they are exposed to. In a large scale crossover game, I think I'd want to use the CoD versions of both.

I think there is something kinda cool about the Technocracy, but the Technocracy may be one of the most setting dominating factions in the WoD.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: CTPhipps on May 24, 2020, 03:18:51 PM
I feel like a lot of people gravitate to the Technocracy as an ordered scientific materialist worldview that fights monsters in a setting overrun by them. However, I feel like the fact that falls into "The Imperium of Mankind is the good guys" which was never meant to be the case.

I admit, I've run a few Technocracy games myself, though.

Ironically, I enjoy them BECAUSE I like the idea of a La Femme Nikita or Alias situation where you work for terrible people vs. other terrible people.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: ShieldWife on May 24, 2020, 06:04:10 PM
I can get into the Technocracy as villains or heroes, both interpretations are interesting. As villains, I kind of see them as representing an Alex Jones is right sort of reality - with this massive world spanning conspiracy that is stamping out all alternatives. As flawed heroes, it's not hard to picture them as bringing in all of the benefits of the modern age that we experience in the modern real world. Of course, within the context of the Mage setting, modernity isn't necessarily such an improvement.

I think that working for a bad organization can be fun too. It also opens up the question of whether or not to stick with that bad organization to serve some greater good or to go AWOL, which could be exciting for players either way.

So I like the Technocracy, I just feel like it overshadows other setting elements when they are played to full effect. Especially when combined with other game lines.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on May 25, 2020, 06:11:12 PM
Years ago I used to fantasize a bit about a mixed WoD/CoD which threw everything in a blender. Silent Striders teaming up with Khaibit to fight the demonic legions of Apophis, Seers of the Throne behind the Technocracy, etc.

Nowadays I just save those ideas for my "open darkness"-inspired settings.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: Mordred Pendragon on May 26, 2020, 04:04:43 PM
Quite honestly, I've come up with a New World of Darkness/CofD 1st Edition chronicle that would be set in the Middle Ages and use the Roads from Dark Ages: Vampire in place of the Humanity system in the Requiem corebook.

I would not use the Strix though, nor would I use the versions of the Covenants from the second edition of Requiem. Fuck that pretentious punk bullshit.

I've also contemplated on incorporating the fan games for both Classic WoD and New WoD, like replacing Princess: The Hopeful with Senshi: The Merchandising or doing a New WoD/CofD 1st Edition conversion of Street Fighter: The Storytelling Game
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: Orphan81 on May 26, 2020, 10:18:45 PM
There were a few games where I really enjoyed the premise of the Chronicles of Darkness games... Hell I've ran successful campaigns of almost all of them. But the 20th anniversary editions of the Classic World of Darkness updated and revitalized their settings.. and just.. completely overshadow the Chronicles of Darkness versions of the game.

As much as I enjoy Mage: The Awakening, particularly for it splitting Entropy into Fate and Death... The setting just...pales in comparison to Ascensions, and everything going on it... and the level of customization you can get out of your character.. For awhile I preferred Lost over the Dreaming... and then The Dreaming 20th anniversary reminded me of everything I loved about Changeling and fixed all of the issues I had with it. Once more, it's a game with a bigger scope and much larger themes... Lost you're stuck playing Abuse victims... Dreaming is just so much much more...

Most of the Chronicle games have some weird political focus upfront that ruins it for me. Geist in particular did this. I love Ghosts and ghost stories, they're my favorite kind of horror fiction. I love Wraith and Orpheus... so I was hoping I would love Geist 2nd edition... I read the intro and it flat out goes "This is a game about speaking truth to power, and standing up to oppression. It's a game about not just sitting on the sidelines..." and all I can think was... "Fuck man, I just wanted a game about Ghosts...not overthrowing the U.S. and instituting socialism."

The exception to all of this is as Phipps said... Hunter:The Vigil... whose groups can easily be ported over to Classic wod and make some very interesting and cool results.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: Mordred Pendragon on May 26, 2020, 10:41:35 PM
Quote from: Orphan81;1131383
There were a few games where I really enjoyed the premise of the Chronicles of Darkness games... Hell I've ran successful campaigns of almost all of them. But the 20th anniversary editions of the Classic World of Darkness updated and revitalized their settings.. and just.. completely overshadow the Chronicles of Darkness versions of the game.

As much as I enjoy Mage: The Awakening, particularly for it splitting Entropy into Fate and Death... The setting just...pales in comparison to Ascensions, and everything going on it... and the level of customization you can get out of your character.. For awhile I preferred Lost over the Dreaming... and then The Dreaming 20th anniversary reminded me of everything I loved about Changeling and fixed all of the issues I had with it. Once more, it's a game with a bigger scope and much larger themes... Lost you're stuck playing Abuse victims... Dreaming is just so much much more...

Most of the Chronicle games have some weird political focus upfront that ruins it for me. Geist in particular did this. I love Ghosts and ghost stories, they're my favorite kind of horror fiction. I love Wraith and Orpheus... so I was hoping I would love Geist 2nd edition... I read the intro and it flat out goes "This is a game about speaking truth to power, and standing up to oppression. It's a game about not just sitting on the sidelines..." and all I can think was... "Fuck man, I just wanted a game about Ghosts...not overthrowing the U.S. and instituting socialism."

The exception to all of this is as Phipps said... Hunter:The Vigil... whose groups can easily be ported over to Classic wod and make some very interesting and cool results.

The worst part is that the shoehorned left-wing politics is damn near exclusively a Second Edition Chronicles of Darkness thing.

The New World of Darkness/Chronicles of Darkness 1st Edition books didn't have that, at least not as severe as the Onyx Path stuff.

Geist 1st Edition was more of a game of second chances with a vaguely voodoo theme as I recall, and there wasn't much harping about "muh oppression" or anything like that.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: Orphan81 on May 27, 2020, 10:20:23 AM
Wod and Whitewolf has always had a theme of leftist values running through it to a degree. Something I've never had a problem with. In fact, to give them credit, they were doing it before it was cool.

They did things like feature gay characters before anyone else was.

But when it became mainstream they jumped on the bandwagon towards making some of the products damn right insufferable. I still haven't read all of Geist 2nd Ed and I backed the Kickstarter.

Those opening pages just turn me off so much, because they don't actually tell you what the game is about. It's so focused on being woke, the fact you're playing half-dead mediums is barely mentioned.

Beast was another one that did this so poorly they actually pissed off the very crowd they were trying to court. Beasts were presented as Trans analogues who fed off the pain and fear of others around them... Their enemies were "Heroes" who were people who survived an encounter and gained an obsession with killing Beasts.

Somehow they tried to present the Heroes as being the Badguys when quote "Beasts just want to be left alone
" You know, while they feed off the pain and suffering of others.

Needles to say the LGBT community didn't appreciate being portrayed as literal monsters that hurt people to live. First time I've seen Onyx Path back pedal hard.. And do a complete thematic rewrite. The rewrite made Beasts more palpable and Heroes make more sense as bad guys.

New Beasts were now ancient teachers of humanity about primordial lessons and knowledge. The idea of "Don't put your hand on the burning stove." Heroes originally were about taking that knowledge back with them to the rest of humanity. Somewhere that broke and Heroes became people who learned the wrong lesson and became obsessed with hunting Beasts.

Still this was gamer gate high tide and they couldn't resist putting in a fedora wearing "m'lady" nice guy as a Hero.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on May 27, 2020, 10:39:37 AM
Quote from: Orphan81;1131383
There were a few games where I really enjoyed the premise of the Chronicles of Darkness games... Hell I've ran successful campaigns of almost all of them. But the 20th anniversary editions of the Classic World of Darkness updated and revitalized their settings.. and just.. completely overshadow the Chronicles of Darkness versions of the game.

As much as I enjoy Mage: The Awakening, particularly for it splitting Entropy into Fate and Death... The setting just...pales in comparison to Ascensions, and everything going on it... and the level of customization you can get out of your character.. For awhile I preferred Lost over the Dreaming... and then The Dreaming 20th anniversary reminded me of everything I loved about Changeling and fixed all of the issues I had with it. Once more, it's a game with a bigger scope and much larger themes... Lost you're stuck playing Abuse victims... Dreaming is just so much much more...

Most of the Chronicle games have some weird political focus upfront that ruins it for me. Geist in particular did this. I love Ghosts and ghost stories, they're my favorite kind of horror fiction. I love Wraith and Orpheus... so I was hoping I would love Geist 2nd edition... I read the intro and it flat out goes "This is a game about speaking truth to power, and standing up to oppression. It's a game about not just sitting on the sidelines..." and all I can think was... "Fuck man, I just wanted a game about Ghosts...not overthrowing the U.S. and instituting socialism."

The exception to all of this is as Phipps said... Hunter:The Vigil... whose groups can easily be ported over to Classic wod and make some very interesting and cool results.


I think you're being unfair to Chronicles of Darkness because of your nostalgia clouding your judgment. These damn ongoing edition wars are one of the key reasons I left the toxic WoD/CoD fandom. A huge reason why I decided to make my own urban fantasy settings was specifically to get away from that toxic bullshit.

Quote from: Orphan81;1131383
Most of the Chronicle games have some weird political focus upfront that ruins it for me. Geist in particular did this. I love Ghosts and ghost stories, they're my favorite kind of horror fiction. I love Wraith and Orpheus... so I was hoping I would love Geist 2nd edition... I read the intro and it flat out goes "This is a game about speaking truth to power, and standing up to oppression. It's a game about not just sitting on the sidelines..." and all I can think was... "Fuck man, I just wanted a game about Ghosts...not overthrowing the U.S. and instituting socialism."
I can say a variation of this about most of the WoD/CoD games to some degree.

Like, Wraith was about the underground railroad rather than ghost stories proper. That's why I didn't like it despite otherwise liking the idea of playable ghosts. I found myself far more interested by Lost Souls and Reaper Madness. Sadly that seems to put me in a minority, since apparently everybody else who played ghost games was only interested in underground railroad stories rather than ghost stories.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: CTPhipps on May 27, 2020, 10:43:49 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1131441
Like, Wraith was about the underground railroad rather than ghost stories proper. That's why I didn't like it despite otherwise liking the idea of playable ghosts. I found myself far more interested by Lost Souls and Reaper Madness. Sadly that seems to put me in a minority, since apparently everybody else who played ghost games was only interested in underground railroad stories rather than ghost stories.


Honestly, it bothers me to no end about the people who try and associate the villains of various game-lines with RL institutions. I'm pretty left leaning [uses personal energy shield to deflect garbage] but the Hierarchy, Camarilla, Pentex, and Technocracy are cartoonishly evil. They're people you should feel no problem being against no matter what your RL politics. The Hierarchy is a fucking ancient Greek slave state.

I flat out don't get any Technocracy defenders as they're a conspiracy theory given life.

The Camarilla are a bunch of feudalists and that's something everyone should agree should be overthrown.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: Mordred Pendragon on May 27, 2020, 10:50:09 AM
Quote from: Orphan81;1131438
Wod and Whitewolf has always had a theme of leftist values running through it to a degree. Something I've never had a problem with. In fact, to give them credit, they were doing it before it was cool.

They did things like feature gay characters before anyone else was.

But when it became mainstream they jumped on the bandwagon towards making some of the products damn right insufferable. I still haven't read all of Geist 2nd Ed and I backed the Kickstarter.

Those opening pages just turn me off so much, because they don't actually tell you what the game is about. It's so focused on being woke, the fact you're playing half-dead mediums is barely mentioned.

Beast was another one that did this so poorly they actually pissed off the very crowd they were trying to court. Beasts were presented as Trans analogues who fed off the pain and fear of others around them... Their enemies were "Heroes" who were people who survived an encounter and gained an obsession with killing Beasts.

Somehow they tried to present the Heroes as being the Badguys when quote "Beasts just want to be left alone
" You know, while they feed off the pain and suffering of others.

Needles to say the LGBT community didn't appreciate being portrayed as literal monsters that hurt people to live. First time I've seen Onyx Path back pedal hard.. And do a complete thematic rewrite. The rewrite made Beasts more palpable and Heroes make more sense as bad guys.

New Beasts were now ancient teachers of humanity about primordial lessons and knowledge. The idea of "Don't put your hand on the burning stove." Heroes originally were about taking that knowledge back with them to the rest of humanity. Somewhere that broke and Heroes became people who learned the wrong lesson and became obsessed with hunting Beasts.

Still this was gamer gate high tide and they couldn't resist putting in a fedora wearing "m'lady" nice guy as a Hero.

If I were to include any form of Beast: The Primordial in my New WoD games, I would have the Beasts exclusively be antagonists and make the Heroes the main protagonists.

Flipping the script by subverting the subversion.

Make the game about the Hero and have the Beasts be exclusively evil antagonists in the vein of Belial's Brood, the Tremere Liches from Awakening, or The Hunt Club, and the whole line about "teaching humanity its primordial fears" being nothing more than a pretentious canard that the Beasts use to justify their vile nature.



On an unrelated note, I've actually considered including the Giovanni in a Requiem game I am planning.

Not the Sangiovanni bloodline, but rather a small coterie of Italian and Italian-American Kindred and a few submissive ghouls nominally belonging to the Invictus.

Their leader is Augustus Giovanni, a Ventrue embraced in the late 1800's or early 1900's and I'm thinking he may have a Nosferatu and a Mekhet on his side as well.

The main inspiration are Lou DiMaggio and the Atwell Avenue Boys from the fourth season of The Sopranos.

They were only in a single episode, but they're one of the most memorable moments of the show because of how creepy and unsettling they were.



Might make Augustus Giovanni a Nosferatu instead of a Ventrue, but he'd have to be one of the "uncanny valley" kind who look normal but are just downright unsettling personality-wise.

At the same time, I think it'd be cool having Augie be a Ventrue with the emphasis being on the predisposition to derangement and degeneration that the Ventrue clan had in the early days of Requiem First Edition.

I do know that Requiem's Nosferatu can be either the grotesque freaks like in Masquerade or can look and seem completely normal but have a disturbing presence in more subtle ways.

Like, the Giovanni Crime Family as a small Invictus coterie with Uncle Augie as the creepy and deranged but weirdly charismatic Ventrue, along with a Mekhet underboss and a trio of Nosferatu made men.

You may have a few ghoul associates too, including a young woman who is an assistant to Augustus Giovanni and on paper seems to be a live-in nurse to help maintain the tradition of the masquerade.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on May 27, 2020, 11:01:04 AM
Quote from: CTPhipps;1131442
Honestly, it bothers me to no end about the people who try and associate the villains of various game-lines with RL institutions. I'm pretty left leaning [uses personal energy shield to deflect garbage] but the Hierarchy, Camarilla, Pentex, and Technocracy are cartoonishly evil. They're people you should feel no problem being against no matter what your RL politics. The Hierarchy is a fucking ancient Greek slave state.
I've never found them particularly compelling as villains, either. I appreciated it when CoD/V5/BL2/whatever opted for a decentralized factionalized dynamic.

Quote from: CTPhipps;1131442
I flat out don't get any Technocracy defenders as they're a conspiracy theory given life.
Tell that to the books written to make them sound heroic.

Quote from: CTPhipps;1131442
The Camarilla are a bunch of feudalists and that's something everyone should agree should be overthrown.
Vampires eat people. Feudalism sounds like a perfect fit for them.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: Orphan81 on May 27, 2020, 11:54:12 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1131441
I think you're being unfair to Chronicles of Darkness because of your nostalgia clouding your judgment. These damn ongoing edition wars are one of the key reasons I left the toxic WoD/CoD fandom. A huge reason why I decided to make my own urban fantasy settings was specifically to get away from that toxic bullshit.

I can say a variation of this about most of the WoD/CoD games to some degree.


There are many things I like about Chronicles, it really comes down to flavor and what you're looking for. There was a time when I liked Chronicles better than WoD. But as I mentioned, the 20th anniversary editions and supplements really brought things back to the modern day and expanded on what I love.

Really for me.. You can't beat the Caine myth of Masquerade. It's so very powerful and evocative. As much as I like Requiem blood potency and how they handle Bloodlines.
When it comes to it, Masquerade and it's secrets and mythos speaks to me far more.

I love many many things about Awakening. It's my favorite of the Chronicle games out of the original 3.. But everything I can do in Awakening, I can do in Ascension but more and better.

I think Chronicles ultimately hobbled itself by being too close to its original source material. It does excel though in the games with no Analogue.. Like Promethean, Vigil, and Deviant.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1131441
Like, Wraith was about the underground railroad rather than ghost stories proper. That's why I didn't like it despite otherwise liking the idea of playable ghosts. I found myself far more interested by Lost Souls and Reaper Madness. Sadly that seems to put me in a minority, since apparently everybody else who played ghost games was only interested in underground railroad stories rather than ghost stories.

This is completely disingenuous. The very opening of Wraith is a comic about a guy killed in jail by two thugs and a ferryman showing him various aspects of the afterlife. The state of play in Wraith presents Renegades, Heretics, and the Heiarchy as equal playable factions.. As well as a very strong emphasis on just being dead and dealing with your unfinished business or exploring the afterlife.

It doesn't open with pages telling you this is a game about speaking truth to power and standing up to the oppressed. It tells you this is a game about the restless dead and their passions that drive them.

You're leaving out the part where I stated all Whitewolf games have a political slant to the left, it's just they used to do it better.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: Orphan81 on May 27, 2020, 12:07:09 PM
Quote from: CTPhipps;1131442
A bunch of strawmanning about the Camarilla and Heiarchy I'm going to ignore to focus on this quote about the Technocracy.

I flat out don't get any Technocracy defenders as they're a conspiracy theory given life.

The Technocracy have gone through retcons in every edition of Mage to 20th anniversary presenting them as a fully playable faction on par with the Traditions if STs want.

This is because even in first edition there was a kernal of something to respect with the Technocracy that's grown from making them one dimensional boring baddies to an interesting and compelling other faction.

Did you like the First two Men in Black movies? Have you ever played X-com? How about James Bond or Anything by Tom Clancy? How about the Show Eureka or the Iron man movies?

Because that's the Technocracy.

Ironman is a guy who uses technology to keep up with Gods and never forgets he's a normal human under it all. He supports government oversight thinking it makes people safer.

Eureka pushes the boundaries of what's possible to make the world a better place with science and technology that will be safe and usable by everyone.. Once they get all the kinks worked out.

The MiB protect the very world from Alien threats on a daily basis letting the rest of the world sleep safe and sound without ever knowing.

Hell just take a look at the new Ducktales series.. It's literally about a Technocrat amalgam that's a family and goes on adventures together.

That is what fans of the Technocracy wanted, because it's cooler and leads to more stories than the bland soulless entity out to crush joy..

And that version of the Technocracy is also there too as much or as little as you want of it.

Personally I like M20s tilt towards Nephandus as being the real villains of the setting and the expansion they received in book of the Fallen 20.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: CTPhipps on May 27, 2020, 12:32:10 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1131447

Vampires eat people. Feudalism sounds like a perfect fit for them.

Exactly.

I mean, yes, it's the game about playing bad guys but remember you're playing bad guys.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: CTPhipps on May 27, 2020, 12:33:51 PM
Quote from: Orphan81;1131455
The Technocracy have gone through retcons in every edition of Mage to 20th anniversary presenting them as a fully playable faction on par with the Traditions if STs want.

This is because even in first edition there was a kernal of something to respect with the Technocracy that's grown from making them one dimensional boring baddies to an interesting and compelling other faction.

Did you like the First two Men in Black movies? Have you ever played X-com? How about James Bond or Anything by Tom Clancy? How about the Show Eureka or the Iron man movies?

Because that's the Technocracy.

Ironman is a guy who uses technology to keep up with Gods and never forgets he's a normal human under it all. He supports government oversight thinking it makes people safer.

Eureka pushes the boundaries of what's possible to make the world a better place with science and technology that will be safe and usable by everyone.. Once they get all the kinks worked out.

The MiB protect the very world from Alien threats on a daily basis letting the rest of the world sleep safe and sound without ever knowing.

Hell just take a look at the new Ducktales series.. It's literally about a Technocrat amalgam that's a family and goes on adventures together.

That is what fans of the Technocracy wanted, because it's cooler and leads to more stories than the bland soulless entity out to crush joy..

And that version of the Technocracy is also there too as much or as little as you want of it.

Personally I like M20s tilt towards Nephandus as being the real villains of the setting and the expansion they received in book of the Fallen 20.

I feel like it's more they wrote the Sons of Ether and Virtual Adepts as shit.

If you're a heroic inventor who wants to save people like Tony Stark, you should be an option for the Sons.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: Mordred Pendragon on May 27, 2020, 12:55:05 PM
Quote from: Orphan81;1131452
There are many things I like about Chronicles, it really comes down to flavor and what you're looking for. There was a time when I liked Chronicles better than WoD. But as I mentioned, the 20th anniversary editions and supplements really brought things back to the modern day and expanded on what I love.

Really for me.. You can't beat the Caine myth of Masquerade. It's so very powerful and evocative. As much as I like Requiem blood potency and how they handle Bloodlines.
When it comes to it, Masquerade and it's secrets and mythos speaks to me far more.

I love many many things about Awakening. It's my favorite of the Chronicle games out of the original 3.. But everything I can do in Awakening, I can do in Ascension but more and better.

I think Chronicles ultimately hobbled itself by being too close to its original source material. It does excel though in the games with no Analogue.. Like Promethean, Vigil, and Deviant.

Vigil is awesome, although I'd say it does have an analogue in the Old World of Darkness.

On the surface, it presents itself as a parallel with Hunter: The Reckoning, but that's not the WoD game that Vigil is aiming for.

Nah, Vigil is what happens when you take The Hunters Hunted from Masquerade 1e or the "Year of the Hunt" books from the Old World of Darkness and upgraded it into a full proper gameline.

Now, personally I don't care too much for the Caine myth in Masquerade and I can take it or leave it, but I was always under the impression that in First Edition and early Second Edition, the Caine origin story was presented as more of a common in-universe theory or old wives' tale that may or may not have been true but was prevalent enough in the Dark Ages to have some weight with the Elders who remember those days.

It fit well with the early materials that suggested Gehenna was cyclical and how nobody knew the true identity of the Antediluvians or even if they were still alive (or undead, as it were)

On an unrelated note, what do you think of my take on a Requiem 1e version of the Giovanni?

I figured making them more of a coterie or faction would jive better with the localized and decentralized mindset early Requiem had.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: ShieldWife on May 27, 2020, 01:00:05 PM
Beast is a bizarre game and for WW, that is saying a lot. I haven't read it, but I've read bits and pieces including most of the review at Fatal and Friends. Beasts seem completely evil to me, it seems like playing a Beast chronicle would be like playing the Sabbat, Specters, or Black Spiral Dancers - an exercise in what it's like to play a completely unredeemable monster. Maybe even worse than other evil WW splats, because at least some other groups have a higher goal, the Beasts just exist to feed their compulsion to cause suffering with the flimsy justification that they are somehow teaching lessons by tormenting and murdering people. Which makes it all the more bizarre how self righteous the book in in justifying the Beasts and condemning their victims who try to fight back - the Heroes. I don't really know the all of the fact of what exactly Matt McFarland did - rape, statutory rape, sexual harassment, etc. I don't know, but if he is some kind of sexual predator, it adds an entirely new light to Beast and causes it to make more sense. I doubt I'll ever use that game for anything, though if I did it would be villains.

As for drawing parallels between other WoD or CoD villainous factions and real life groups, I can see why some would do it because that is the intent with which the writers created those organizations. Pentax is almost straight out of Captain Planet, meant to represent big bad evil corporations that pollute and supposedly make the world horrible.

The Technocracy is a bit more complex. They do draw on a lot of real life ideas, but I see them in a much more morally gray light. They are certainly totalitarian and a conspiracy that controls and oppresses humanity, though it could be argued that their activities have done a lot more harm than good. It's hard to make such judgement in a setting where reality itself is subjective. I honestly think that depending on the context in which they are presented, that the Technocracy can make both good heroes and good villains. In some ways, I find them more compelling and interesting than the Traditions.

The Camarilla aren't as potentially heroic, but they are also an organization with shades of gray, maybe dark gray, and while maybe not heroes, they can at least be the protagonists in all manner of interesting stories. Just as many sorts of feudal or aristocratic systems through out history and fiction can be the good guys. Like the Technocracy, they can be good bad guys too.

I'm a lot less familiar with CoD than WoD, but is it that woke? I thought that one of the goals of CoD was to make it less political than WoD? Though, I guess these days just about every sort of fantasy or science fiction is being politicized. Which is a shame because I enjoy escapism.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1131458
Vigil is awesome, although I'd say it does have an analogue in the Old World of Darkness.

On the surface, it presents itself as a parallel with Hunter: The Reckoning, but that's not the WoD game that Vigil is aiming for.

Nah, Vigil is what happens when you take The Hunters Hunted from Masquerade 1e or the "Year of the Hunt" books from the Old World of Darkness and upgraded it into a full proper gameline.

Now, personally I don't care too much for the Caine myth in Masquerade and I can take it or leave it, but I was always under the impression that in First Edition and early Second Edition, the Caine origin story was presented as more of a common in-universe theory or old wives' tale that may or may not have been true but was prevalent enough in the Dark Ages to have some weight with the Elders who remember those days.

It fit well with the early materials that suggested Gehenna was cyclical and how nobody knew the true identity of the Antediluvians or even if they were still alive (or undead, as it were)

On an unrelated note, what do you think of my take on a Requiem 1e version of the Giovanni?

I figured making them more of a coterie or faction would jive better with the localized and decentralized mindset early Requiem had.

I liked The Hunters Hunted, I haven't played or read Hunter: the Vigil, but if it captures that feel maybe I should check it out.

I think that the Caine myth is interesting, but I always preferred the idea that the origin of vampires as well as the existence of Antediluvians was a mystery and that the Caine myth may or may not have some basis in fact.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: Orphan81 on May 27, 2020, 01:03:14 PM
Quote from: CTPhipps;1131457
I feel like it's more they wrote the Sons of Ether and Virtual Adepts as shit.

If you're a heroic inventor who wants to save people like Tony Stark, you should be an option for the Sons.

I agree with you. The SoE are one of the most problematic Traditions. In the age we live in with pseudoscience and science denial being a real danger.. Having a group whose initial theme was championing discarded scientific ideas was a bad move.

Over the years they've tried to rehabilitate them, but it never quite works as they are the only science group among the Mages. There are "Technomancers" in the other Traditions.. But the Etherites themselves are not Technomancers so to speak... They're using will working through science, except it's not real science except okay maybe it is.. So now their the group if you want to play Rick Sanchez or Doc Brown, which is very limited in scope.

The VAs are fine though being the snti-establishment Techno group. Information wants to be free. Things like wiki leaks, Snowden and The Matrix movies give them thematic punch.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: CTPhipps on May 27, 2020, 01:03:39 PM
Quote from: ShieldWife;1131460
I'm a lot less familiar with CoD than WoD, but is it that woke? I thought that one of the goals of CoD was to make it less political than WoD? Though, I guess these days just about every sort of fantasy or science fiction is being politicized. Which is a shame because I enjoy escapism.

Well WOD was all about the Gothic PUNK, at least in the early editions of Anarchs vs. Camarilla [which then the new owners ditched for Camarilla vs. Sabbat]. Requiem was deeply apolitical.

It actually was kind of ridiculous at times.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61zXZWVqv-L._SX258_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

I bought New Wave Requiem to do an 80s themed campaign about Vampires. It completely avoided politics except for a vague mention of religion making a comeback in public discourse.

I mean, no matter your politics, the 80s were a fucking political time. Everyone had an opinion on the communists, Reagan, War on Drugs, Thatcher [if you were British], soccer moms terrified of everything their kids might be doing, punk, the economy, AIDs, and aftermath of Vietnam.

Your opinion might be WRONG but you had an opinion.

It kinda ruined the book for me.

If I want to play Call of Duty: Black Ops and kill a bunch of KGB vampires or do some kind of Belial's Brood version of Red Dawn that is impossible. Ditto going against a bunch of smarmy Wallstreet Gordon Gecko types.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: Orphan81 on May 27, 2020, 01:19:28 PM
Quote from: Doc Sammy;1131458
Vigil is awesome, although I'd say it does have an analogue in the Old World of Darkness.

On the surface, it presents itself as a parallel with Hunter: The Reckoning, but that's not the WoD game that Vigil is aiming for.

Nah, Vigil is what happens when you take The Hunters Hunted from Masquerade 1e or the "Year of the Hunt" books from the Old World of Darkness and upgraded it into a full proper gameline.

Now, personally I don't care too much for the Caine myth in Masquerade and I can take it or leave it, but I was always under the impression that in First Edition and early Second Edition, the Caine origin story was presented as more of a common in-universe theory or old wives' tale that may or may not have been true but was prevalent enough in the Dark Ages to have some weight with the Elders who remember those days.

It fit well with the early materials that suggested Gehenna was cyclical and how nobody knew the true identity of the Antediluvians or even if they were still alive (or undead, as it were)

On an unrelated note, what do you think of my take on a Requiem 1e version of the Giovanni?

I figured making them more of a coterie or faction would jive better with the localized and decentralized mindset early Requiem had.
There's really so much you can do there which speaks to the strengths of Requiem and reminds me of things I do love about it. Starting with the basis of it being a Crime family subfaction you could go with Invictus like you originally stated or even the Carthians as well. It would depend on what aspect of the family you wanted to emphasize.

Is it ultimate loyalty to the Don at the top, Augustus? Or is it he's in charge but it's more focused on the coterie as a whole?

You also have the options on how you want to present them. It seems like you want them to be not so much a nation wide group, but like an actual local crime syndicate. So I think the biggest descion is do you want them to be a faction or a bloodline?

A subfaction opens it up to multi-clan membership. Hell it could even be a cross-covenant faction that's come together to run things.

But a Bloodline makes them much tighter. You could make it one of the multi-clan bloodlines. Split the difference and have it be both Nosferatu and Ventrue with ultimate Allegiance to Augustus.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: ShieldWife on May 27, 2020, 01:21:51 PM
Quote from: CTPhipps;1131463
Well WOD was all about the Gothic PUNK, at least in the early editions of Anarchs vs. Camarilla [which then the new owners ditched for Camarilla vs. Sabbat]. Requiem was deeply apolitical.

It actually was kind of ridiculous at times.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61zXZWVqv-L._SX258_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

I bought New Wave Requiem to do an 80s themed campaign about Vampires. It completely avoided politics except for a vague mention of religion making a comeback in public discourse.

I mean, no matter your politics, the 80s were a fucking political time. Everyone had an opinion on the communists, Reagan, War on Drugs, Thatcher [if you were British], soccer moms terrified of everything their kids might be doing, punk, the economy, AIDs, and aftermath of Vietnam.

Your opinion might be WRONG but you had an opinion.

It kinda ruined the book for me.

If I want to play Call of Duty: Black Ops and kill a bunch of KGB vampires or do some kind of Belial's Brood version of Red Dawn that is impossible. Ditto going against a bunch of smarmy Wallstreet Gordon Gecko types.


Well, V:tM had certain times that were political in a sense, but they usually didn't directly tie into modern real world human politics. The clash between the Elders and the Anarchs was a major theme in early V:tM, that was eclipsed by the Camarilla vs Sabbat struggle later on, which was a shame because I liked Anarch vs Elder. But the Camarilla is a semi-feudal system run by undying elders, you don't have to be a Marxist or SJW to be opposed to that. A person's real world politics aren't going to play that much of a role in their feeling about this vampire faction vs that one. Also, while the world of vampires is highly political - both in that they are constantly scheming against each other and that they control politicians, it isn't partisan.

Of course the 1980's were a political time, just like any decade is, but do I really need a role playing book to teach me about the Cold War, Ronald Reagan, or Margaret Thatcher? A vampire book should touch on some of the cultural trends that might influence vampires - like how much promiscuity is condemned or tolerated through the 60's, 70's, and 80's and how it affects hunting, but is doesn't need to make political statements.

With Werewolf: the Apocalypse, things became WAY more political in the sense of having a obvert real world political agendas.

How was opposing the KGB or Wall Street tycoons impossible?
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: CTPhipps on May 27, 2020, 01:25:07 PM
Quote from: Orphan81;1131461
I agree with you. The SoE are one of the most problematic Traditions. In the age we live in with pseudoscience and science denial being a real danger.. Having a group whose initial theme was championing discarded scientific ideas was a bad move.

Over the years they've tried to rehabilitate them, but it never quite works as they are the only science group among the Mages. There are "Technomancers" in the other Traditions.. But the Etherites themselves are not Technomancers so to speak... They're using will working through science, except it's not real science except okay maybe it is.. So now their the group if you want to play Rick Sanchez or Doc Brown, which is very limited in scope.

The VAs are fine though being the snti-establishment Techno group. Information wants to be free. Things like wiki leaks, Snowden and The Matrix movies give them thematic punch.

Yeah, I don't think we need any Etherites defending homoepathy. I want to have a bunch of Etherites fighting against the oppressive comspiracy trying to keep you from introducing the cure to AIDs to the masses.

Or, hell, the big ass mecha suit superhero.

Quote from: ShieldWife;1131468
How was opposing the KGB or Wall Street tycoons impossible?

The short version being that there was no support for it. I could make up material for the Cold War and evil businessmen for the 80s but why did I buy the supplement in the first place then?

And I agree with you that I don't think the games have to be 100% inherently politcal. A Red State Republican and a Blue State Democrat and a anarchist nutjob are all going to want to oppose the Camarilla in the Anarchs because no one born in the 20th century is going to want to bend down their knee to a feudal system that predates their great-great-grandfathers. Indeed, I always liked that element of the Anarchs. They're a bunch of people united by their hatred of the Camarilla, not because of their beliefs of what comes next. I appreciate that and while I like games having political content, I think a layer of separation is good.

I did this article on the subject:

TOP TEN TIPS ON PLAYING THE ANARCHS

http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/2020/04/ten-tips-to-playing-anarchs.html
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: CTPhipps on May 27, 2020, 01:26:26 PM
Quote from: ShieldWife;1131468
How was opposing the KGB or Wall Street tycoons impossible?

The short version being that there was no support for it. I could make up material for the Cold War and evil businessmen for the 80s but why did I buy the supplement in the first place then?
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: ShieldWife on May 27, 2020, 01:30:56 PM
Quote from: CTPhipps;1131469
The short version being that there was no support for it. I could make up material for the Cold War and evil businessmen for the 80s but why did I buy the supplement in the first place then?

I don't know why you bought it, I haven't read it, but I presume it has lot's of material in it regarding the 1980's and how vampires fit in. There are any number of things going on in the real world 1980's that could be incorporated into a vampire game, just because it's not included doesn't mean that people are hindered from including it.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: CTPhipps on May 27, 2020, 01:33:07 PM
Quote from: ShieldWife;1131471
I don't know why you bought it, I haven't read it, but I presume it has lot's of material in it regarding the 1980's and how vampires fit in. There are any number of things going on in the real world 1980's that could be incorporated into a vampire game, just because it's not included doesn't mean that people are hindered from including it.

Eh, I'm just saying I felt the supplement wasn't very useful because it didn't contain a good way to incorporate the politics of the time into games. YMMV.

It seemed more interested in talking about video stores and music.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on May 27, 2020, 01:37:39 PM
Quote from: Orphan81;1131452
There are many things I like about Chronicles, it really comes down to flavor and what you're looking for. There was a time when I liked Chronicles better than WoD. But as I mentioned, the 20th anniversary editions and supplements really brought things back to the modern day and expanded on what I love.
None of which appeals to me. I grew up with the internet, so all this talk of updates sounds to me like "how do you do fellow kids?" ad nauseam. I guess I was just born a generation too late to appreciate WoD.

Quote from: Orphan81;1131452
Really for me.. You can't beat the Caine myth of Masquerade. It's so very powerful and evocative. As much as I like Requiem blood potency and how they handle Bloodlines.
When it comes to it, Masquerade and it's secrets and mythos speaks to me far more.
Firstly, this is a false dichotomy since the translation guide is a thing and you can just import the elements you like. That's the point of this thread.

Secondly, you're clearly heavily biased in favor of VTM based on emotions. I see nothing about the Cain-with-an-e myth that makes it any more special than anything else. Aglondir's proposed OSR game about archaeology sounds way more mysterious and interesting to me.

Quote from: Orphan81;1131452
I love many many things about Awakening. It's my favorite of the Chronicle games out of the original 3.. But everything I can do in Awakening, I can do in Ascension but more and better.
Again, that's sound like the nostalgia goggles talking.

The bleeding edge or whatever CoD ebook provided rules for stargates and space opera tropes. The translation guide handled other stuff. I can do everything in Ascension with Awakening but more and better. At least in the literal sense, because I can have the Seers, Atlanteans, Technocracies, Kyriarchies (https://mobunited.livejournal.com/48867.html), and whatever fighting with fleets of millions of starships across thousands of light years of space and shit. To say nothing of the multiverse shenanigans in the Continuum  (http://evildrganymede.net/wp/rpgs/continuum/)fanbook.

Quote from: Orphan81;1131452
I think Chronicles ultimately hobbled itself by being too close to its original source material. It does excel though in the games with no Analogue.. Like Promethean, Vigil, and Deviant.
In some ways I can agree. CoD basically copied the underworld and penumbra (now twilight) from WoD but with a new coat of paint. I can't say I'm a fan of WW idiosyncrasies like that. I prefer the way that old discontinued wraith fansplat (http://www.cattail.nu/wraithproject/archives/wraiththearising.html) handled it.

Quote from: Orphan81;1131452
This is completely disingenuous. The very opening of Wraith is a comic about a guy killed in jail by two thugs and a ferryman showing him various aspects of the afterlife. The state of play in Wraith presents Renegades, Heretics, and the Heiarchy as equal playable factions.. As well as a very strong emphasis on just being dead and dealing with your unfinished business or exploring the afterlife.

It doesn't open with pages telling you this is a game about speaking truth to power and standing up to the oppressed. It tells you this is a game about the restless dead and their passions that drive them.

You're leaving out the part where I stated all Whitewolf games have a political slant to the left, it's just they used to do it better.
I'm not comparing Wraith with Geist. I'm criticizing Wraith based on its own merits and on interactions with the fandom. In my experience, fans liked the underground railroad more than the ghost part. Which alienated me, because I wanted to play ghost stories.

I don't like the renegades, heretics, or the hierarchy. I was disappointed when Geist wasn't about playable ghosts.

As much as you might be obsessed with WoD as being the best game since sliced bread, I don't see the appeal.

Quote from: ShieldWife;1131460
I don't know, but if he is some kind of sexual predator, it adds an entirely new light to Beast and causes it to make more sense. I doubt I'll ever use that game for anything, though if I did it would be villains.
Yeah, the game sounds absolutely repulsive to me because it was written as pedophile apologia. Not only that, but Beasts are psychic vampires and therefore their theme is already diluted.

Quote from: ShieldWife;1131460
I'm a lot less familiar with CoD than WoD, but is it that woke? I thought that one of the goals of CoD was to make it less political than WoD? Though, I guess these days just about every sort of fantasy or science fiction is being politicized. Which is a shame because I enjoy escapism.
It is still political. The anarchs and camarilla were more or less retained in the form of the carthians and invictus. The path of night was expanded into the lancea+sanctum, the tzimisce philosophy underpins the ordo dracul (although a lot less pointlessly evil), and the bahari probably inspired the circle of the crone.

Aside from changing the window dressing, VTR is essentially the same game as VTM. At least, it was V5 before V5 existed. It also has way more clan/bloodline bloat than VTM ever did.


Quote from: ShieldWife;1131460
I liked The Hunters Hunted, I haven't played or read Hunter: the Vigil, but if it captures that feel maybe I should check it out.
Vigil takes the approach of having multiple unrelated groups of monster hunters with distinct motives. The Lucifuge recruits from the supposed children of Lucifer, the Cheiron Group harvests monsters for pharmaceutical research, Ashwood Abbey hunts monsters for sport, Task Force Valkyrie works on the government's payroll, Network Zero are amateur paranormal investigators who coordinate on social media, etc.

Easily one of the single best games ever produced by WW. I'm continually annoyed none of the other games were designed like it was.

Quote from: ShieldWife;1131460
I think that the Caine myth is interesting, but I always preferred the idea that the origin of vampires as well as the existence of Antediluvians was a mystery and that the Caine myth may or may not have some basis in fact.
VTR has always had better support for alternative mythologies. I can't remember how many books they had which dealt with the subject, but one was definitely titled Mythologies.

I was always frustrated that Forsaken and Awakening opted for mono-myths rather than the more mysterious archaeology angle that Requiem tried to do.

Quote from: ShieldWife;1131471
I don't know why you bought it, I haven't read it, but I presume it has lot's of material in it regarding the 1980's and how vampires fit in. There are any number of things going on in the real world 1980's that could be incorporated into a vampire game, just because it's not included doesn't mean that people are hindered from including it.


For example, the morbus bloodline could have been worked into the AIDS crisis. Since they only drink diseased blood, then the gay community would be a smorgasbord for them. I could imagine that San Francisco into contemporary times could have hosted a prominent morbus community who had recruited from those afflicted by the crisis.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: ShieldWife on May 27, 2020, 01:46:59 PM
Quote from: CTPhipps;1131473
Eh, I'm just saying I felt the supplement wasn't very useful because it didn't contain a good way to incorporate the politics of the time into games. YMMV.

It seemed more interested in talking about video stores and music.

Well, that makes sense. Sometimes I feel like supplements that cover particular places and/or periods in time have a difficult balancing act. What information do they include about the real world, because there are mountains of books written about various places and times and an RPG book isn't going to do it justice. They RPG should give us ways of tying that time and place to the focus of the game, vampires in this case, which must entail giving some very limited information about what is happening there and then. This could be hard too when they are detailing some other nation and culture because there will necessarily be a tendency to stereotype it.

Quote from: CTPhipps;1131469
And I agree with you that I don't think the games have to be 100% inherently politcal. A Red State Republican and a Blue State Democrat and a anarchist nutjob are all going to want to oppose the Camarilla in the Anarchs because no one born in the 20th century is going to want to bend down their knee to a feudal system that predates their great-great-grandfathers. Indeed, I always liked that element of the Anarchs. They're a bunch of people united by their hatred of the Camarilla, not because of their beliefs of what comes next. I appreciate that and while I like games having political content, I think a layer of separation is good.

I did this article on the subject:

TOP TEN TIPS ON PLAYING THE ANARCHS

http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/2020/04/ten-tips-to-playing-anarchs.html

Yeah, I've read that and enjoyed it. I do have a point of contention about point 4, because I don't think that most Anarchs expect to have total freedom. The reasonable Anarchs, which should be the majority, should expect that any system that they operate under will have some kind of rules and restrictions. Sometimes I think that there was too little information on what the Anarchs actually did want. I could imagine that many Anarchs would just want the Camarilla (or a system that replaces them) to incorporate some Enlightenment era ideas - some kind of democratic voice for younger vampires, a legal system which protects the accused with due process and a presumption of innocence, right not toe be killed on a whim by the Prince, Sherif, or Archon. That sort of thing.

I could see a discussion along those lines as an interesting role playing scenario, maybe even for a LARP. A bunch of Anarchs are together and are discussing their vision or a better vampiric society, with opinions running the gamut from minor Camarilla reforms (Prince can't kill you without a trial) to another oppressive system with the Anarchs as the new leaders to the complete abolishment of any vampiric law (so actual Anarchy) to maybe even more radical ideas like humanity and vampires living openly together.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: PencilBoy99 on May 27, 2020, 01:54:12 PM
Whenever I run VTM Larps I always include CoD stuff and people are very excited about it (unless I'm contradicting VTM lore, in which case they flip out).
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: CTPhipps on May 27, 2020, 02:09:52 PM
Quote from: ShieldWife;1131477
Well, that makes sense. Sometimes I feel like supplements that cover particular places and/or periods in time have a difficult balancing act. What information do they include about the real world, because there are mountains of books written about various places and times and an RPG book isn't going to do it justice. They RPG should give us ways of tying that time and place to the focus of the game, vampires in this case, which must entail giving some very limited information about what is happening there and then. This could be hard too when they are detailing some other nation and culture because there will necessarily be a tendency to stereotype it.



Yeah, I've read that and enjoyed it. I do have a point of contention about point 4, because I don't think that most Anarchs expect to have total freedom. The reasonable Anarchs, which should be the majority, should expect that any system that they operate under will have some kind of rules and restrictions. Sometimes I think that there was too little information on what the Anarchs actually did want. I could imagine that many Anarchs would just want the Camarilla (or a system that replaces them) to incorporate some Enlightenment era ideas - some kind of democratic voice for younger vampires, a legal system which protects the accused with due process and a presumption of innocence, right not toe be killed on a whim by the Prince, Sherif, or Archon. That sort of thing.

I could see a discussion along those lines as an interesting role playing scenario, maybe even for a LARP. A bunch of Anarchs are together and are discussing their vision or a better vampiric society, with opinions running the gamut from minor Camarilla reforms (Prince can't kill you without a trial) to another oppressive system with the Anarchs as the new leaders to the complete abolishment of any vampiric law (so actual Anarchy) to maybe even more radical ideas like humanity and vampires living openly together.

You're definitely right on that. I suppose I was leaning heavily on the idea of "make sure people don't confuse Anarchs for noble hearted Robin Hoods."
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on May 27, 2020, 02:25:51 PM
Quote from: ShieldWife;1131477
Yeah, I've read that and enjoyed it. I do have a point of contention about point 4, because I don't think that most Anarchs expect to have total freedom. The reasonable Anarchs, which should be the majority, should expect that any system that they operate under will have some kind of rules and restrictions. Sometimes I think that there was too little information on what the Anarchs actually did want. I could imagine that many Anarchs would just want the Camarilla (or a system that replaces them) to incorporate some Enlightenment era ideas - some kind of democratic voice for younger vampires, a legal system which protects the accused with due process and a presumption of innocence, right not toe be killed on a whim by the Prince, Sherif, or Archon. That sort of thing.

I could see a discussion along those lines as an interesting role playing scenario, maybe even for a LARP. A bunch of Anarchs are together and are discussing their vision or a better vampiric society, with opinions running the gamut from minor Camarilla reforms (Prince can't kill you without a trial) to another oppressive system with the Anarchs as the new leaders to the complete abolishment of any vampiric law (so actual Anarchy) to maybe even more radical ideas like humanity and vampires living openly together.
VTR beat you to the punch, I guess.

The way the vampire hierarchy works is deeply affected by a new rule for vampirism introduced in VTR (at least in 1e, I think it was removed in 2e): increasing blood-potency forces vampires to seek increasingly refined sources of blood, ultimately resulting in them being unable to feed except on vampire blood. So eventually (in combination with a vaguely-defined "call to torpor" IIRC) elder vampires will enter hibernation to reduce BP over years of sleep, handing their affairs over to loyal vassals. This allows you to create a new PC who is actually an ancient vampire whose stats were reduced by a long sleep or conversely the child of an elder vampire who created you to take over their affairs while they slumber. (Also, elder vampires don't automatically have perfect recollections of their existence, but I think that was removed in 2e too.)

In other words, it's a variation of the leap-frog government used by the vampires in Underworld. I wouldn't be surprised if Justin Achilli copied the idea. But, again, I think it was removed in 2e because it wasn't similar enough to VTM or something (don't quote me on that, though, since I stopped following CoD after the 2e came out due to exhaustion with the edition wars). But I digress.

Not only that, but the various "covenants" (sects) are designed in a toolkit manner. Since cities are politically distinct a la V5 and always have been (because the vampires never developed a unified global government, although at least one book introduced various conspiracies fighting for control), the covenants in a given city may be very distinct from their ideological cousins in another nearby city.

As much as people like to rag on both V5 and VTR, VTR has had a lot more time to refine the V5 formula. Listen to the fanboys sometime for an opposing perspective.

EDIT: I refreshed my memory by reading the unofficial white wolf wiki, and they basically said that the vampire's soul wanders the afterlife during torpor and can experience changes to memory and personality due to seeing the past and future and stuff. It's apparently totally optional, but it's useful for mystery-focused games I guess.

Quote from: PencilBoy99;1131478
Whenever I run VTM Larps I always include CoD stuff and people are very excited about it (unless I'm contradicting VTM lore, in which case they flip out).
Sounds as horrible as usual for this fandom. Have any juicy horror stories to share? Or non-horror stories?
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: Orphan81 on May 27, 2020, 03:26:55 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1131476
None of which appeals to me. I grew up with the internet, so all this talk of updates sounds to me like "how do you do fellow kids?" ad nauseam. I guess I was just born a generation too late to appreciate WoD.

Firstly, this is a false dichotomy since the translation guide is a thing and you can just import the elements you like. That's the point of this thread.

Secondly, you're clearly heavily biased in favor of VTM based on emotions. I see nothing about the Cain-with-an-e myth that makes it any more special than anything else. Aglondir's proposed OSR game about archaeology sounds way more mysterious and interesting to me.

Again, that's sound like the nostalgia goggles talking.


False Dichotomy nothing. The Translation guide goes both ways. So arguing "Oh I can take anything from Classic and bring it to Chronicles" is a strawman argument, because I can do the same damn thing the other way. Also, get this through your head, because you can't seem to pay attention. I LIKE Chronicles of Darkness.

Now on to your other point about how "Updated" sounds like "Hello fellow kids". I'd blame your lack of comprehension on your age then, but Doc Sammy seems to have very little trouble understanding what I've written. I'll preface this by saying I own every core book and supplement of both Chronicles and World of Darkness. I like both, I buy and read both.

Now 20th anniversary updated the original World of Darkness games as new editions do. They changed things, they added things, and they took out other things. I used to think Awakening was better than Mage based off of what I could do with Mage as of Revised edition..

Then M20 came out, and it's support. M20 cleaned up what you could do in Mage, it expanded on things, it added more, and it removed elements that sucked. It presented a greater tool box and the best version of the Ascension setting yet. That version of Ascension, eclipsed Awakening 2nd edition for me. Whereas previously, Awakening offered better tools and setting material... The expanded material on Ascension just said "Our setting is cooler."

Awakening is playing Harry Potter. Boiling it down to it's core, it is a game about WIZARDS. And that is cool, if you want to play a tight focused game that's much more like Harry Dresden and Harry Potter Awakening is that.

But I can do that in Ascension as well. I can have the Order of Hermes, and Death Eaters in the form of the Nephandus. But more than that, I can bring in so much more. I can be the descendant of a God, I can be a Cyborg, I can be a lost time traveler. I can be an alchemical clone, I can be a Templar whose empowered by God.I can be a magic user from an alternate universe. It's not just wizards, it's WILL WORKERS, and the most important part of the setting, is my belief on how my powers work, and where they come from.. and that leads to such awesome characters.

I've ran campaigns of both Awakening and Requiem. It's not "Nostalgia" goggles, it's what I actually did with both settings and which gave me more enjoyment and more possibilities. My Awakening campaign ended with an epic fight in Post-Katrina flooded New Orleans as the Cabal fought against the Prince of 1,000 leaves and it's desire to bring the Abyssal version of New Orleans over to replace the original. It was a blast, my players loved it. Just as they loved my Requiem campaign that revolved around finding the hidden heart of Dracula.

But, unless I have a very specific idea, The World of Darkness gives me more things to work with out of the Box, than Chronicles does.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1131476

The bleeding edge or whatever CoD ebook provided rules for stargates and space opera tropes. The translation guide handled other stuff. I can do everything in Ascension with Awakening but more and better. At least in the literal sense, because I can have the Seers, Atlanteans, Technocracies, Kyriarchies (https://mobunited.livejournal.com/48867.html), and whatever fighting with fleets of millions of starships across thousands of light years of space and shit. To say nothing of the multiverse shenanigans in the Continuum  (http://evildrganymede.net/wp/rpgs/continuum/)fanbook.


This means absolutely nothing to me. I don't want Vampires and Werewolves in my spaceships.. and if I want Fantasy Cyberpunk I have Shadowrun which does it better than anyone else.


Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1131476

I'm not comparing Wraith with Geist. I'm criticizing Wraith based on its own merits and on interactions with the fandom. In my experience, fans liked the underground railroad more than the ghost part. Which alienated me, because I wanted to play ghost stories.

I don't like the renegades, heretics, or the hierarchy. I was disappointed when Geist wasn't about playable ghosts.

So you admit you've never even read Wraith, and you talked to what 2 or 3 people about it? Because I'm pretty active in the Wraith fan community, and "Underground Railroad" doesn't come up. You're trying to cover your tracks because you admit you don't really know much about the setting and are just talking out your ass.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1131476

As much as you might be obsessed with WoD as being the best game since sliced bread, I don't see the appeal.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Okay I have to change my vote now on who has the most unhealthy relationship with Whitewolf... It's you, way you.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: Orphan81 on May 27, 2020, 03:33:01 PM
Quote from: CTPhipps;1131469


And I agree with you that I don't think the games have to be 100% inherently politcal. A Red State Republican and a Blue State Democrat and a anarchist nutjob are all going to want to oppose the Camarilla in the Anarchs because no one born in the 20th century is going to want to bend down their knee to a feudal system that predates their great-great-grandfathers. Indeed, I always liked that element of the Anarchs. They're a bunch of people united by their hatred of the Camarilla, not because of their beliefs of what comes next. I appreciate that and while I like games having political content, I think a layer of separation is good.


The problem here though is... Lots of people LIKE the Camarilla. I'm one of them. I love every faction in Vampire, and I've run successful campaigns for each of them. The Camarilla are not something you should inherently oppose just out of principal. First, they're the biggest enforcers of the Masquerade out of all the factions. Which in turns means, they're also the most protective of the kine out of all the factions. They also promote following the path of Humanity more than any other faction. All of these are for completely selfish reasons. Keep the kine ignorant, don't make waves, we have to eat.. so don't go around being a monster. They're the defacto greatest bulwark against the Sabbat.

Players like the Camarilla because scheming undead politics is fun, and they want to be part of it. The Camarilla also has Archons and Justicars, who hand out missions to travel around and fight things that are a threat to the Masquerade and the Camarilla as a whole. The Camarilla are not "The bad guys" because Vampire doesn't have "Bad guys" outside of individual Vampires... and the Sabbat is only the "Bad guys" from the perspective of Humans.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: CTPhipps on May 27, 2020, 03:49:13 PM
Quote from: Orphan81;1131490
The problem here though is... Lots of people LIKE the Camarilla. I'm one of them. I love every faction in Vampire, and I've run successful campaigns for each of them. The Camarilla are not something you should inherently oppose just out of principal. First, they're the biggest enforcers of the Masquerade out of all the factions. Which in turns means, they're also the most protective of the kine out of all the factions. They also promote following the path of Humanity more than any other faction. All of these are for completely selfish reasons. Keep the kine ignorant, don't make waves, we have to eat.. so don't go around being a monster. They're the defacto greatest bulwark against the Sabbat.

Players like the Camarilla because scheming undead politics is fun, and they want to be part of it. The Camarilla also has Archons and Justicars, who hand out missions to travel around and fight things that are a threat to the Masquerade and the Camarilla as a whole. The Camarilla are not "The bad guys" because Vampire doesn't have "Bad guys" outside of individual Vampires... and the Sabbat is only the "Bad guys" from the perspective of Humans.

"Hey, anyone who wants to reign in Hell must serve there first."
-One of my Anarch PCs on the Camarilla's followers
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: Mordred Pendragon on May 27, 2020, 04:33:12 PM
Quote from: CTPhipps;1131493
"Hey, anyone who wants to reign in Hell must serve there first."
-One of my Anarch PCs on the Camarilla's followers

CT Phipps, mind if I ask what you think of my idea for a reimagined Giovanni for Requiem 1e?
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: CTPhipps on May 27, 2020, 04:35:06 PM
Quote from: Doc Sammy;1131501
CT Phipps, mind if I ask what you think of my idea for a reimagined Giovanni for Requiem 1e?

I think you did an extremely good job there. The Giovanni as a offshoot of the Ventrue, who are a bunch of kooky insane old aristocrats anyway in Requiem, makes a lot more sense than the Sangiovanni. If you're going to do a mafia-based game, you might as well keep a laser focus and making Augustus a Don figure you can actually oppose isn't a bad idea.

:two thumbs up:
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: Mordred Pendragon on May 27, 2020, 04:36:48 PM
Quote from: CTPhipps;1131502
I think you did an extremely good job there. The Giovanni as a offshoot of the Ventrue, who are a bunch of kooky insane old aristocrats anyway in Requiem, makes a lot more sense than the Sangiovanni.

I'm glad you like it, that actually means a lot to me, especially from a WoD veteran such as yourself
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: CTPhipps on May 27, 2020, 04:39:50 PM
Quote from: Doc Sammy;1131503
I'm glad you like it, that actually means a lot to me, especially from a WoD veteran such as yourself

Aw, thank you.

The focus on family and brutality of the mafia life means I think the Giovanni can be a good fit for a coterie of related vampires in the city.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on May 27, 2020, 04:47:05 PM
Quote from: Orphan81;1131489
I LIKE Chronicles of Darkness.
I don't. Those damned edition wars, which you are still waging right now, drove me away.

People kept telling me that I sucked for liking CoD. White Wolf themselves got into it. I said "screw you guys" and left the fandom out of sheer disgust.

Quote from: Orphan81;1131489
Awakening is playing Harry Potter. Boiling it down to it's core, it is a game about WIZARDS. And that is cool, if you want to play a tight focused game that's much more like Harry Dresden and Harry Potter Awakening is that.

But I can do that in Ascension as well. I can have the Order of Hermes, and Death Eaters in the form of the Nephandus. But more than that, I can bring in so much more. I can be the descendant of a God, I can be a Cyborg, I can be a lost time traveler. I can be an alchemical clone, I can be a Templar whose empowered by God.I can be a magic user from an alternate universe. It's not just wizards, it's WILL WORKERS, and the most important part of the setting, is my belief on how my powers work, and where they come from.. and that leads to such awesome characters.
That is a false dichotomy. There's zero reason why you can't do all of that in Awakening besides a stupid excuse like "But Atlantis!"

In fact, you can play all that with Risus (https://web.archive.org/web/20130329001225/http://tailkinker.contrabandent.com/mage.pdf).

The distinctions between the games are window dressing. They only matter if you're super-invested in them. I have long since lost any investment I once had after years of flame wars wearing me down.

Quote from: Orphan81;1131489
So you admit you've never even read Wraith, and you talked to what 2 or 3 people about it? Because I'm pretty active in the Wraith fan community, and "Underground Railroad" doesn't come up. You're trying to cover your tracks because you admit you don't really know much about the setting and are just talking out your ass.
I read a bunch of books and talked to a bunch of people, but it's been over a decade so excuse me for being rusty.

The problem with Wraith was that it was trying to be two very different things. On one hand you had traditional ghost stories and variations thereof. On the other you had the WW-isms like the underworld politics, underground railroad, and absurdly oppressive bleakness even for a game about playing ghosts. I couldn't really get into it until I read an unofficial CoD remake (among others, there were several in the mid-late 2000s that I vaguely remember), which focused extensively on the ghost stories part and redesigned the factions to be implicated in that.

When I tried to find anybody interested in playing something that focused on the ghost stories bit, the responses I got were that if it doesn't have the metaplot, oblivion, hierarchy, yadda yadda then it wasn't worth playing. That was really disheartening for me. Even on this very forum, I had at least one Wraith fan tell me that they only played for the underground railroad.

In fact, I can't remember a single positive gaming experience with either World of Darkness or Chronicles of Darkness.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: CTPhipps on May 27, 2020, 04:50:15 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1131505
I don't. Those damned edition wars, which you are still waging right now, drove me away.

Yeah, I hate Edition Wars. You're shitting on fellow fans of something with slightly different tastes. It's the worst of geekdom on display.

If you like Requiem or Awakening, fine. It's like hating someone over liking the Ravnos or Tzimisce over the Ventrue.

I like OWOD more than Requiem because I don't much care for toolkit settings. That doesn't mean other people might not (and do).
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on May 27, 2020, 04:50:18 PM
Quote from: Doc Sammy;1131503
I'm glad you like it, that actually means a lot to me, especially from a WoD veteran such as yourself

Quote from: CTPhipps;1131504
Aw, thank you.

The focus on family and brutality of the mafia life means I think the Giovanni can be a good fit for a coterie of related vampires in the city.

Giovanni is just the Italian equivalent of John. It would make more sense to use Di Giovanni or Digiovanni as the surname.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: CTPhipps on May 27, 2020, 04:51:27 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1131507
Giovanni is just the Italian equivalent of John. It would make more sense to use Di Giovanni or Digiovanni as the surname.

There's an urban legend Mark Rein Hagen created them after visiting a Giovanni's Pizza, not realizing that it was a first name.

Technically, it's not inaccurate. There's some people with the last name John (or Giovanni) in Italy but it is a little weird.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on May 27, 2020, 04:51:34 PM
Quote from: CTPhipps;1131506
Yeah, I hate Edition Wars. You're shitting on fellow fans of something with slightly different tastes. It's the worst of geekdom on display.

If you like Requiem or Awakening, fine. It's like hating someone over liking the Ravnos or Tzimisce over the Ventrue.

I like OWOD more than Requiem because I don't much care for toolkit settings. That doesn't mean other people might not (and do).

I don't like any of them. I hate them all equally.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: CTPhipps on May 27, 2020, 04:53:28 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1131509
I don't like any of them. I hate them all equally.

Ah, among vampires, hatred is as good as love for relationships.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on May 27, 2020, 05:27:11 PM
Quote from: CTPhipps;1131510
Ah, among vampires, hatred is as good as love for relationships.

It's terrible and isn't healthy. That's the entire reason I decided to make my own campaign settings. To avoid all this awful toxicity. To mix and match the ideas I liked from every iterations of the darkness games.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: CTPhipps on May 27, 2020, 05:34:36 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1131513
It's terrible and isn't healthy. That's the entire reason I decided to make my own campaign settings. To avoid all this awful toxicity. To mix and match the ideas I liked from every iterations of the darkness games.

A friend of mine had the same idea and made our GOTHAM CITY BY NIGHT game.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on May 27, 2020, 07:13:31 PM
Quote from: CTPhipps;1131516
A friend of mine had the same idea and made our GOTHAM CITY BY NIGHT game.

I was thinking more time-traveling cyborg templar homunculi like what Orphan says he liked about Mage. And laser squid katana spaceships.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: Orphan81 on May 27, 2020, 08:22:28 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1131525
I was thinking more time-traveling cyborg templar homunculi like what Orphan says he liked about Mage. And laser squid katana spaceships.

Yes, exactly. It's the strength of the Ascension setting over the Awakening setting.

Templar
Paradigm: Instrument of God's will on earth, I am not a Mage, but a worker of Miracles granted to me by God.
Foci: Templar Sword, Crucifex Necklace, Prayers and Hymns, Holy Water.
Spheres: Life, Prime, Matter...
Typical Effects:The Templar can lay on hands to heal, use transubstantiation to change the state of matter, smite foul creatures, use holy sight to seen magic, and pray for strength against adversries.

Cyborg
Paradigm: I am the future of humanity, when man and machine become one.
Foci: Cybernetic eye, arm, leg, and some internal organs, really big gun
Spheres: Correspondence, Forces, Matter
Typical Effects: The Cyborg can use her internal computer to hack any electronic device, see through them and spy on anyone. Forces can be used to take control of those devices, and can also be used to make her big gun really good at blowing shit up, deliver electric shocks from her cybernetic limbs, magnetic force to wipe hard-drives, generate forcefields to protect others. Matter of course lets her integrate with machines directly using her cybernetic parts to better control and use them, make her equipment even better or detect flaws with it using her cybernetic eye.

Time Traveling Dark Ages Hermetic
Paradigm: The secret wisdom of the world found in Invoking Arch Angels and Demons, calling up the sacred wisdom of Hermes-Trimergertus.
Foci: Secret names of Greater beings, symbols of power, numerology, The internet
Spheres: Forces, Time, Prime
Typical effects: Calling upon the elements to smite foes, Commanding Angels and Demons to undo Magick of others, detect sources of Magick and empower or depower them. Being slightly out of state with time thanks to being in the wrong timeline is used to speed themselves up, step slightly out of phase with time, or rewind and look forward in areas to gather information.

Those are just some very quick examples I whipped up in 10 minutes. Obviously, you probably wouldn't want all of them in the same group. It's perfectly awesome to also play a college student with a background in Voodoo whose awakened and now calls upon the Loa to perform their Magick, or a Mortician whose discovered the secret wisdom in death and studies different forms of Necromancy around the world to incorporate into a modern synthesis of their styles.

The point is, Ascension also let you go into High Fantasy and Magick if you wanted... with Void Ships plying deep space, and Horizon realms created by Arch-Mages to carry out their own grand experiments. You could keep things street level and gritty, or you could go High Modern Fantasy with it.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: CTPhipps on May 27, 2020, 08:50:58 PM
I didn't feel Awakening very much but I loved the Seers of the Throne.

I feel much better antagonists than the Technocracy.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on May 28, 2020, 12:05:32 PM
Quote from: Orphan81;1131532
Yes, exactly. It's the strength of the Ascension setting over the Awakening setting.

Templar
Paradigm: Instrument of God's will on earth, I am not a Mage, but a worker of Miracles granted to me by God.
Foci: Templar Sword, Crucifex Necklace, Prayers and Hymns, Holy Water.
Spheres: Life, Prime, Matter...
Typical Effects:The Templar can lay on hands to heal, use transubstantiation to change the state of matter, smite foul creatures, use holy sight to seen magic, and pray for strength against adversries.

Cyborg
Paradigm: I am the future of humanity, when man and machine become one.
Foci: Cybernetic eye, arm, leg, and some internal organs, really big gun
Spheres: Correspondence, Forces, Matter
Typical Effects: The Cyborg can use her internal computer to hack any electronic device, see through them and spy on anyone. Forces can be used to take control of those devices, and can also be used to make her big gun really good at blowing shit up, deliver electric shocks from her cybernetic limbs, magnetic force to wipe hard-drives, generate forcefields to protect others. Matter of course lets her integrate with machines directly using her cybernetic parts to better control and use them, make her equipment even better or detect flaws with it using her cybernetic eye.

Time Traveling Dark Ages Hermetic
Paradigm: The secret wisdom of the world found in Invoking Arch Angels and Demons, calling up the sacred wisdom of Hermes-Trimergertus.
Foci: Secret names of Greater beings, symbols of power, numerology, The internet
Spheres: Forces, Time, Prime
Typical effects: Calling upon the elements to smite foes, Commanding Angels and Demons to undo Magick of others, detect sources of Magick and empower or depower them. Being slightly out of state with time thanks to being in the wrong timeline is used to speed themselves up, step slightly out of phase with time, or rewind and look forward in areas to gather information.

Those are just some very quick examples I whipped up in 10 minutes. Obviously, you probably wouldn't want all of them in the same group. It's perfectly awesome to also play a college student with a background in Voodoo whose awakened and now calls upon the Loa to perform their Magick, or a Mortician whose discovered the secret wisdom in death and studies different forms of Necromancy around the world to incorporate into a modern synthesis of their styles.

The point is, Ascension also let you go into High Fantasy and Magick if you wanted... with Void Ships plying deep space, and Horizon realms created by Arch-Mages to carry out their own grand experiments. You could keep things street level and gritty, or you could go High Modern Fantasy with it.


I never got the impression from reading Ascension that the character options you describe were available. Are you sure you aren't just homebrewing the whole lot?

You can do the exact same thing with Awakening, Opening the Dark, Risus, GURPS, Rifts, Shadowrun, the Everlasting, or any other system. The "tru majik" is pretentious glorified window dressing.

You don’t need the setting to spoon-feed you what your options are.

And yes, I want them all in the same group.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on May 28, 2020, 12:19:59 PM
Quote from: Orphan81;1131532
Yes, exactly. It's the strength of the Ascension setting over the Awakening setting.

Templar
Paradigm: Instrument of God's will on earth, I am not a Mage, but a worker of Miracles granted to me by God.
Foci: Templar Sword, Crucifex Necklace, Prayers and Hymns, Holy Water.
Spheres: Life, Prime, Matter...
Typical Effects:The Templar can lay on hands to heal, use transubstantiation to change the state of matter, smite foul creatures, use holy sight to seen magic, and pray for strength against adversries.

Cyborg
Paradigm: I am the future of humanity, when man and machine become one.
Foci: Cybernetic eye, arm, leg, and some internal organs, really big gun
Spheres: Correspondence, Forces, Matter
Typical Effects: The Cyborg can use her internal computer to hack any electronic device, see through them and spy on anyone. Forces can be used to take control of those devices, and can also be used to make her big gun really good at blowing shit up, deliver electric shocks from her cybernetic limbs, magnetic force to wipe hard-drives, generate forcefields to protect others. Matter of course lets her integrate with machines directly using her cybernetic parts to better control and use them, make her equipment even better or detect flaws with it using her cybernetic eye.

Time Traveling Dark Ages Hermetic
Paradigm: The secret wisdom of the world found in Invoking Arch Angels and Demons, calling up the sacred wisdom of Hermes-Trimergertus.
Foci: Secret names of Greater beings, symbols of power, numerology, The internet
Spheres: Forces, Time, Prime
Typical effects: Calling upon the elements to smite foes, Commanding Angels and Demons to undo Magick of others, detect sources of Magick and empower or depower them. Being slightly out of state with time thanks to being in the wrong timeline is used to speed themselves up, step slightly out of phase with time, or rewind and look forward in areas to gather information.

Those are just some very quick examples I whipped up in 10 minutes. Obviously, you probably wouldn't want all of them in the same group. It's perfectly awesome to also play a college student with a background in Voodoo whose awakened and now calls upon the Loa to perform their Magick, or a Mortician whose discovered the secret wisdom in death and studies different forms of Necromancy around the world to incorporate into a modern synthesis of their styles.

The point is, Ascension also let you go into High Fantasy and Magick if you wanted... with Void Ships plying deep space, and Horizon realms created by Arch-Mages to carry out their own grand experiments. You could keep things street level and gritty, or you could go High Modern Fantasy with it.

I don't need the setting to spoon-feed me what my options are. If I want to do all that stuff in Awakening, then I will and I won't give a damn what anybody else thinks. (Not that I'll ever actually play either way, but it's the thought that counts.)

Ascension isn't unique in any of that. It's not like Rifts, Shadowrun, and Monte Cook's The Strange don't already do the same thing. I'm pretty sure Rifts and Shadowrun outright influenced Mage, since they predate it.

EDIT: I'm referring to genre-bending shenanigans here, not the rules tru majik.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: Chris24601 on May 28, 2020, 01:37:31 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1131585
Ascension isn't unique in any of that. It's not like Rifts, Shadowrun, and Monte Cook's The Strange don't already do the same thing. I'm pretty sure Rifts and Shadowrun outright influenced Mage, since they predate it.

Look, I love me some Rifts, but No, Rifts doesn't do magic even a little like Ascension does and this is really just showing off your hate-blinders and ignorance of the Ascension setting (and of Rifts for that matter).

Rifts has exactly ONE paradigm for magic. You channel a specific type of energies through the use of specific words and gestures. Getting better at magic is a process of exposing yourself to those energies to increase your body's capacity to hold it (increasing the size of your PPE pool) and studying specific spells that channel that energy (your spell list).

The gods in the setting are extra-dimensional aliens that are better at channeling that energy than humans are and can charge up certain followers with that energy without the follower needing to study and practice.

There are cyborgs and superscience too in Rifts, but it's not magic and the setting makes a point of their mutual incompatibility and those things are only possible because the setting is a post-apocalyptic setting following an era of super-science.

This is 180 degrees the opposite of Ascension where both Hermetic words of power, the Templar's faith and superscience cybernetics are all just different expressions of the ways by which mages (not wizards... wise men is a much more apt term for them overall) push to change the present day world into something more than it is now.

Now, you COULD use Ascension's mechanics to run a game set in Rifts (i.e. PPE magic, ISP psionics and Super Science are coincidental) but that's not the same as saying that Ascension and Rifts do the same thing... just that Ascension allows so many concepts to work with each other in the same setting without breaking it's conceptual foundations.

Box, it's becoming increasingly obvious that your attacks on settings like Ascension, Masquerade and Wraith are based on, at best, second-hand information if not outright fabrications. You're adding nothing to the conversation but misinformation and spite.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on May 28, 2020, 02:31:10 PM
Quote from: Chris24601;1131588
Look, I love me some Rifts, but No, Rifts doesn't do magic even a little like Ascension does and this is really just showing off your hate-blinders and ignorance of the Ascension setting (and of Rifts for that matter).

I meant in the sense of crazy high fantasy shenanigans, not the metaphysical underpinnings. My mistake for not being clearer.

Quote from: Chris24601;1131588
Box, it's becoming increasingly obvious that your attacks on settings like Ascension, Masquerade and Wraith are based on, at best, second-hand information if not outright fabrications. You're adding nothing to the conversation but misinformation and spite.

I've read the books first hand. I can list various obscure trivia that I still remember, like mages eventually outgrowing paradigm (which also invalidates the fanboyism), the outcasts book mentioning obscure bloodlines never detailed since, the 3e vampire storyteller handbook mentioning cainite vampires as the default in China and Japan, etc.

I've tried to keep limited to attacking positions and fanboyisms, particularly the edition wars and fandom attitudes that drove me away in the first place.

EDIT: If I failed to make that clear, then my mistake.


[/HR]
EDIT: I do owe a great debt to Chronicles/World of Darkness for introducing me to dark urban fantasy RPGs. Nonetheless, I have creative disagreements with them on nearly every level of design. I have had a lot of unpleasant experiences with the fandom during a long period of flame wars that have rendered me negatively disposed towards the fandom in general and against their recurring talking points revolving around the edition wars.

If you feel attacked or misrepresented, then I apologize.

Long live laser katana squid starships!
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: Chris24601 on May 28, 2020, 05:25:27 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1131595
I meant in the sense of crazy high fantasy shenanigans, not the metaphysical underpinnings. My mistake for not being clearer.
Except Mage isn't primarily high-fantasy shenanigans either.

You can have everything from the Virtual Adept DJ using acoustic science to fill his nightly audience with particular emotions to a modern day Paladin clearing gangs from the neighborhood around a church he's seeking to restore, to plumbing the depths of the underworld to find a secret known only to a dead man, to fighting a mad Etherite in the Hollow Earth happen in the same game session.

The entire point of Mage is that, unlike those others you mentioned, it can be exactly what you want it to be in that moment and, if the mood changes, it can change with it.

It can be horror (from personal to cosmic), comedy (from black to slapstick), action or drama using the same mechanics, setting and characters. It can fit the entirety of Awakening into a single Tradition that is less broad than the Order of Hermes.

Quote
I've read the books first hand. I can list various obscure trivia that I still remember, like mages eventually outgrowing paradigm (which also invalidates the fanboyism), the outcasts book mentioning obscure bloodlines never detailed since, the 3e vampire storyteller handbook mentioning cainite vampires as the default in China and Japan, etc.
Actually, they don't outgrow their paradigm... they outgrow the need for specific tools to express that paradigm. Hermetics will always believe "As above, So below" as the root of their practice... but they will eventually understand that they don't need to perform extrernal rituals with props like circles, incantations and alchemical reactants in order to enact it. Their will alone writes their desires into the celestial realms and brings it to be on Earth.

Similarly, the pious mage does not lose their faith... they learn that their prayers don't have to spoken aloud or with incense and holy symbols to heard by whatever power they believe in.

This is also why technocrats (as in all those that believe their power comes through the use of technology vs. just the Technocratic Union) can't discard the trappings (and to the extent they do its more along the lines of going MacGyver or A-Team on a problem instead of needing specific tools to achieve an effect).

So while you may have skimmed the Mage books at some point, your observation is a common one among people who complained about the system without actually digging into it. Sorta like making judgments on say, the X-Men having only seen the films, but never even cracking a graphic novel.

Likewise, the Outcasts book only covers Caitiffs and only mentions bloodlines in fluff text with the statement that each Caitiff could be considered its own unique bloodline and gives some examples; then includes mechanics for Caitiff to be able to take the "New Bloodline" merit and create their own disciplines (the main requirement of a bloodline is a unique discipline that is passed down its line). So the stuff you're saying wasn't covered was literally IN THE BOOK.

Plus, several of the examples cited in the fluff text did get write ups. The spirit using bloodline is called the Ahrimanes and both it and the Mariners (which use Protean to become sharks and seagulls instead of wolves and bats) were compiled into the bloodlines section of V20's core book. Similarly, the Gaki first turned up in A World of Darkness 1e (and were later retconned into a House of the Wan Kuei when KotE became a thing) and the African bloodlines were covered in Kindred of the Ebony Kingdom.

You're also wrong on the ST Handbook... the only mention of China in the entire volume is in the alternate time period settings and it mentions that dealing with the Cathayans (the Kindred term for the Wan Kuei/KotE) would be a major part of such a campaign. It also has an extensive section (as in even covers specific disciplines) in Chapter six on how to intergrate the differences in mechanics between Kindred of the East and Vampire Revised.

The most amusing part for me is the section where China is mentioned also includes details on how to run the game without Clans or Sects and using alternate creation myths like excommunicated from the Church, suicides/buried in unhallowed ground, demonic pacts or ancient magics and alternate takes like ALL victims killed by vampric feeding (or fed upon three nights in a row) rise as vampires (vs. being fed vampire blood).

All those things you said the game couldn't do are actually spelled out in a "this is how you do it" section.

So to sum it up; your memory is faulty or remembers only second-hand sources (the misunderstanding of Mage commonly cropped up on forums by people dissing Ascension) and the main things you complain about Masquerade not having are actually in the Storyteller Handbook.

That kinda undercuts your arguments.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on May 28, 2020, 06:35:39 PM
Quote from: Chris24601;1131609
It can be horror (from personal to cosmic), comedy (from black to slapstick), action or drama using the same mechanics, setting and characters. It can fit the entirety of Awakening into a single Tradition that is less broad than the Order of Hermes.
I don't believe that since I've read a bunch of Awakening books and know about things like the Appalachian Hoodoo, magical styles rules, transhuman engineers, three-eyed nazi hermaphrodites, blah blah blah, but I'm far too exhausted and apathetic to bother arguing with you.

Ascension rules, Awakening drools. Hooray!

Quote from: Chris24601;1131609
So while you may have skimmed the Mage books at some point, your observation is a common one among people who complained about the system without actually digging into it. Sorta like making judgments on say, the X-Men having only seen the films, but never even cracking a graphic novel.
I'm reading page 203 of Mage Revised right now. It says that mages can abandon their foci as Arete increases, but it doesn't explain what this means for their paradigm. Given the vague wording of the text, claiming that mages slowly outgrow or expand their paradigm seems like a valid interpretation. Like a lot of things across the editions, it's open to interpretation. At least until M20 included passages specifically to state which was the "correct" way, like saying that process-based determinism was the right way despite many examples of magic in prior editions clearly being result-based determinism.

Quote from: Chris24601;1131609
Likewise, the Outcasts book only covers Caitiffs and only mentions bloodlines in fluff text with the statement that each Caitiff could be considered its own unique bloodline and gives some examples; then includes mechanics for Caitiff to be able to take the "New Bloodline" merit and create their own disciplines (the main requirement of a bloodline is a unique discipline that is passed down its line). So the stuff you're saying wasn't covered was literally IN THE BOOK.
That's not what I meant at all. You have this tendency to completely misunderstand me. I apologize for being so vague.

I was referring to the Vhrujunka, Pasdoranitas, Zhulukall on Outcasts p22. They were never referenced again.

Quote from: Chris24601;1131609
You're also wrong on the ST Handbook... the only mention of China in the entire volume is in the alternate time period settings and it mentions that dealing with the Cathayans (the Kindred term for the Wan Kuei/KotE) would be a major part of such a campaign. It also has an extensive section (as in even covers specific disciplines) in Chapter six on how to intergrate the differences in mechanics between Kindred of the East and Vampire Revised.
My mistake. I was referring to chapter nine of A World of Darkness 2nd edition. This was released in 1996, a year before it was entirely retconned by KotE.

Quote from: Chris24601;1131609
All those things you said the game couldn't do are actually spelled out in a "this is how you do it" section.
I never said the game couldn't do them. Technically, it can do them but only if you homebrew it. They're only presented as one-off ideas without any deeper exploration and no integration into the canon lore. VTR did the same thing in Mythologies: presenting ideas, but never full campaign settings. By contrast, VTR2e has included whole new clan writeups with very different rules from other vampires like the jiangshi and dukhan... which unfortunately probably won't be integrated into the lore overall anyway because of the isolated toolkit design.

Quote from: Chris24601;1131609
So to sum it up; your memory is faulty or remembers only second-hand sources (the misunderstanding of Mage commonly cropped up on forums by people dissing Ascension) and the main things you complain about Masquerade not having are actually in the Storyteller Handbook.

That kinda undercuts your arguments.
It does if you strawman my arguments. I've provided page references and speculations to compensate for my previously unhelpful vague statements.

Look, I used to be a rabid fad of the games many years ago, but now I'm not. I've heard all of your arguments before during that awful period of my life. You're not going to convince me. I have fundamental creative disagreements with the games' design and no amount of slight house ruling is going to fix that.

EDIT: Actually, nevermind. This topic is causing me nothing but mental anguish. This is precisely what drove me away from this toxic fandom in the first place.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: Orphan81 on May 28, 2020, 08:56:39 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1131615

EDIT: Actually, nevermind. This topic is causing me nothing but mental anguish. This is precisely what drove me away from this toxic fandom in the first place.

Us: I like Chronicles, but I like Classic better for X,Y, and Z reasons..

BoxCrayon: Classic is stupid! How could you like it better!?

Us: *Proceed to provide examples of why we like it better*

BoxCrayon: No! I don't like those examples! You're all Toxic, I hate this fandom!

Dude, if anyone is Toxic, it's you right now. It's obvious this is causing you mental anguish, so yeah bowing out is probably the right idea.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: Chris24601 on May 28, 2020, 10:39:59 PM
Well, I'm sorry you're feeling mentally distressed, but it just seems like your arguments are picking at nits...

You're distressed that a piece of fluff text written in-character in a non-Vampire specific book and which included material on creating your own bloodlines was never given actual mechanics or follow up somehow BREAKS the game for you.

Frankly, Kindred of the Ebony Kingdom did a MUCH better job of presenting vampires in light of African culture (including multiple bloodlines reflecting that Africa isn't actually some homogeneous culture) than Outcast's single bloodline could have possibly done.

And I don't see what's so toxic about wanting clarity when someone presents something that's wrong. You admitted yourself that you'd cited the wrong book when citing that it had no mention of the Cathayan vampires... and of course it didn't; it was written in 1996, two years before Kindred of the East was written.

Plans change... particularly when producing creative works. VtM1e also started with the premise that the Eastern Kindred would be Cainites of unknown Antediluvian ancestry. Then someone pitched a more "interesting" idea (in quotes because specially magic asians hasn't aged well); probably because that tangentially tied into the other new title, Exalted, and they ran with that.

Likewise, you admit that discarding foci is NOT the same as discarding a paradigm; but tried inserting discarding paradigm as fact anyway (a false fact commonly used to disparage Ascension by those who cared more about hating it than getting their arguments straight) and are only distressed at being called on it.

Getting back to the topic at hand though, I have actually incorporated the basics of the Awakening factions into Ascension with the Exarchs as disembodied Archmages who built their own Umbral realm tied into their paradigm and with the Awakened factions sharing that paradigm. Hoodoo and the rest already had well established paradigms both in the Traditions and among the disparates, but the Atlantis/Towers myth was sufficiently unique to be its own paradigm, but because of that shared paradigm it really didn't have any more breadth to it than a typical independent Tradition... by contrast House Ex Miscellanea of the Order of Hermes includes paradigms of Chinese high ritual magic, technomancers, chaos magic, African tribal practices and druidic ritualists among others... and that's one House of one Tradition among the Council of Nine Magical Traditions; which wasn't even inclusive of all the mystical Traditions, much less when you included the Conventions of the Technocratic Union and the Orphans with their own unique paradigms.

I also took a cue from Awakening's Tremere (who were lich-like mages) and had the Vampire clan commit ritual suicide to avoid a prophecy of doom (I ran a variant of the Nephandi End Times scenario at one point that the PCs managed to overcome through some very clever uses of paradigm in a way that left all but a few unaware it had even happened; after which all my Mage campaigns have been Post-End Times with the wheel of ages now at the start of its upward cycle). This ritual transformed the entire clan into wraiths that rode out the end times in the underworld and then returned as possessing spirits and much better antagonists for mages since they were no longer limited to nighttime hours, fed on pathos/belief and couldn't be easily killed... at least not permanently.*

* This applies only to my ongoing Mage campaigns. The Tremere are their usual vampire selves in my Vampire games.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: Kuroth on May 28, 2020, 11:54:03 PM
I always thought Hunter: The Reckoning was sort of intended to be used like this, or at least that's how I imagined it.  Not going to claim I know much in depth knowledge about White Wolf games.  Liked the look of Hunter, though.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: Mordred Pendragon on May 29, 2020, 02:53:23 AM
Quote from: Orphan81;1131625
Us: I like Chronicles, but I like Classic better for X,Y, and Z reasons..

BoxCrayon: Classic is stupid! How could you like it better!?

Us: *Proceed to provide examples of why we like it better*

BoxCrayon: No! I don't like those examples! You're all Toxic, I hate this fandom!

Dude, if anyone is Toxic, it's you right now. It's obvious this is causing you mental anguish, so yeah bowing out is probably the right idea.

It's sad when the craziest person in a World of Darkness thread is NOT me for a change.

Like, I'm pretty out there on multiple topics in gaming and outside of gaming, while BoxCrayonTales is pretty normal in most threads right up until White Wolf enters the discussion.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on May 29, 2020, 09:17:26 AM
Talking with WoD or CoD fans alike stresses me out to the point where I get diarrhea.

You continually rag on CoD and constantly misrepresent my arguments in bad faith.

I apologize for any mistakes or misspeaking, but I would appreciate not being made a strawman.

I'm simply not invested in the edition wars. I don't compare Awakening or Ascension to see which is better. I have creative disagreements with both.

Talking to you literally gives me diarrhea on a daily basis.

So yes, I'm bowing out.

Years of flame wars have worn me down. I was also abused for several years, which doesn't help. I have a developmental disorder that interfered with my social skills. I've been struggling with undiagnosed depression for several years now.

Basically, my whole psyche is screwed up from the get go and I am negatively inclined toward WoD/CoD fans to begin with. I apologize if you have felt attacked and I mean no offense.

I just want an urban fantasy game that is loosely similar to WoD/CoD but isn't the same brand and doesn't give me diarrhea when I try to discuss it.
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: Mordred Pendragon on May 29, 2020, 09:46:09 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1131655
Talking with WoD or CoD fans alike stresses me out to the point where I get diarrhea.

You continually rag on CoD and constantly misrepresent my arguments in bad faith.

I apologize for any mistakes or misspeaking, but I would appreciate not being made a strawman.

I'm simply not invested in the edition wars. I don't compare Awakening or Ascension to see which is better. I have creative disagreements with both.

Talking to you literally gives me diarrhea on a daily basis.

So yes, I'm bowing out.

Years of flame wars have worn me down. I was also abused for several years, which doesn't help. I have a developmental disorder that interfered with my social skills. I've been struggling with undiagnosed depression for several years now.

Basically, my whole psyche is screwed up from the get go and I am negatively inclined toward WoD/CoD fans to begin with. I apologize if you have felt attacked and I mean no offense.

I just want an urban fantasy game that is loosely similar to WoD/CoD but isn't the same brand and doesn't give me diarrhea when I try to discuss it.

I didn't rag on CoD....

And if you want an urban fantasy game similar to CoD, then try out a campaign a friend and I are working on together...
Title: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match
Post by: CTPhipps on May 29, 2020, 09:50:53 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1131655
Talking with WoD or CoD fans alike stresses me out to the point where I get diarrhea.


We love you too, BoxCrayonTales.