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Author Topic: White Wolf - WoD and CoD Mix and Match  (Read 3087 times)

PencilBoy99

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« Reply #30 on: May 27, 2020, 01:54:12 PM »
Whenever I run VTM Larps I always include CoD stuff and people are very excited about it (unless I'm contradicting VTM lore, in which case they flip out).

CTPhipps

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« Reply #31 on: May 27, 2020, 02:09:52 PM »
Quote from: ShieldWife;1131477
Well, that makes sense. Sometimes I feel like supplements that cover particular places and/or periods in time have a difficult balancing act. What information do they include about the real world, because there are mountains of books written about various places and times and an RPG book isn't going to do it justice. They RPG should give us ways of tying that time and place to the focus of the game, vampires in this case, which must entail giving some very limited information about what is happening there and then. This could be hard too when they are detailing some other nation and culture because there will necessarily be a tendency to stereotype it.



Yeah, I've read that and enjoyed it. I do have a point of contention about point 4, because I don't think that most Anarchs expect to have total freedom. The reasonable Anarchs, which should be the majority, should expect that any system that they operate under will have some kind of rules and restrictions. Sometimes I think that there was too little information on what the Anarchs actually did want. I could imagine that many Anarchs would just want the Camarilla (or a system that replaces them) to incorporate some Enlightenment era ideas - some kind of democratic voice for younger vampires, a legal system which protects the accused with due process and a presumption of innocence, right not toe be killed on a whim by the Prince, Sherif, or Archon. That sort of thing.

I could see a discussion along those lines as an interesting role playing scenario, maybe even for a LARP. A bunch of Anarchs are together and are discussing their vision or a better vampiric society, with opinions running the gamut from minor Camarilla reforms (Prince can't kill you without a trial) to another oppressive system with the Anarchs as the new leaders to the complete abolishment of any vampiric law (so actual Anarchy) to maybe even more radical ideas like humanity and vampires living openly together.

You're definitely right on that. I suppose I was leaning heavily on the idea of "make sure people don't confuse Anarchs for noble hearted Robin Hoods."

BoxCrayonTales

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« Reply #32 on: May 27, 2020, 02:25:51 PM »
Quote from: ShieldWife;1131477
Yeah, I've read that and enjoyed it. I do have a point of contention about point 4, because I don't think that most Anarchs expect to have total freedom. The reasonable Anarchs, which should be the majority, should expect that any system that they operate under will have some kind of rules and restrictions. Sometimes I think that there was too little information on what the Anarchs actually did want. I could imagine that many Anarchs would just want the Camarilla (or a system that replaces them) to incorporate some Enlightenment era ideas - some kind of democratic voice for younger vampires, a legal system which protects the accused with due process and a presumption of innocence, right not toe be killed on a whim by the Prince, Sherif, or Archon. That sort of thing.

I could see a discussion along those lines as an interesting role playing scenario, maybe even for a LARP. A bunch of Anarchs are together and are discussing their vision or a better vampiric society, with opinions running the gamut from minor Camarilla reforms (Prince can't kill you without a trial) to another oppressive system with the Anarchs as the new leaders to the complete abolishment of any vampiric law (so actual Anarchy) to maybe even more radical ideas like humanity and vampires living openly together.
VTR beat you to the punch, I guess.

The way the vampire hierarchy works is deeply affected by a new rule for vampirism introduced in VTR (at least in 1e, I think it was removed in 2e): increasing blood-potency forces vampires to seek increasingly refined sources of blood, ultimately resulting in them being unable to feed except on vampire blood. So eventually (in combination with a vaguely-defined "call to torpor" IIRC) elder vampires will enter hibernation to reduce BP over years of sleep, handing their affairs over to loyal vassals. This allows you to create a new PC who is actually an ancient vampire whose stats were reduced by a long sleep or conversely the child of an elder vampire who created you to take over their affairs while they slumber. (Also, elder vampires don't automatically have perfect recollections of their existence, but I think that was removed in 2e too.)

In other words, it's a variation of the leap-frog government used by the vampires in Underworld. I wouldn't be surprised if Justin Achilli copied the idea. But, again, I think it was removed in 2e because it wasn't similar enough to VTM or something (don't quote me on that, though, since I stopped following CoD after the 2e came out due to exhaustion with the edition wars). But I digress.

Not only that, but the various "covenants" (sects) are designed in a toolkit manner. Since cities are politically distinct a la V5 and always have been (because the vampires never developed a unified global government, although at least one book introduced various conspiracies fighting for control), the covenants in a given city may be very distinct from their ideological cousins in another nearby city.

As much as people like to rag on both V5 and VTR, VTR has had a lot more time to refine the V5 formula. Listen to the fanboys sometime for an opposing perspective.

EDIT: I refreshed my memory by reading the unofficial white wolf wiki, and they basically said that the vampire's soul wanders the afterlife during torpor and can experience changes to memory and personality due to seeing the past and future and stuff. It's apparently totally optional, but it's useful for mystery-focused games I guess.

Quote from: PencilBoy99;1131478
Whenever I run VTM Larps I always include CoD stuff and people are very excited about it (unless I'm contradicting VTM lore, in which case they flip out).
Sounds as horrible as usual for this fandom. Have any juicy horror stories to share? Or non-horror stories?
« Last Edit: May 27, 2020, 02:31:17 PM by BoxCrayonTales »

Orphan81

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« Reply #33 on: May 27, 2020, 03:26:55 PM »
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1131476
None of which appeals to me. I grew up with the internet, so all this talk of updates sounds to me like "how do you do fellow kids?" ad nauseam. I guess I was just born a generation too late to appreciate WoD.

Firstly, this is a false dichotomy since the translation guide is a thing and you can just import the elements you like. That's the point of this thread.

Secondly, you're clearly heavily biased in favor of VTM based on emotions. I see nothing about the Cain-with-an-e myth that makes it any more special than anything else. Aglondir's proposed OSR game about archaeology sounds way more mysterious and interesting to me.

Again, that's sound like the nostalgia goggles talking.


False Dichotomy nothing. The Translation guide goes both ways. So arguing "Oh I can take anything from Classic and bring it to Chronicles" is a strawman argument, because I can do the same damn thing the other way. Also, get this through your head, because you can't seem to pay attention. I LIKE Chronicles of Darkness.

Now on to your other point about how "Updated" sounds like "Hello fellow kids". I'd blame your lack of comprehension on your age then, but Doc Sammy seems to have very little trouble understanding what I've written. I'll preface this by saying I own every core book and supplement of both Chronicles and World of Darkness. I like both, I buy and read both.

Now 20th anniversary updated the original World of Darkness games as new editions do. They changed things, they added things, and they took out other things. I used to think Awakening was better than Mage based off of what I could do with Mage as of Revised edition..

Then M20 came out, and it's support. M20 cleaned up what you could do in Mage, it expanded on things, it added more, and it removed elements that sucked. It presented a greater tool box and the best version of the Ascension setting yet. That version of Ascension, eclipsed Awakening 2nd edition for me. Whereas previously, Awakening offered better tools and setting material... The expanded material on Ascension just said "Our setting is cooler."

Awakening is playing Harry Potter. Boiling it down to it's core, it is a game about WIZARDS. And that is cool, if you want to play a tight focused game that's much more like Harry Dresden and Harry Potter Awakening is that.

But I can do that in Ascension as well. I can have the Order of Hermes, and Death Eaters in the form of the Nephandus. But more than that, I can bring in so much more. I can be the descendant of a God, I can be a Cyborg, I can be a lost time traveler. I can be an alchemical clone, I can be a Templar whose empowered by God.I can be a magic user from an alternate universe. It's not just wizards, it's WILL WORKERS, and the most important part of the setting, is my belief on how my powers work, and where they come from.. and that leads to such awesome characters.

I've ran campaigns of both Awakening and Requiem. It's not "Nostalgia" goggles, it's what I actually did with both settings and which gave me more enjoyment and more possibilities. My Awakening campaign ended with an epic fight in Post-Katrina flooded New Orleans as the Cabal fought against the Prince of 1,000 leaves and it's desire to bring the Abyssal version of New Orleans over to replace the original. It was a blast, my players loved it. Just as they loved my Requiem campaign that revolved around finding the hidden heart of Dracula.

But, unless I have a very specific idea, The World of Darkness gives me more things to work with out of the Box, than Chronicles does.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1131476

The bleeding edge or whatever CoD ebook provided rules for stargates and space opera tropes. The translation guide handled other stuff. I can do everything in Ascension with Awakening but more and better. At least in the literal sense, because I can have the Seers, Atlanteans, Technocracies, Kyriarchies, and whatever fighting with fleets of millions of starships across thousands of light years of space and shit. To say nothing of the multiverse shenanigans in the Continuum fanbook.


This means absolutely nothing to me. I don't want Vampires and Werewolves in my spaceships.. and if I want Fantasy Cyberpunk I have Shadowrun which does it better than anyone else.


Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1131476

I'm not comparing Wraith with Geist. I'm criticizing Wraith based on its own merits and on interactions with the fandom. In my experience, fans liked the underground railroad more than the ghost part. Which alienated me, because I wanted to play ghost stories.

I don't like the renegades, heretics, or the hierarchy. I was disappointed when Geist wasn't about playable ghosts.

So you admit you've never even read Wraith, and you talked to what 2 or 3 people about it? Because I'm pretty active in the Wraith fan community, and "Underground Railroad" doesn't come up. You're trying to cover your tracks because you admit you don't really know much about the setting and are just talking out your ass.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1131476

As much as you might be obsessed with WoD as being the best game since sliced bread, I don't see the appeal.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Okay I have to change my vote now on who has the most unhealthy relationship with Whitewolf... It's you, way you.
1. Some of you culture warriors are so committed to the bit you'll throw out any nuance or common sense in fear it's 'giving in' to the other side.

2. I'm a married homeowner with a career and a child. I won life. You can't insult me.

3. I work in a Prison, your tough guy act is boring.

Orphan81

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« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2020, 03:33:01 PM »
Quote from: CTPhipps;1131469


And I agree with you that I don't think the games have to be 100% inherently politcal. A Red State Republican and a Blue State Democrat and a anarchist nutjob are all going to want to oppose the Camarilla in the Anarchs because no one born in the 20th century is going to want to bend down their knee to a feudal system that predates their great-great-grandfathers. Indeed, I always liked that element of the Anarchs. They're a bunch of people united by their hatred of the Camarilla, not because of their beliefs of what comes next. I appreciate that and while I like games having political content, I think a layer of separation is good.


The problem here though is... Lots of people LIKE the Camarilla. I'm one of them. I love every faction in Vampire, and I've run successful campaigns for each of them. The Camarilla are not something you should inherently oppose just out of principal. First, they're the biggest enforcers of the Masquerade out of all the factions. Which in turns means, they're also the most protective of the kine out of all the factions. They also promote following the path of Humanity more than any other faction. All of these are for completely selfish reasons. Keep the kine ignorant, don't make waves, we have to eat.. so don't go around being a monster. They're the defacto greatest bulwark against the Sabbat.

Players like the Camarilla because scheming undead politics is fun, and they want to be part of it. The Camarilla also has Archons and Justicars, who hand out missions to travel around and fight things that are a threat to the Masquerade and the Camarilla as a whole. The Camarilla are not "The bad guys" because Vampire doesn't have "Bad guys" outside of individual Vampires... and the Sabbat is only the "Bad guys" from the perspective of Humans.
1. Some of you culture warriors are so committed to the bit you'll throw out any nuance or common sense in fear it's 'giving in' to the other side.

2. I'm a married homeowner with a career and a child. I won life. You can't insult me.

3. I work in a Prison, your tough guy act is boring.

CTPhipps

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« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2020, 03:49:13 PM »
Quote from: Orphan81;1131490
The problem here though is... Lots of people LIKE the Camarilla. I'm one of them. I love every faction in Vampire, and I've run successful campaigns for each of them. The Camarilla are not something you should inherently oppose just out of principal. First, they're the biggest enforcers of the Masquerade out of all the factions. Which in turns means, they're also the most protective of the kine out of all the factions. They also promote following the path of Humanity more than any other faction. All of these are for completely selfish reasons. Keep the kine ignorant, don't make waves, we have to eat.. so don't go around being a monster. They're the defacto greatest bulwark against the Sabbat.

Players like the Camarilla because scheming undead politics is fun, and they want to be part of it. The Camarilla also has Archons and Justicars, who hand out missions to travel around and fight things that are a threat to the Masquerade and the Camarilla as a whole. The Camarilla are not "The bad guys" because Vampire doesn't have "Bad guys" outside of individual Vampires... and the Sabbat is only the "Bad guys" from the perspective of Humans.

"Hey, anyone who wants to reign in Hell must serve there first."
-One of my Anarch PCs on the Camarilla's followers

Mordred Pendragon

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« Reply #36 on: May 27, 2020, 04:33:12 PM »
Quote from: CTPhipps;1131493
"Hey, anyone who wants to reign in Hell must serve there first."
-One of my Anarch PCs on the Camarilla's followers

CT Phipps, mind if I ask what you think of my idea for a reimagined Giovanni for Requiem 1e?
Sic Semper Tyrannis

CTPhipps

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« Reply #37 on: May 27, 2020, 04:35:06 PM »
Quote from: Doc Sammy;1131501
CT Phipps, mind if I ask what you think of my idea for a reimagined Giovanni for Requiem 1e?

I think you did an extremely good job there. The Giovanni as a offshoot of the Ventrue, who are a bunch of kooky insane old aristocrats anyway in Requiem, makes a lot more sense than the Sangiovanni. If you're going to do a mafia-based game, you might as well keep a laser focus and making Augustus a Don figure you can actually oppose isn't a bad idea.

:two thumbs up:

Mordred Pendragon

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« Reply #38 on: May 27, 2020, 04:36:48 PM »
Quote from: CTPhipps;1131502
I think you did an extremely good job there. The Giovanni as a offshoot of the Ventrue, who are a bunch of kooky insane old aristocrats anyway in Requiem, makes a lot more sense than the Sangiovanni.

I'm glad you like it, that actually means a lot to me, especially from a WoD veteran such as yourself
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CTPhipps

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« Reply #39 on: May 27, 2020, 04:39:50 PM »
Quote from: Doc Sammy;1131503
I'm glad you like it, that actually means a lot to me, especially from a WoD veteran such as yourself

Aw, thank you.

The focus on family and brutality of the mafia life means I think the Giovanni can be a good fit for a coterie of related vampires in the city.

BoxCrayonTales

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« Reply #40 on: May 27, 2020, 04:47:05 PM »
Quote from: Orphan81;1131489
I LIKE Chronicles of Darkness.
I don't. Those damned edition wars, which you are still waging right now, drove me away.

People kept telling me that I sucked for liking CoD. White Wolf themselves got into it. I said "screw you guys" and left the fandom out of sheer disgust.

Quote from: Orphan81;1131489
Awakening is playing Harry Potter. Boiling it down to it's core, it is a game about WIZARDS. And that is cool, if you want to play a tight focused game that's much more like Harry Dresden and Harry Potter Awakening is that.

But I can do that in Ascension as well. I can have the Order of Hermes, and Death Eaters in the form of the Nephandus. But more than that, I can bring in so much more. I can be the descendant of a God, I can be a Cyborg, I can be a lost time traveler. I can be an alchemical clone, I can be a Templar whose empowered by God.I can be a magic user from an alternate universe. It's not just wizards, it's WILL WORKERS, and the most important part of the setting, is my belief on how my powers work, and where they come from.. and that leads to such awesome characters.
That is a false dichotomy. There's zero reason why you can't do all of that in Awakening besides a stupid excuse like "But Atlantis!"

In fact, you can play all that with Risus.

The distinctions between the games are window dressing. They only matter if you're super-invested in them. I have long since lost any investment I once had after years of flame wars wearing me down.

Quote from: Orphan81;1131489
So you admit you've never even read Wraith, and you talked to what 2 or 3 people about it? Because I'm pretty active in the Wraith fan community, and "Underground Railroad" doesn't come up. You're trying to cover your tracks because you admit you don't really know much about the setting and are just talking out your ass.
I read a bunch of books and talked to a bunch of people, but it's been over a decade so excuse me for being rusty.

The problem with Wraith was that it was trying to be two very different things. On one hand you had traditional ghost stories and variations thereof. On the other you had the WW-isms like the underworld politics, underground railroad, and absurdly oppressive bleakness even for a game about playing ghosts. I couldn't really get into it until I read an unofficial CoD remake (among others, there were several in the mid-late 2000s that I vaguely remember), which focused extensively on the ghost stories part and redesigned the factions to be implicated in that.

When I tried to find anybody interested in playing something that focused on the ghost stories bit, the responses I got were that if it doesn't have the metaplot, oblivion, hierarchy, yadda yadda then it wasn't worth playing. That was really disheartening for me. Even on this very forum, I had at least one Wraith fan tell me that they only played for the underground railroad.

In fact, I can't remember a single positive gaming experience with either World of Darkness or Chronicles of Darkness.

CTPhipps

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« Reply #41 on: May 27, 2020, 04:50:15 PM »
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1131505
I don't. Those damned edition wars, which you are still waging right now, drove me away.

Yeah, I hate Edition Wars. You're shitting on fellow fans of something with slightly different tastes. It's the worst of geekdom on display.

If you like Requiem or Awakening, fine. It's like hating someone over liking the Ravnos or Tzimisce over the Ventrue.

I like OWOD more than Requiem because I don't much care for toolkit settings. That doesn't mean other people might not (and do).

BoxCrayonTales

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« Reply #42 on: May 27, 2020, 04:50:18 PM »
Quote from: Doc Sammy;1131503
I'm glad you like it, that actually means a lot to me, especially from a WoD veteran such as yourself

Quote from: CTPhipps;1131504
Aw, thank you.

The focus on family and brutality of the mafia life means I think the Giovanni can be a good fit for a coterie of related vampires in the city.

Giovanni is just the Italian equivalent of John. It would make more sense to use Di Giovanni or Digiovanni as the surname.

CTPhipps

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« Reply #43 on: May 27, 2020, 04:51:27 PM »
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1131507
Giovanni is just the Italian equivalent of John. It would make more sense to use Di Giovanni or Digiovanni as the surname.

There's an urban legend Mark Rein Hagen created them after visiting a Giovanni's Pizza, not realizing that it was a first name.

Technically, it's not inaccurate. There's some people with the last name John (or Giovanni) in Italy but it is a little weird.

BoxCrayonTales

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« Reply #44 on: May 27, 2020, 04:51:34 PM »
Quote from: CTPhipps;1131506
Yeah, I hate Edition Wars. You're shitting on fellow fans of something with slightly different tastes. It's the worst of geekdom on display.

If you like Requiem or Awakening, fine. It's like hating someone over liking the Ravnos or Tzimisce over the Ventrue.

I like OWOD more than Requiem because I don't much care for toolkit settings. That doesn't mean other people might not (and do).

I don't like any of them. I hate them all equally.