Quote from: CTPhipps;1131442A bunch of strawmanning about the Camarilla and Heiarchy I'm going to ignore to focus on this quote about the Technocracy.

I flat out don't get any Technocracy defenders as they're a conspiracy theory given life.

The Technocracy have gone through retcons in every edition of Mage to 20th anniversary presenting them as a fully playable faction on par with the Traditions if STs want.

This is because even in first edition there was a kernal of something to respect with the Technocracy that's grown from making them one dimensional boring baddies to an interesting and compelling other faction.

Did you like the First two Men in Black movies? Have you ever played X-com? How about James Bond or Anything by Tom Clancy? How about the Show Eureka or the Iron man movies?

Because that's the Technocracy.

Ironman is a guy who uses technology to keep up with Gods and never forgets he's a normal human under it all. He supports government oversight thinking it makes people safer.

Eureka pushes the boundaries of what's possible to make the world a better place with science and technology that will be safe and usable by everyone.. Once they get all the kinks worked out.

The MiB protect the very world from Alien threats on a daily basis letting the rest of the world sleep safe and sound without ever knowing.

Hell just take a look at the new Ducktales series.. It's literally about a Technocrat amalgam that's a family and goes on adventures together.

That is what fans of the Technocracy wanted, because it's cooler and leads to more stories than the bland soulless entity out to crush joy..

And that version of the Technocracy is also there too as much or as little as you want of it.

Personally I like M20s tilt towards Nephandus as being the real villains of the setting and the expansion they received in book of the Fallen 20.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1131447Vampires eat people. Feudalism sounds like a perfect fit for them.

Exactly.

I mean, yes, it's the game about playing bad guys but remember you're playing bad guys.

Quote from: Orphan81;1131455The Technocracy have gone through retcons in every edition of Mage to 20th anniversary presenting them as a fully playable faction on par with the Traditions if STs want.

This is because even in first edition there was a kernal of something to respect with the Technocracy that's grown from making them one dimensional boring baddies to an interesting and compelling other faction.

Did you like the First two Men in Black movies? Have you ever played X-com? How about James Bond or Anything by Tom Clancy? How about the Show Eureka or the Iron man movies?

Because that's the Technocracy.

Ironman is a guy who uses technology to keep up with Gods and never forgets he's a normal human under it all. He supports government oversight thinking it makes people safer.

Eureka pushes the boundaries of what's possible to make the world a better place with science and technology that will be safe and usable by everyone.. Once they get all the kinks worked out.

The MiB protect the very world from Alien threats on a daily basis letting the rest of the world sleep safe and sound without ever knowing.

Hell just take a look at the new Ducktales series.. It's literally about a Technocrat amalgam that's a family and goes on adventures together.

That is what fans of the Technocracy wanted, because it's cooler and leads to more stories than the bland soulless entity out to crush joy..

And that version of the Technocracy is also there too as much or as little as you want of it.

Personally I like M20s tilt towards Nephandus as being the real villains of the setting and the expansion they received in book of the Fallen 20.

I feel like it's more they wrote the Sons of Ether and Virtual Adepts as shit.

If you're a heroic inventor who wants to save people like Tony Stark, you should be an option for the Sons.

Quote from: Orphan81;1131452There are many things I like about Chronicles, it really comes down to flavor and what you're looking for. There was a time when I liked Chronicles better than WoD. But as I mentioned, the 20th anniversary editions and supplements really brought things back to the modern day and expanded on what I love.

Really for me.. You can't beat the Caine myth of Masquerade. It's so very powerful and evocative. As much as I like Requiem blood potency and how they handle Bloodlines.
When it comes to it, Masquerade and it's secrets and mythos speaks to me far more.

I love many many things about Awakening. It's my favorite of the Chronicle games out of the original 3.. But everything I can do in Awakening, I can do in Ascension but more and better.

I think Chronicles ultimately hobbled itself by being too close to its original source material. It does excel though in the games with no Analogue.. Like Promethean, Vigil, and Deviant.

Vigil is awesome, although I'd say it does have an analogue in the Old World of Darkness.

On the surface, it presents itself as a parallel with Hunter: The Reckoning, but that's not the WoD game that Vigil is aiming for.

Nah, Vigil is what happens when you take The Hunters Hunted from Masquerade 1e or the "Year of the Hunt" books from the Old World of Darkness and upgraded it into a full proper gameline.

Now, personally I don't care too much for the Caine myth in Masquerade and I can take it or leave it, but I was always under the impression that in First Edition and early Second Edition, the Caine origin story was presented as more of a common in-universe theory or old wives' tale that may or may not have been true but was prevalent enough in the Dark Ages to have some weight with the Elders who remember those days.

It fit well with the early materials that suggested Gehenna was cyclical and how nobody knew the true identity of the Antediluvians or even if they were still alive (or undead, as it were)

On an unrelated note, what do you think of my take on a Requiem 1e version of the Giovanni?

I figured making them more of a coterie or faction would jive better with the localized and decentralized mindset early Requiem had.

Beast is a bizarre game and for WW, that is saying a lot. I haven't read it, but I've read bits and pieces including most of the review at Fatal and Friends. Beasts seem completely evil to me, it seems like playing a Beast chronicle would be like playing the Sabbat, Specters, or Black Spiral Dancers - an exercise in what it's like to play a completely unredeemable monster. Maybe even worse than other evil WW splats, because at least some other groups have a higher goal, the Beasts just exist to feed their compulsion to cause suffering with the flimsy justification that they are somehow teaching lessons by tormenting and murdering people. Which makes it all the more bizarre how self righteous the book in in justifying the Beasts and condemning their victims who try to fight back - the Heroes. I don't really know the all of the fact of what exactly Matt McFarland did - rape, statutory rape, sexual harassment, etc. I don't know, but if he is some kind of sexual predator, it adds an entirely new light to Beast and causes it to make more sense. I doubt I'll ever use that game for anything, though if I did it would be villains.

As for drawing parallels between other WoD or CoD villainous factions and real life groups, I can see why some would do it because that is the intent with which the writers created those organizations. Pentax is almost straight out of Captain Planet, meant to represent big bad evil corporations that pollute and supposedly make the world horrible.

The Technocracy is a bit more complex. They do draw on a lot of real life ideas, but I see them in a much more morally gray light. They are certainly totalitarian and a conspiracy that controls and oppresses humanity, though it could be argued that their activities have done a lot more harm than good. It's hard to make such judgement in a setting where reality itself is subjective. I honestly think that depending on the context in which they are presented, that the Technocracy can make both good heroes and good villains. In some ways, I find them more compelling and interesting than the Traditions.

The Camarilla aren't as potentially heroic, but they are also an organization with shades of gray, maybe dark gray, and while maybe not heroes, they can at least be the protagonists in all manner of interesting stories. Just as many sorts of feudal or aristocratic systems through out history and fiction can be the good guys. Like the Technocracy, they can be good bad guys too.

I'm a lot less familiar with CoD than WoD, but is it that woke? I thought that one of the goals of CoD was to make it less political than WoD? Though, I guess these days just about every sort of fantasy or science fiction is being politicized. Which is a shame because I enjoy escapism.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1131458Vigil is awesome, although I'd say it does have an analogue in the Old World of Darkness.

On the surface, it presents itself as a parallel with Hunter: The Reckoning, but that's not the WoD game that Vigil is aiming for.

Nah, Vigil is what happens when you take The Hunters Hunted from Masquerade 1e or the "Year of the Hunt" books from the Old World of Darkness and upgraded it into a full proper gameline.

Now, personally I don't care too much for the Caine myth in Masquerade and I can take it or leave it, but I was always under the impression that in First Edition and early Second Edition, the Caine origin story was presented as more of a common in-universe theory or old wives' tale that may or may not have been true but was prevalent enough in the Dark Ages to have some weight with the Elders who remember those days.

It fit well with the early materials that suggested Gehenna was cyclical and how nobody knew the true identity of the Antediluvians or even if they were still alive (or undead, as it were)

On an unrelated note, what do you think of my take on a Requiem 1e version of the Giovanni?

I figured making them more of a coterie or faction would jive better with the localized and decentralized mindset early Requiem had.

I liked The Hunters Hunted, I haven't played or read Hunter: the Vigil, but if it captures that feel maybe I should check it out.

I think that the Caine myth is interesting, but I always preferred the idea that the origin of vampires as well as the existence of Antediluvians was a mystery and that the Caine myth may or may not have some basis in fact.

Quote from: CTPhipps;1131457I feel like it's more they wrote the Sons of Ether and Virtual Adepts as shit.

If you're a heroic inventor who wants to save people like Tony Stark, you should be an option for the Sons.

I agree with you. The SoE are one of the most problematic Traditions. In the age we live in with pseudoscience and science denial being a real danger.. Having a group whose initial theme was championing discarded scientific ideas was a bad move.

Over the years they've tried to rehabilitate them, but it never quite works as they are the only science group among the Mages. There are "Technomancers" in the other Traditions.. But the Etherites themselves are not Technomancers so to speak... They're using will working through science, except it's not real science except okay maybe it is.. So now their the group if you want to play Rick Sanchez or Doc Brown, which is very limited in scope.

The VAs are fine though being the snti-establishment Techno group. Information wants to be free. Things like wiki leaks, Snowden and The Matrix movies give them thematic punch.

Quote from: ShieldWife;1131460I'm a lot less familiar with CoD than WoD, but is it that woke? I thought that one of the goals of CoD was to make it less political than WoD? Though, I guess these days just about every sort of fantasy or science fiction is being politicized. Which is a shame because I enjoy escapism.

Well WOD was all about the Gothic PUNK, at least in the early editions of Anarchs vs. Camarilla [which then the new owners ditched for Camarilla vs. Sabbat]. Requiem was deeply apolitical.

It actually was kind of ridiculous at times.



I bought New Wave Requiem to do an 80s themed campaign about Vampires. It completely avoided politics except for a vague mention of religion making a comeback in public discourse.

I mean, no matter your politics, the 80s were a fucking political time. Everyone had an opinion on the communists, Reagan, War on Drugs, Thatcher [if you were British], soccer moms terrified of everything their kids might be doing, punk, the economy, AIDs, and aftermath of Vietnam.

Your opinion might be WRONG but you had an opinion.

It kinda ruined the book for me.

If I want to play Call of Duty: Black Ops and kill a bunch of KGB vampires or do some kind of Belial's Brood version of Red Dawn that is impossible. Ditto going against a bunch of smarmy Wallstreet Gordon Gecko types.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1131458Vigil is awesome, although I'd say it does have an analogue in the Old World of Darkness.

On the surface, it presents itself as a parallel with Hunter: The Reckoning, but that's not the WoD game that Vigil is aiming for.

Nah, Vigil is what happens when you take The Hunters Hunted from Masquerade 1e or the "Year of the Hunt" books from the Old World of Darkness and upgraded it into a full proper gameline.

Now, personally I don't care too much for the Caine myth in Masquerade and I can take it or leave it, but I was always under the impression that in First Edition and early Second Edition, the Caine origin story was presented as more of a common in-universe theory or old wives' tale that may or may not have been true but was prevalent enough in the Dark Ages to have some weight with the Elders who remember those days.

It fit well with the early materials that suggested Gehenna was cyclical and how nobody knew the true identity of the Antediluvians or even if they were still alive (or undead, as it were)

On an unrelated note, what do you think of my take on a Requiem 1e version of the Giovanni?

I figured making them more of a coterie or faction would jive better with the localized and decentralized mindset early Requiem had.

There's really so much you can do there which speaks to the strengths of Requiem and reminds me of things I do love about it. Starting with the basis of it being a Crime family subfaction you could go with Invictus like you originally stated or even the Carthians as well. It would depend on what aspect of the family you wanted to emphasize.

Is it ultimate loyalty to the Don at the top, Augustus? Or is it he's in charge but it's more focused on the coterie as a whole?

You also have the options on how you want to present them. It seems like you want them to be not so much a nation wide group, but like an actual local crime syndicate. So I think the biggest descion is do you want them to be a faction or a bloodline?

A subfaction opens it up to multi-clan membership. Hell it could even be a cross-covenant faction that's come together to run things.

But a Bloodline makes them much tighter. You could make it one of the multi-clan bloodlines. Split the difference and have it be both Nosferatu and Ventrue with ultimate Allegiance to Augustus.

Quote from: CTPhipps;1131463Well WOD was all about the Gothic PUNK, at least in the early editions of Anarchs vs. Camarilla [which then the new owners ditched for Camarilla vs. Sabbat]. Requiem was deeply apolitical.

It actually was kind of ridiculous at times.



I bought New Wave Requiem to do an 80s themed campaign about Vampires. It completely avoided politics except for a vague mention of religion making a comeback in public discourse.

I mean, no matter your politics, the 80s were a fucking political time. Everyone had an opinion on the communists, Reagan, War on Drugs, Thatcher [if you were British], soccer moms terrified of everything their kids might be doing, punk, the economy, AIDs, and aftermath of Vietnam.

Your opinion might be WRONG but you had an opinion.

It kinda ruined the book for me.

If I want to play Call of Duty: Black Ops and kill a bunch of KGB vampires or do some kind of Belial's Brood version of Red Dawn that is impossible. Ditto going against a bunch of smarmy Wallstreet Gordon Gecko types.

Well, V:tM had certain times that were political in a sense, but they usually didn't directly tie into modern real world human politics. The clash between the Elders and the Anarchs was a major theme in early V:tM, that was eclipsed by the Camarilla vs Sabbat struggle later on, which was a shame because I liked Anarch vs Elder. But the Camarilla is a semi-feudal system run by undying elders, you don't have to be a Marxist or SJW to be opposed to that. A person's real world politics aren't going to play that much of a role in their feeling about this vampire faction vs that one. Also, while the world of vampires is highly political - both in that they are constantly scheming against each other and that they control politicians, it isn't partisan.

Of course the 1980's were a political time, just like any decade is, but do I really need a role playing book to teach me about the Cold War, Ronald Reagan, or Margaret Thatcher? A vampire book should touch on some of the cultural trends that might influence vampires - like how much promiscuity is condemned or tolerated through the 60's, 70's, and 80's and how it affects hunting, but is doesn't need to make political statements.

With Werewolf: the Apocalypse, things became WAY more political in the sense of having a obvert real world political agendas.

How was opposing the KGB or Wall Street tycoons impossible?

Quote from: Orphan81;1131461I agree with you. The SoE are one of the most problematic Traditions. In the age we live in with pseudoscience and science denial being a real danger.. Having a group whose initial theme was championing discarded scientific ideas was a bad move.

Over the years they've tried to rehabilitate them, but it never quite works as they are the only science group among the Mages. There are "Technomancers" in the other Traditions.. But the Etherites themselves are not Technomancers so to speak... They're using will working through science, except it's not real science except okay maybe it is.. So now their the group if you want to play Rick Sanchez or Doc Brown, which is very limited in scope.

The VAs are fine though being the snti-establishment Techno group. Information wants to be free. Things like wiki leaks, Snowden and The Matrix movies give them thematic punch.

Yeah, I don't think we need any Etherites defending homoepathy. I want to have a bunch of Etherites fighting against the oppressive comspiracy trying to keep you from introducing the cure to AIDs to the masses.

Or, hell, the big ass mecha suit superhero.

Quote from: ShieldWife;1131468How was opposing the KGB or Wall Street tycoons impossible?

The short version being that there was no support for it. I could make up material for the Cold War and evil businessmen for the 80s but why did I buy the supplement in the first place then?

And I agree with you that I don't think the games have to be 100% inherently politcal. A Red State Republican and a Blue State Democrat and a anarchist nutjob are all going to want to oppose the Camarilla in the Anarchs because no one born in the 20th century is going to want to bend down their knee to a feudal system that predates their great-great-grandfathers. Indeed, I always liked that element of the Anarchs. They're a bunch of people united by their hatred of the Camarilla, not because of their beliefs of what comes next. I appreciate that and while I like games having political content, I think a layer of separation is good.

I did this article on the subject:

TOP TEN TIPS ON PLAYING THE ANARCHS

http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/2020/04/ten-tips-to-playing-anarchs.html

Quote from: ShieldWife;1131468How was opposing the KGB or Wall Street tycoons impossible?

The short version being that there was no support for it. I could make up material for the Cold War and evil businessmen for the 80s but why did I buy the supplement in the first place then?

Quote from: CTPhipps;1131469The short version being that there was no support for it. I could make up material for the Cold War and evil businessmen for the 80s but why did I buy the supplement in the first place then?

I don't know why you bought it, I haven't read it, but I presume it has lot's of material in it regarding the 1980's and how vampires fit in. There are any number of things going on in the real world 1980's that could be incorporated into a vampire game, just because it's not included doesn't mean that people are hindered from including it.

Quote from: ShieldWife;1131471I don't know why you bought it, I haven't read it, but I presume it has lot's of material in it regarding the 1980's and how vampires fit in. There are any number of things going on in the real world 1980's that could be incorporated into a vampire game, just because it's not included doesn't mean that people are hindered from including it.

Eh, I'm just saying I felt the supplement wasn't very useful because it didn't contain a good way to incorporate the politics of the time into games. YMMV.

It seemed more interested in talking about video stores and music.

Quote from: Orphan81;1131452There are many things I like about Chronicles, it really comes down to flavor and what you're looking for. There was a time when I liked Chronicles better than WoD. But as I mentioned, the 20th anniversary editions and supplements really brought things back to the modern day and expanded on what I love.

None of which appeals to me. I grew up with the internet, so all this talk of updates sounds to me like "how do you do fellow kids?" ad nauseam. I guess I was just born a generation too late to appreciate WoD.

Quote from: Orphan81;1131452Really for me.. You can't beat the Caine myth of Masquerade. It's so very powerful and evocative. As much as I like Requiem blood potency and how they handle Bloodlines.
When it comes to it, Masquerade and it's secrets and mythos speaks to me far more.

Firstly, this is a false dichotomy since the translation guide is a thing and you can just import the elements you like. That's the point of this thread.

Secondly, you're clearly heavily biased in favor of VTM based on emotions. I see nothing about the Cain-with-an-e myth that makes it any more special than anything else. Aglondir's proposed OSR game about archaeology sounds way more mysterious and interesting to me.

Quote from: Orphan81;1131452I love many many things about Awakening. It's my favorite of the Chronicle games out of the original 3.. But everything I can do in Awakening, I can do in Ascension but more and better.

Again, that's sound like the nostalgia goggles talking.

The bleeding edge or whatever CoD ebook provided rules for stargates and space opera tropes. The translation guide handled other stuff. I can do everything in Ascension with Awakening but more and better. At least in the literal sense, because I can have the Seers, Atlanteans, Technocracies, Kyriarchies, and whatever fighting with fleets of millions of starships across thousands of light years of space and shit. To say nothing of the multiverse shenanigans in the Continuum fanbook.

Quote from: Orphan81;1131452I think Chronicles ultimately hobbled itself by being too close to its original source material. It does excel though in the games with no Analogue.. Like Promethean, Vigil, and Deviant.

In some ways I can agree. CoD basically copied the underworld and penumbra (now twilight) from WoD but with a new coat of paint. I can't say I'm a fan of WW idiosyncrasies like that. I prefer the way that old discontinued wraith fansplat handled it.

Quote from: Orphan81;1131452This is completely disingenuous. The very opening of Wraith is a comic about a guy killed in jail by two thugs and a ferryman showing him various aspects of the afterlife. The state of play in Wraith presents Renegades, Heretics, and the Heiarchy as equal playable factions.. As well as a very strong emphasis on just being dead and dealing with your unfinished business or exploring the afterlife.

It doesn't open with pages telling you this is a game about speaking truth to power and standing up to the oppressed. It tells you this is a game about the restless dead and their passions that drive them.

You're leaving out the part where I stated all Whitewolf games have a political slant to the left, it's just they used to do it better.

I'm not comparing Wraith with Geist. I'm criticizing Wraith based on its own merits and on interactions with the fandom. In my experience, fans liked the underground railroad more than the ghost part. Which alienated me, because I wanted to play ghost stories.

I don't like the renegades, heretics, or the hierarchy. I was disappointed when Geist wasn't about playable ghosts.

As much as you might be obsessed with WoD as being the best game since sliced bread, I don't see the appeal.

Quote from: ShieldWife;1131460I don't know, but if he is some kind of sexual predator, it adds an entirely new light to Beast and causes it to make more sense. I doubt I'll ever use that game for anything, though if I did it would be villains.

Yeah, the game sounds absolutely repulsive to me because it was written as pedophile apologia. Not only that, but Beasts are psychic vampires and therefore their theme is already diluted.

Quote from: ShieldWife;1131460I'm a lot less familiar with CoD than WoD, but is it that woke? I thought that one of the goals of CoD was to make it less political than WoD? Though, I guess these days just about every sort of fantasy or science fiction is being politicized. Which is a shame because I enjoy escapism.

It is still political. The anarchs and camarilla were more or less retained in the form of the carthians and invictus. The path of night was expanded into the lancea+sanctum, the tzimisce philosophy underpins the ordo dracul (although a lot less pointlessly evil), and the bahari probably inspired the circle of the crone.

Aside from changing the window dressing, VTR is essentially the same game as VTM. At least, it was V5 before V5 existed. It also has way more clan/bloodline bloat than VTM ever did.

Quote from: ShieldWife;1131460I liked The Hunters Hunted, I haven't played or read Hunter: the Vigil, but if it captures that feel maybe I should check it out.

Vigil takes the approach of having multiple unrelated groups of monster hunters with distinct motives. The Lucifuge recruits from the supposed children of Lucifer, the Cheiron Group harvests monsters for pharmaceutical research, Ashwood Abbey hunts monsters for sport, Task Force Valkyrie works on the government's payroll, Network Zero are amateur paranormal investigators who coordinate on social media, etc.

Easily one of the single best games ever produced by WW. I'm continually annoyed none of the other games were designed like it was.

Quote from: ShieldWife;1131460I think that the Caine myth is interesting, but I always preferred the idea that the origin of vampires as well as the existence of Antediluvians was a mystery and that the Caine myth may or may not have some basis in fact.

VTR has always had better support for alternative mythologies. I can't remember how many books they had which dealt with the subject, but one was definitely titled Mythologies.

I was always frustrated that Forsaken and Awakening opted for mono-myths rather than the more mysterious archaeology angle that Requiem tried to do.

Quote from: ShieldWife;1131471I don't know why you bought it, I haven't read it, but I presume it has lot's of material in it regarding the 1980's and how vampires fit in. There are any number of things going on in the real world 1980's that could be incorporated into a vampire game, just because it's not included doesn't mean that people are hindered from including it.

For example, the morbus bloodline could have been worked into the AIDS crisis. Since they only drink diseased blood, then the gay community would be a smorgasbord for them. I could imagine that San Francisco into contemporary times could have hosted a prominent morbus community who had recruited from those afflicted by the crisis.

Quote from: CTPhipps;1131473Eh, I'm just saying I felt the supplement wasn't very useful because it didn't contain a good way to incorporate the politics of the time into games. YMMV.

It seemed more interested in talking about video stores and music.

Well, that makes sense. Sometimes I feel like supplements that cover particular places and/or periods in time have a difficult balancing act. What information do they include about the real world, because there are mountains of books written about various places and times and an RPG book isn't going to do it justice. They RPG should give us ways of tying that time and place to the focus of the game, vampires in this case, which must entail giving some very limited information about what is happening there and then. This could be hard too when they are detailing some other nation and culture because there will necessarily be a tendency to stereotype it.

Quote from: CTPhipps;1131469And I agree with you that I don't think the games have to be 100% inherently politcal. A Red State Republican and a Blue State Democrat and a anarchist nutjob are all going to want to oppose the Camarilla in the Anarchs because no one born in the 20th century is going to want to bend down their knee to a feudal system that predates their great-great-grandfathers. Indeed, I always liked that element of the Anarchs. They're a bunch of people united by their hatred of the Camarilla, not because of their beliefs of what comes next. I appreciate that and while I like games having political content, I think a layer of separation is good.

I did this article on the subject:

TOP TEN TIPS ON PLAYING THE ANARCHS

http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/2020/04/ten-tips-to-playing-anarchs.html

Yeah, I've read that and enjoyed it. I do have a point of contention about point 4, because I don't think that most Anarchs expect to have total freedom. The reasonable Anarchs, which should be the majority, should expect that any system that they operate under will have some kind of rules and restrictions. Sometimes I think that there was too little information on what the Anarchs actually did want. I could imagine that many Anarchs would just want the Camarilla (or a system that replaces them) to incorporate some Enlightenment era ideas - some kind of democratic voice for younger vampires, a legal system which protects the accused with due process and a presumption of innocence, right not toe be killed on a whim by the Prince, Sherif, or Archon. That sort of thing.

I could see a discussion along those lines as an interesting role playing scenario, maybe even for a LARP. A bunch of Anarchs are together and are discussing their vision or a better vampiric society, with opinions running the gamut from minor Camarilla reforms (Prince can't kill you without a trial) to another oppressive system with the Anarchs as the new leaders to the complete abolishment of any vampiric law (so actual Anarchy) to maybe even more radical ideas like humanity and vampires living openly together.