Okay, let's keep on doing the unfashionable thing of talking about new games.

Or sorta new games, White Lies is a hack of OD&D and the spy genre. Not convinced that OD&D is the right system for the genre but people have done some pretty cool stuff with OD&D as the chassis as it is so relatively rules light. I also like the visual design.

Well, has anyone read this or better yet played it? It's on sale now and pretty cheap to begin with. Should I pull the trigger? I've been itching to do a Cold War era spy game.

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Never heard of it, but I love OD&D so I'm going to take a peek around the web to see what I can find out.

I'm not sure if OD&D is the "best" for this style of play or not, but I can say that the base OD&D system has worked well for me for Star Wars and other non-fantasy settings over the decades. It's easy to tweak and simple to run, which are clear advantages. When I want to make a "new" OD&D setting I usually just make a list of a few key monsters, a couple of iconic weapons, and a few important NPCs and I'm ready for action.

EDIT: I see it's actually based on the S&W White Box rules that I wrote. Nice, but they seem to credit Matt but not me.

Personally I think you'd have to change so many things from D&D to make it work for this genre that you'd be better off writing a new game designed to emulate the genre rather than trying to shoehorn that 20-sided die and the famous six attributes, etc.

As for whether it's worth getting, do you have any other espionage games? The James Bond 007 RPG can usually be found on Amazon, eBay, and at garage sales for around $5, and I can't see "D&D Spies" outclassing that one.

I do have the James Bond game and it is awesome.

I'm using a modified version of White Lies in a pbp game now.  It's really, really stripped down as far as rules go, so...it works fine.  But it's not a super-exciting presentation of the genre.

There's a decent number of espionage games out there, but just like supers, I've yet to find the one that is hits on all the genre points for me.

Quote from: drkrash;977984I'm using a modified version of White Lies in a pbp game now.  It's really, really stripped down as far as rules go, so...it works fine.  But it's not a super-exciting presentation of the genre.

There's a decent number of espionage games out there, but just like supers, I've yet to find the one that is hits on all the genre points for me.

That would probably because no comic book or spy novel hits all the "genre points" possible, and would be terrible if they tried to. What you need is a game that covers the aspects you enjoy.

I've run a one-shot adventure at a con a few years ago. (Last year?) It was fun. All PCs died in the Bolshoi Theatre Massacre.

The rulebook also has, like, two or three sentences which are direct quotes from a G+ post I wrote regarding it, so naturally it's excellent.

But regarding genre points, it is more about kick-down-the-door James Bond than observe-the-target-for-weeks-from-a-white-van realistic espionage.

Quote from: Dumarest;978142That would probably because no comic book or spy novel hits all the "genre points" possible, and would be terrible if they tried to. What you need is a game that covers the aspects you enjoy.

To clarify, there are some genre tropes of espionage that I have *never* seen adequately done in a game.  The most important example to me is making scenes of tailing/being tailed as exciting as a combat scene in the rules.

And yeah, the White Lies PDF is only about 25% rules.  Most of the rest is random charts for generating old-school Bond villains and their island fortresses surrounded by robot sharks.  It's not the system for Le Carre, for example.

Quote from: drkrash;978323To clarify, there are some genre tropes of espionage that I have *never* seen adequately done in a game.  The most important example to me is making scenes of tailing/being tailed as exciting as a combat scene in the rules.

And yeah, the White Lies PDF is only about 25% rules.  Most of the rest is random charts for generating old-school Bond villains and their island fortresses surrounded by robot sharks.  It's not the system for Le Carre, for example.

Well, it's D&D-derived so it's going to play out that way unless they made major changes to the mechanics.

Quote from: Dumarest;978377Well, it's D&D-derived so it's going to play out that way unless they made major changes to the mechanics.

Yeah, I get it; I know how OD&D works.  The OP wanted some actual play experience.  I have it, so I was describing it.  That's all.  FWIW, despite its limitations, I would consider using it for a spy game just because it *is* so simple.

Quote from: drkrash;978558Yeah, I get it; I know how OD&D works.  The OP wanted some actual play experience.  I have it, so I was describing it.  That's all.  FWIW, despite its limitations, I would consider using it for a spy game just because it *is* so simple.

Oh, I have nothing against it. I haven't played it. I don't really like D&D so none of the "D&D rules transposed to other genres" games hold much interest for me.

For spy games there is also a "retroclone" of James Bond; I forget its name, maybe "Classified" (?) Or something like that, but I seem to recall it's updated vis-a-vis technology. Since James Bond came out in the early 80s, that might be helpful if you want your game set today rather than during the Cold War. James Bond isn't really "kick-the-door-down" that much but it does assume your agents will be competent and getting into rights rather than real-life espionage. I don't think any game would do Le Carre well, but then again I wouldn't want to actually play a Le Carre story as it would be rather dull to my taste...I do enough slow, boring investigations in my real-life job so when I get to play a game I want some action.

Le Carre is slow, boring investigations? I've read The Spy Who Came in from the Cold and that wasn't my impression.

Cold Shadows is a new game coming out set in the Cold War for Le Carre style thrillers.

Quote from: Voros;978590Le Carre is slow, boring investigations? I've read The Spy Who Came in from the Cold and that wasn't my impression.

Cold Shadows is a new game coming out set in the Cold War for Le Carre style thrillers.

No, I'm saying attempting to emulate "realistic" espionage would result in a game of slow, boring investigations generally done more at a desk than sneaking about and getting into firefights and bouts of fisticuffs.  Just as nearly no one would want to play a archaeologist who spends 99% of his time reading and researching rather than being Indiana Jones, not many players would want to be a "realistic " secret agent in an RPG.

Oh for sure. I know Le Carre has a reputation for 'realism' compared to Fleming but his books are still thrillers even if also books of character. I think the biggest influence on him are the 'entertainments' of Graham Greene.

Quote from: Voros;978599Oh for sure. I know Le Carre has a reputation for 'realism' compared to Fleming but his books are still thrillers even if also books of character. I think the biggest influence on him are the 'entertainments' of Graham Greene.

I can't imagine trying to run a game based on The Comedians either. Great novel, but not much you could really do at the table that would be exciting. That's more what I mean.