Quote from: Marleycat;773060Or just take cover and do the same. The problem with all these white room theories is that the game isn't played in a white room....or let's hope not.

Of course, of course.

Except, this funny thing, why is it white room theories?

Which playstyle do I prefer?

The one that doesn't involve some shitweevil going "Hey, watch me ass-rape the system."

Quote from: Sommerjon;773056You realize that is a single class Wizard?

Do you realize that it takes 14 words* to fix this and all similar problems?

"No. Now create a character that will actually be fun for everyone in play."

* Technically it only takes 1 word. But apparently the word "No" is an unknown word to some people.

Quote from: Old One Eye;772407That simple critter strategy defeats a fair number of 3.x uber builds.  Guess a lot of DMs just grind a battle out regardless?

I have gmed a lot of 3X/pathfinder, and I did, when the players were using 'buff endlessly' strategy, often get them to waste buffs on underlings, and have enemies retreat. So yes, if a gm forces combat it's worse.

The higher level buffmongers use scry and teleport to mitigate the casting times of many buff spells.

I really don't enjoy that playstyle, but I have seen a few players that love it.

Quote from: Sommerjon;773100Of course, of course.

Except, this funny thing, why is it white room theories?

In 5e Invisibility is actually very situational unless you have the correct class or subclass or skill set profs. In most cases it's just better to use cover and save that slot.

I've experienced something in the charop department several times now, over the years, and I wonder how common it is: PCs looking for abusive builds NOT to break the game or to annoy the DM, but to stay ahead in an "arms race" with other PCs.

I know it makes no sense in terms of a "cooperative venture," but there's almost always a PC or two or three who can't resist a certain amount of one-upmanship, and in many cases, outright bullying, of other player-characters.

And even in cases where it falls short of bullying, it can still evolve into a alpha style leadership contest, when it come to group decisions.

It starts off in various ways. Someone gets a little drunk with power after acquiring a certain magic item or class feature. Or getting more experience points than someone else. Or simply getting aggravated that one character ran away from a melee situation (regardless of the wisdom and tactical advisability of doing so), or sometimes just alignment conflicts for people who wear those on their sleeve.

Then, after a little pushing and shoving, theoretical discussions begin about how one character could clean the other's clock, and then each of them starts looking for ways to trump the other.

From what I've seen, it reached it's peak in 3.5 because of all the charop commentary online, the magic item shopping mart, and all the splat books.

But was it just us?

Quote from: Saplatt;773500I've experienced something in the charop department several times now, over the years, and I wonder how common it is: PCs looking for abusive builds NOT to break the game or to annoy the DM, but to stay ahead in an "arms race" with other PCs.

I know it makes no sense in terms of a "cooperative venture," but there's almost always a PC or two or three who can't resist a certain amount of one-upmanship, and in many cases, outright bullying, of other player-characters.

And even in cases where it falls short of bullying, it can still evolve into a alpha style leadership contest, when it come to group decisions.

It starts off in various ways. Someone gets a little drunk with power after acquiring a certain magic item or class feature. Or getting more experience points than someone else. Or simply getting aggravated that one character ran away from a melee situation (regardless of the wisdom and tactical advisability of doing so), or sometimes just alignment conflicts for people who wear those on their sleeve.

Then, after a little pushing and shoving, theoretical discussions begin about how one character could clean the other's clock, and then each of them starts looking for ways to trump the other.

From what I've seen, it reached it's peak in 3.5 because of all the charop commentary online, the magic item shopping mart, and all the splat books.

But was it just us?

Not just you, and prevalent in online forums as well.  Mostly from the uber balance crowd (demanding that every PC have the same starting stats and do the exact same damage per round, etc).  Such reactions tell me that somewhere along the way, they had one of these players you describe, who had to be better than everyone else, touch them in their special private place.

Quote from: Saplatt;773500But was it just us?

"The fault was not in our stars..."

I think there's a 'kinder' arms race, where people try to be useful or not feel useless.

It's still dysfunctional, but the motive isn't quite as nasty.

Quote from: Will;773504I think there's a 'kinder' arms race, where people try to be useful or not feel useless.

It's still dysfunctional, but the motive isn't quite as nasty.

You're absolutely correct IMO.

In my group, whenever any of us ended up a bit subpar, we tried harder.

Quote from: Will;773504I think there's a 'kinder' arms race, where people try to be useful or not feel useless.

It's still dysfunctional, but the motive isn't quite as nasty.

I believe being useful and or having a niche is very important.

One pc may be the 'diplomat'; another may be tha tank/melee killing machine; another has arcane magic; another might be able to heal.

What sometimes bothers me is when you have a pc that eclipses other pc's in all ways.

Some may enjoy that, but it's not fun for me personally to be 'superman' or 'clark kent'

Well, what I mean is, if I show up and I feel like I'd have helped the party more if I stayed home, that pushes me to optimize.

And then when someone optimizes out of fun or to be more 'useful for the party,' then others feel compelled to do the same, because they don't want to feel useless/let others down.

And it spirals.

But yeah, the eclipsing/standing out is another one. I'm all for 'doing it for the art,' but when you find Jane Optimizer can do everything you can AND more stuff... again, I feel pointless.

One thing I've noticed is that most of the focus for this stuff seems to happen in "downtime" or when the PCs aren't particularly challenged. When the DM turns up the heat, there tends to be less of this PvP stuff and a little more cooperation.

 

Quote from: Sacrosanct;773501Not just you, and prevalent in online forums as well.  Mostly from the uber balance crowd (demanding that every PC have the same starting stats and do the exact same damage per round, etc).  Such reactions tell me that somewhere along the way, they had one of these players you describe, who had to be better than everyone else, touch them in their special private place.

I think it can be worse than even that.

I know there are people who freak out just theorizing that someone MIGHT be able to do so-n-so and so they set out to prevent this thing from ever being. It doesnt matter if the thing is unlikely to ever happen even. The mere thought it can happen sets them off on a crusade.

Others freak out because someone told them a scary story about a power gamer.

Combine these with actual bad experiences and the usual internet "I hate it because someone told me to hate it." loons and its no wonder 4e ended up like it did.

Quote from: Bren;773124Do you realize that it takes 14 words* to fix this and all similar problems?

"No. Now create a character that will actually be fun for everyone in play."

* Technically it only takes 1 word. But apparently the word "No" is an unknown word to some people.

The quote is someone casting spells.  At what point do you say "No. Now create a character that will actually be fun for everyone in play." ?