Quote from: Sacrosanct;771986Hey, if they have fun, more power to them.


Just not at my table

But they need your table to play the board game!

Mathsnore incoming... :enworld:

I've had players like that before. Problem is I can out system mastery most people so I hold that as the threat in an arms war. Therefore my players behave. And It don't cheat or use DM fiat I use intelligent enemies and that is enough.

But most my players don't try, they play their character. I only have one that is an issue and he is just overly paranoid and doesn't want to be hit by anything ever in any game. You get use to dealing with it or you boot them. I choose to keep him around and only occasionally regret it

Woah, impressive combination! Right up to the part where Anti-magic field is enacted...

My 3.5 character could kick his 3.5 character's ass any day of the week.

And my DM still finds ways to terrorize me.

Whoever designed the rules which allow this shit should be kicked in the junk with a steel-toed boot.

Meh, it was fun for about the length of one campaign and then we all grew up.

Fuggit.  

/swings sword

Rocks fall. Everybody dies. Roll new characters using this (hands over Moldvay Basic). You have 3 minutes.

Quote from: Batman;772010Woah, impressive combination! Right up to the part where Anti-magic field is enacted...

With Magic Sniper...

Quote from: Bill;771906Do you like this:



Or do you just like to play a character?

False choice. One can do both, either or neither.

The first however is not a failure of play as most here would take it. It's a failure of system- a concept I've taken to calling the "Endless Stacking of Bonuses".

It's one of the most common ways Game Designers break their games. Remove it and the behavior it causes will cease.

Quote from: gleichman;772079False choice. One can do both, either or neither.

The first however is not a failure of play as most here would take it. It's a failure of system- a concept I've taken to calling the "Endless Stacking of Bonuses".

It's one of the most common ways Game Designers break their games. Remove it and the behavior it causes will cease.

   It's not just the Endless Stacking of Bonuses that contributes to things like this--that's a key component, but I don't think it's the only factor. Something else that contributes, and that sets 3E apart from all other forms of D&D, is a) the number of spells and b) the lack of any meaningful controls on wizard, cleric or druid access to them. The costs of acquiring spells for wizards appear to be negligible (it's been a long time since I looked closely at the 3E rules, but no one seems concerned about it in these exercises) and for clerics and druids, it's non-existent. There are no caps on spells known for wizards any more, spell slots are more plentiful, and scrolls, wands and potions are cheap and can contain just about any spell you like.

   There are a lot of legitimate criticisms and differences of taste with 4E, but it did keep one character from being able to pick anything and everything they wanted from their class power list. Similarly, old-school versions of D&D made it a lot harder to pull off these stunts by making spells rarer, less guaranteed, and requiring trade-offs with the cap on spells known. (I don't think Basic had the Max Spells Known, but it had so many fewer spells, even with supplements, that it wasn't nearly the issue. )

   5E? I haven't done a careful examination, but the 'cheap and easily replaced scrolls/wands for any spell' appear to be gone, and spell slots are a lot fewer. Bonus stacking's iffy--there are no hard and fast rules against it, but the emphasis on advantage instead of straight bonuses and the concentration mechanic should prevent the worst of it, provided they don't lose sight of their premises like they did in previous editions.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;772089It's not just the Endless Stacking of Bonuses that contributes to things like this--that's a key component, but I don't think it's the only factor. Something else that contributes, and that sets 3E apart from all other forms of D&D, is a) the number of spells and b) the lack of any meaningful controls on wizard, cleric or druid access to them.

I don't consider myself really able to comment on that specific of a case with any version of D&D having given up on a few decades back, but I have no reason to doubt you on this.

There is a serious desire in gamers (if one judges solely by popular games) for an endless parade of goodies- be it bonuses, spells, magic items, or... well anything that increases their in-game power. The thing is, that parade causes the very behavior they complain about.

There are a few exceptions. I find it useful with recruiting players to ask the following questions (along with others). A "No" at any point means that it would likely take too much effort to convert them to a non-destructive style of play.

• Are you willing to play a game where your character doesn't advance in power or skill?
• Are you willing to play a game where there is no treasure.

This problem area always existed in the hobby, but I do think this is one place where video games have made things worse.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;772089Something else that contributes, and that sets 3E apart from all other forms of D&D, is a) the number of spells and b) the lack of any meaningful controls on wizard, cleric or druid access to them. The costs of acquiring spells for wizards appear to be negligible (it's been a long time since I looked closely at the 3E rules, but no one seems concerned about it in these exercises) and for clerics and druids, it's non-existent. There are no caps on spells known for wizards any more, spell slots are more plentiful, and scrolls, wands and potions are cheap and can contain just about any spell you like.

Yep. That's a huge huge part of it. Also, your big-league 3e system-breakers often involve polymorph/shapechange abuse and treating the monster selection as a shopping list. As this bullshit exercise does (the fuck is a "cave troll" anyway)

The observant will note that neither multiclassing nor feats, two aspects of 3e that get a lot of shit around here, show up in this bullshit. There are some valid reasons to be against them (mostly involving bookkeeping, which is another 3e problem) but they don't break the power curve the way this kinda thing does.

Quote from: Imp;772108Yep. That's a huge huge part of it. Also, your big-league 3e system-breakers often involve polymorph/shapechange abuse and treating the monster selection as a shopping list. As this bullshit exercise does (the fuck is a "cave troll" anyway)

The observant will note that neither multiclassing nor feats, two aspects of 3e that get a lot of shit around here, show up in this bullshit. There are some valid reasons to be against them (mostly involving bookkeeping, which is another 3e problem) but they don't break the power curve the way this kinda thing does.

Multiclassing sure as shit does, as it's often used to optimize builds with up to a half dozen classes in a build.  Multiclassing exploits occur just as much, if not more, than spell selection and usage.