Quote from: Itachi on January 17, 2022, 06:44:35 PM
@Tenbones, it seems to me you're shifting the goalposts. You said earlier that favor mechanics bypassed roleplaying or made it moot. I gave you an example showing this isn't the case, where every use of Favor mechanics is accompanied by, and intrinsically linked to, roleplaying. Sure, you may dislike how the system incentivizes certain behaviors. Sagas has a very specific agenda and it's use of Bonds reflects that, so it will displease lots of people (like any mechanics, really). But saying it substitutes roleplaying with some "roll-off of the dice", as you did, just isn't true.


*speaking of incentives, I always found it amusing when people get bothered by rules that give incentives to certain areas but not for others, no matter how subtle or blatant the case.

No, *my* goalpost is roleplaying. The simple act of you and I sitting there pretending to be "characters". That requires *no* mechanics. The moment you have to put a mechanic in-between us playing our characters  you begin abstracting and removing us from my primary goal - to roleplay as up-close and personal as we can get and have challenging fun.

I came into this thread because I do realize mechanics in games are needed and I'm always interested in something novel that I could use. I'm not convinced of that after reading this thread and asking the questions I have asked. I have yet to see "Favor" mechanics that made roleplaying better or enhanced any of the TTRPG's I play. Now that doesn't mean there aren't games out there that by intention are not designed for the kind of roleplaying I place a premium on. But I think that delves into discussions like "Are these roleplaying games?" or are they "Enhanced board games?" or something like that - which is not the topic of the thread.

These are games, I'm not "bothered" AT ALL by people liking something I don't care for. I literally posted that upthread in a couple of places. No harm, no foul. I'm not convinced of your examples that I get any use out what you're proposing. That is all. If you want to debate why - sure. But again, that seems to be a thread-derail. My questions about what these "Favor Mechanics" are have been answered sufficiently.

If you wanna prosecute my opinions, make a thread, I'm down to explore that.

Quote from: tenbones on January 18, 2022, 11:27:37 AMNo, *my* goalpost is roleplaying.

Don't look so. Your goalpost seems more like a very specific style of roleplaying that you happen to like, but that exists between a myriad other styles in the hobby that you, for some reason - probably for lack of familiarity - is being dismissive to. I don't see the reason for us to continue with this conversation as it's got to a point where you're implying we are not even playing RPGs, which I find very delusional and a tad arrogant. I'll just leave this here, so you can get acquainted to what is being played in this hobby called "Roleplaying Games" as of 2021. Maybe you learn something, maybe not (probably not, judging by your posts):

All those people playing Blades in the Dark, Dungeon World, Apocalypse World and FFG Star Wars must be mistaken to think those are RPGs, right? 

Source: https://www.dramadice.com/blog/the-most-played-tabletop-rpgs-in-2021/

Id say blades in the dark and apocalypse world are not really roleplaying games. Its like saying One Night Ultimate Werewolf is a roleplaying game. Its more rpg then boardgame, buts its still not a full rpg.

And im not opposed to some degree of favor mechanics for tracking and character creation reasons. I can be buff from my backstory and favor mechanics allow me to be popular as an option instead.

Quote from: Itachi on January 18, 2022, 04:05:20 PM

Quote from: tenbones on January 18, 2022, 11:27:37 AMNo, *my* goalpost is roleplaying.

Don't look so. Your goalpost seems more like a very specific style of roleplaying that you happen to like, but that exists between a myriad other styles in the hobby that you, for some reason - probably for lack of familiarity - is being dismissive to. I don't see the reason for us to continue with this conversation as it's got to a point where you're implying we are not even playing RPGs, which I find very delusional and a tad arrogant. I'll just leave this here, so you can get acquainted to what is being played in this hobby called "Roleplaying Games" as of 2021. Maybe you learn something, maybe not (probably not, judging by your posts):

All those people playing Blades in the Dark, Dungeon World, Apocalypse World and FFG Star Wars must be mistaken to think those are RPGs, right? 

Source: https://www.dramadice.com/blog/the-most-played-tabletop-rpgs-in-2021/

You don't have to "look" at anything. My goalpost is standing nicely. You'll note I did not mention a single system in my definition of roleplaying - I simply said, yet again, I like my roleplaying up close and as unimpeded by mechanics as possible. There is no mention of any system. So it's not to impugn you or anyone else on whatever kind of games you wanna play. And as I said - if you want to make a separate thread to discuss what is/isn't roleplaying I'm game. Otherwise...

As for being dismissive - am I supposed to like everything everyone else likes?? I came into this thread asking a basic question, it's been answered, I'm not telling you "do it my way" I was looking for examples, got them, thank you, and what? You want to tell me I'm beholden to playing things I don't like?? Or if I don't like them that somehow castigates people that do? No, not really.

I don't get where you're going with this. I also don't get why what *I* think is roleplaying in terms of game-brand is important to you? If it is that important, start another thread. We can explore it together.

LOL as an aside - that list is *hilarious* considering the population of this forum. And don't project too hard on what you think I'm familiar with, I think I own 90% of that list and did design-work for a few of them.

Yes, most of it doesn't get much use for very good reasons.

Quote from: tenbones on December 29, 2021, 11:34:24 AMSo I just notate, notate, notate and update things between sessions.

And yet, you seem to have missed that tracking Favor points is a method of notating.

... but based on the examples given the "Currency" actually demands discrete behaviors and choices.

A "notation" could literally be anything depending on the circumstances of the game and the characters actions within it, which could change at any point. Subjectivity is not lost to the objective demands of the mechanic. I.e. you/I are not forced to conform to a mechanic to decide our actions that otherwise Of course this is based on the examples given.

"Favor" points is not *just* not notating in this case either. It's largely static as presented - you hold currency until it is spent. Unless you have some other mechanic that removes them - which again is another abstraction which further removes my main goal in roleplaying regardless of system.

This is not to say there aren't social mechanics that exist in various games I like - they are more generalized. Karma system in MSH, Honor System in OA1e, etc.

But these inform the player on their roleplaying- they are free to transgress those implied "correct" social mores as they see fit - and pay whatever price for them. The difference is subtle and not without their problems (including with me) but relevant - and unsurprisingly probably the most complained about parts of MSH and OA1e, as an example.

Which examples are these? Since I don't find Favor mechanics confusing or any more problematic than other mechanics in RPGs, I haven't tracked every example in the thread so maybe there is one I missed that matches what you've said. But the ones I've noticed treat Favor as a modifier to the success of an action, not the sole determiner. You keep responding as if the examples make Favor the sole determiner of an interaction, a sort of automatic win button. I haven't noticed anyone say that's how they use Favor.

I'm not familiar with the two games you mentioned, but based on the little you've said, if Honor and Karma are something that is numerically tracked, it seems those mechanics would effect roleplaying in the same way tracking Favor effects roleplaying. Why are Honor and Karma something that needs to be tracked, but tracking Favor is something you believe will decrease or negatively effect roleplaying?

Quote from: Bren on January 19, 2022, 06:48:37 PM
Which examples are these? Since I don't find Favor mechanics confusing or any more problematic than other mechanics in RPGs, I haven't tracked every example in the thread so maybe there is one I missed that matches what you've said. But the ones I've noticed treat Favor as a modifier to the success of an action, not the sole determiner. You keep responding as if the examples make Favor the sole determiner of an interaction, a sort of automatic win button. I haven't noticed anyone say that's how they use Favor.

Without me re-litigating the whole thing - I only came in here asking what is the purpose of Favor Mechanics that isn't resolved by roleplaying. It was for my own edification. It appears people take umbrage to my lack of being convinced. /shrug.

Quote from: Bren on January 19, 2022, 06:48:37 PM
I'm not familiar with the two games you mentioned, but based on the little you've said, if Honor and Karma are something that is numerically tracked, it seems those mechanics would effect roleplaying in the same way tracking Favor effects roleplaying. Why are Honor and Karma something that needs to be tracked, but tracking Favor is something you believe will decrease or negatively effect roleplaying?

You're halfway there. Karma and Honor in their respective systems are designed purely to reward and guide behavior - but they are not implicit. In MSH - you are free to do all the evil shit you want. But you will pay for it if you're a hero. It's not "Favor" mechanics - as they have rules for that using Contacts, it strictly roleplayed and the check is to determine whether or not the Contact is available (Dr. Strange may be off on his own adventure). Honor in OA1e - is D&D1e, it only matters if you're part of Kara-Turan cultures that practice it and you're of sufficient caste to have it. It's both stick-and-carrot to get your PC into the social-mores of those cultures. There is plenty of roleplaying options to mitigate losses and gains. It's not necessarily strictly black-and-white, though people that don't understand it have debated for years over it.

I use Honor and Karma as an example of social mechanics that I personally find acceptable roleplaying incentives despite whatever controversies they have earned over the decades. Both systems have been overhauled to being unnecessary if you want. I've used Fate mechanics to replace MSH Karma, and OA1e Honor too. The devil is in the details - the games being talked about in terms of Favor Mechanics in this thread I can't speak to, but they don't appear to be that flexible, or it's not desirable by those that play with them.

Quote from: tenbones on January 20, 2022, 05:30:18 PMWithout me re-litigating the whole thing - I only came in here asking what is the purpose of Favor Mechanics that isn't resolved by roleplaying. It was for my own edification. It appears people take umbrage to my lack of being convinced. /shrug.

Not so much umbrage, as frustration that you ignored what people said about how Favor worked in specific systems or how they used Favor when they GM to talk about some idea in your head, divorced from any system, about how Favor mechanics work and why they won't work for you. There a crap load of RPGs these days so their probably is a game that matches the idea you have in your head for Favor mechanics. But that idea hasn't seemed to match the mechanics other people in the thread have been using.

QuoteYou're halfway there. Karma and Honor in their respective systems are designed purely to reward and guide behavior - but they are not implicit. In MSH - you are free to do all the evil shit you want. But you will pay for it if you're a hero.

That's similar to how Favor works. Your PC can ignore a Favor someone uses against them and so could the NPC, but there would be some societal cost to this failure to pay your debt and abide by the culturally well understood rules of behavior. Generally the NPCs aren't going to take the hit to their reputation, honor, social rank or whatever that ignoring the debt represented by a Favor will cost. But if they don't like you or don't like what you asked for, one should expect that they will follow the letter of the request, provide the minimum support required, or do something else to you after paying the Favor for causing them trouble, pain, or annoyance. You don't need a Favor to ask (or demand) someone do something for you. The Favor just means they owe you for some prior act and thus are highly unlikely to just laugh in your face at your request before they have their footman toss you out in the street like the presumptuous upstart that your PC has shown themself to be...Because that's how this society works and hardly anyone, even villains, wants to be a total social pariah.

Often the objection a player has to mechanics like Honor, Karma, Favors, Traits, Passions, and Flaws that limit or affect the behavior of their PC is really a desire not to play in the setting or genre that has been pitched. They don't want to play the honorable noble duelist in a Musketeers campaign who tosses the sword back to the bad guy so the duel can continue fairly. They want to play a character like Indiana Jones who shoots the big Arab with the big sword instead of dueling him. So one additional benefit of these sorts of social mechanics is they often quickly reveal which players ought to be playing at somebody else's table.

Quote from: tenbones on January 20, 2022, 05:30:18 PMWithout me re-litigating the whole thing - I only came in here asking what is the purpose of Favor Mechanics that isn't resolved by roleplaying.

From personal experience...Its sort of similar to some trade mechanics. At times as a GM its difficult to assertain how much is 'good enough', and how much should a good argument/good roll lead too. When Im running a game, Im managing many things at once, and so in the moment just saying 'Uh....+70%?' happens and in the end I either have to let the players keep a unrealistically large/small some of money, or have to take-backsies later.

A rule helps codify some things and ground me when Im in the process of simulating a universe. How much help can the PCs call apon? How fast will it respond if they do? Will this strain further relations?

Yes at time this can be inorganic, but so can PCs surviving explosions going off near their face, if that makes sense. Like any mechanic, its important to know when personal judgement should override.

I think there is a big distinction between the two.

Economics in/out of game is literally relating to currency of value. I will concede there is this element today that I do see in many games (some of which I play) that advocate for handwavium when it comes "wealth" by abstracting it to a discrete stat to be rolled. This is not even a new thing - MSH has been doing it for 30+ years (that system was WAAAAAAAYYYY ahead of its time).

But the reality is that economics are not "roleplaying", they're elements that can impact roleplaying - like a guy owes you money, what do you do?

"Favors" are a thing that need to be defined in order for it to be a mechanic to instill value. Since "Favors" implies discrete actions - which does include all kinds of things. For a mechanic to be useful, like currency, it needs to have a value. I contend that the nuances of real PC/NPC interactions in roleplaying are more useful.

The corollary of this that is not spoken - both in "Favors" and "Economics" in game is the skill of the GM behind the scenes.

Of course the devil is in the details. I'm always open to checking out new ways to doing things - but I'm also not required to use something I don't need, which others might find value in.

To your specific point - one "abstract" way of doing trade I always liked was the The Trader Kit in 2e D&D, which allowed a player to own "Cargo" in discrete units. Everytime they pulled into a new place where they can ply their trade they can roll 1d6 per unit of cargo and make <X> amount of money. They can always buy more or sell cargo as units to increase/lower their supply. What I liked about this abstract mechanic is that it allowed me to tweak values based on location (Demand) and rarity (Quality) - which of course allowed me to engage in more dynamic roleplaying anytime I felt it was useful in the game.

I'm not against the idea of "Favor" mechanics as an idea. But again, the devil is in the details of how those mechanics are expressed.

Quote from: Bren on January 20, 2022, 05:54:25 PM
Not so much umbrage, as frustration that you ignored what people said about how Favor worked in specific systems or how they used Favor when they GM to talk about some idea in your head, divorced from any system, about how Favor mechanics work and why they won't work for you. There a crap load of RPGs these days so their probably is a game that matches the idea you have in your head for Favor mechanics. But that idea hasn't seemed to match the mechanics other people in the thread have been using.

Until I had to ask specifically - I had no idea what they were talking about, so I can't be faulted for what people are thinking without knowing. That's the entire reason why I asked.

Quote from: Bren on January 20, 2022, 05:54:25 PMOften the objection a player has to mechanics like Honor, Karma, Favors, Traits, Passions, and Flaws that limit or affect the behavior of their PC is really a desire not to play in the setting or genre that has been pitched. They don't want to play the honorable noble duelist in a Musketeers campaign who tosses the sword back to the bad guy so the duel can continue fairly. They want to play a character like Indiana Jones who shoots the big Arab with the big sword instead of dueling him. So one additional benefit of these sorts of social mechanics is they often quickly reveal which players ought to be playing at somebody else's table.

The difference is in the systems I cited (one could argue this isn't true of MSH, but nearly 40-years of play has proven most people don't play it this way by having expanded on the obvious corollaries of what the Karma system implies. Even in the base system they explain how Villains work with it, but I digress) they are at the PC-level. The PC is built with the assumption they are going to engage in that kind of play, the rest of the system doesn't depend on it. You *can* play a character in OA1e without using the Honor system. Just like you can be a regular 1e D&D character not even from the culture there, and you don't have to interact with that mechanic.

The implication of a "Favor mechanic" sounds like a global conceit - without having a system I could point at. Again, much like OA1e, and MSH, these things are entirely driven by roleplaying choices, not by mechanics, though mechanics may impact that roleplaying. This adheres to my own personal desires of keeping roleplaying first, mechanics second.

This MAY/MAY NOT be the case in the systems being discussed without my knowledge, but that's precisely why I'm asking.

Quote from: tenbones on January 21, 2022, 11:13:36 AM
I think there is a big distinction between the two.

Id say no.
Well money is also resources. Favors are an abstract measure of resources you can get from somebody, how fast can you get them, and what kind and the consequences for doing so.

QuoteBut the reality is that economics are not "roleplaying", they're elements that can impact roleplaying - like a guy owes you money, what do you do?

Abstract white void money dispenser NPC #76G may be easy to just quickly say if he pays back the money or not. But if its lets say...Restaraunt owner Bobby. Does he actually have the money? How fast can he get it if it doesn't and how much does does it hurt him if he does? Would he be willing to make such risks again? Some background systems can help make me take actions as a GM that I may not out of a desire to default to convenience (Every GM does this subconciously).

Favor mechanics can be like morale mechanics, or like hit points (even wound levels or bennies), or like spell points or anything that doesn't have a 1-1 measurable 'stat' in the world. All can get in the way of roleplaying. Otherwise the truest essense of roleplaying is just collaborative storytelling with no mechanics. Which I don't think is what you believe.

Quote from: tenbones on January 21, 2022, 11:13:36 AMwhich of course allowed me to engage in more dynamic roleplaying anytime I felt it was useful in the game.

Well yeah, favor mechanics can be similar. "You crashed the mercenary companies helicopter, and wether or not it was justified, they are loathe to give you more stuff until its either been repaired or you pay the money back." So from there the PCs can enact their own plans on how to fix this (maybe sleeping with the merc head of accounting).

Quote from: tenbones on January 21, 2022, 11:22:33 AMThe implication of a "Favor mechanic" sounds like a global conceit - without having a system I could point at.

A Favor mechanic won't apply globally - as in all over the globe - so Favor is global only in the sense that if we agree we are going to play Musketeers in sort-of 17th century France, much of play will occur in or around France and in cultures that are similar to that of the PCs and their potential patrons. So everybody has the same cultural expectations of what owing a Favor is supposed to mean just like they have similar expectations of what Honor means. (Whether the players want their PCs to act honorably is a separate question.)

If we put the PCs on a ship that runs aground in Japan, where they then take up rice farming or running a noodle shop, the Favor mechanic isn't something that makes a lot of sense to include in the game. The PCs won't (at least for some time) understand the Japanese culture and so the locals won't act in predictable ways vis a vis the cultural expectations of a PC who is a French Musketeer or noble or a Jesuit priest.