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Author Topic: Which Games Have The Favor Economy Built Into The Rules?  (Read 9695 times)

KingCheops

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Re: Which Games Have The Favor Economy Built Into The Rules?
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2021, 12:29:03 PM »
Not a game designer myself but I'd assume that since it is so important in real life most designers would just assume this is something players can handle without needing codified rules.  Honestly actual rules do seem rather burdensome.
I have noticed players go with what rewards them in game terms. If you give EXP for looting, players will loot. If you give EXP for establishing a NPC network, players will establish a NPC network.

You play some very different games than I do.  Usually a player that wants to build a network is doing so because it is a reward for the player in and of itself.  They don't do it for the stats on their character sheet but do it for the feeling of being a power broker.

The reason I enjoyed a system for it as presented in Shadowrun was because I wanted a way to track loose lips.  The pool of terrorists in Seattle, while big, is not infinite so if one group is planning something word will get around.  It was a way for me to rein in the power of the social monkeys without just always saying "No your contact can't do that."  Now it became "Sure your contact can do that but he'll have to ask around and the wrong people might find out."

Bren

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Re: Which Games Have The Favor Economy Built Into The Rules?
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2022, 10:42:44 PM »
That sounds interesting.
I enjoyed having some mechanical weight to favors.

I'm not trying to be sarcastic - but "favors" are just... roleplaying right?
Sure. As is combat.
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tenbones

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Re: Which Games Have The Favor Economy Built Into The Rules?
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2022, 09:11:58 AM »
No - mean "favors" is just the byproduct of normal roleplaying. Sure combat is - but that's usually binary (but not always).

The question I have is - "what is a favor"?? Seems to be something that one just does as a matter of roleplaying. My NPC's have agendas, "favors" are pretty much negotiated normally with PC's based on that position and circumstances happening in the game.

What necessitates "mechanics" for something that seems kinda obvious to me? What am I missing?

Example: PC 1 has a 2 "Favor" points and he has a list of what he can demand as "Favor" off a "Favor Table"? What if the NPC can't grant it? Or are we assuming some other metacurrency Favors can be representative of? Like a Favor can be "Crashspace - Crashspace heals the PC 3d10 HP"  or something like that?

HappyDaze

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Re: Which Games Have The Favor Economy Built Into The Rules?
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2022, 10:30:30 AM »
No - mean "favors" is just the byproduct of normal roleplaying. Sure combat is - but that's usually binary (but not always).

The question I have is - "what is a favor"?? Seems to be something that one just does as a matter of roleplaying. My NPC's have agendas, "favors" are pretty much negotiated normally with PC's based on that position and circumstances happening in the game.

What necessitates "mechanics" for something that seems kinda obvious to me? What am I missing?

Example: PC 1 has a 2 "Favor" points and he has a list of what he can demand as "Favor" off a "Favor Table"? What if the NPC can't grant it? Or are we assuming some other metacurrency Favors can be representative of? Like a Favor can be "Crashspace - Crashspace heals the PC 3d10 HP"  or something like that?
I know you've seen Edge of the Empire. Start with how Obligation works and adjust to taste.

Greentongue

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Re: Which Games Have The Favor Economy Built Into The Rules?
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2022, 01:46:20 PM »
I see it as something that ties the PC to the setting. Having a mechanic seems to help players engage. Certainly GM tend to track that sort of thing but I've noticed not all players do. What do "MuderHobos" care about owing or being owed two towns back?

Eirikrautha

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Re: Which Games Have The Favor Economy Built Into The Rules?
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2022, 02:34:59 PM »
No - mean "favors" is just the byproduct of normal roleplaying. Sure combat is - but that's usually binary (but not always).

The question I have is - "what is a favor"?? Seems to be something that one just does as a matter of roleplaying. My NPC's have agendas, "favors" are pretty much negotiated normally with PC's based on that position and circumstances happening in the game.

What necessitates "mechanics" for something that seems kinda obvious to me? What am I missing?

Example: PC 1 has a 2 "Favor" points and he has a list of what he can demand as "Favor" off a "Favor Table"? What if the NPC can't grant it? Or are we assuming some other metacurrency Favors can be representative of? Like a Favor can be "Crashspace - Crashspace heals the PC 3d10 HP"  or something like that?

Yep.  The great roleplaying dichotomy:  Those who want combat to be more like social interactions (fluid and amorphous), and those who want social interaction to be more like combat (rigidly defined by rules and numbers).  Both sides are wrong...

Greentongue

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Re: Which Games Have The Favor Economy Built Into The Rules?
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2022, 04:25:18 PM »
Yep.  The great roleplaying dichotomy:  Those who want combat to be more like social interactions (fluid and amorphous), and those who want social interaction to be more like combat (rigidly defined by rules and numbers).  Both sides are wrong...
Yet you are not.
People need rules because their virtual lives are at stake and they want to feel that they can control what happens to them.
Back In The Day, there was a "Judge" and their word was the deciding factor. Didn't need no stinking rules!
Now there is strong attachment to the little figurine/avatar and nobody better screw with it without showing me a RULE.
;)

Bren

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Re: Which Games Have The Favor Economy Built Into The Rules?
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2022, 10:05:16 PM »
What necessitates "mechanics" for something that seems kinda obvious to me? What am I missing?

Example: PC 1 has a 2 "Favor" points and he has a list of what he can demand as "Favor" off a "Favor Table"? What if the NPC can't grant it? Or are we assuming some other metacurrency Favors can be representative of? Like a Favor can be "Crashspace - Crashspace heals the PC 3d10 HP"  or something like that?
2 Favor Points isn't how Favors work in the systems I mentioned.

It is a type of currency. Not really meta, since the people in the setting also track who owes whom and how much. You have a Favor from a specific person (so that works like your GM writes down details method), but the Favor is based on that persons Social Rank (SR). So you might have a SR-9 favor from Sir Chris who, in setting, is a knight. You might have a SR-16 Favor from Archduke Frederick. Or if you were extremely fortunate, you might have two SR-16 favors from the Archduke. The Social Rank part of the favor provides guidelines on what the Favor might accomplish or who else it might influence. You can have a dozen SR-9 Favors, but using them isn't going to influence the Archduke.

The currency helps everyone at the table keep track of who owes whom and makes it more transparent to the player what they are owed - which is something the characters in the setting will understand well, while the player may not.

Is all that necessary? No. But neither are combat rules longer than a paragraph or two of text using a single six-sided die for resolution.
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Itachi

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Re: Which Games Have The Favor Economy Built Into The Rules?
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2022, 09:25:34 AM »
Quote from: Bren
Is all that necessary? No. But neither are combat rules longer than a paragraph or two of text using a single six-sided die for resolution.
I agree. Social favor mechanics are no more or less important to RPGs than combat. In the end it's just a matter of taste and preferred playstyle.

Not sure if most Apocalypse World games have "strings" but Monsterhearts does. You can gain and lose strings on people through play - it's been a while, and I am mostly thinking of 1e, but strings can be lots of things - childhood friend, mentor, and yes favours. You can use strings to better manipulate others and get them to do what you want.
Yep, lots of PbtA games have this, as social altercation is usually a thing with this "family" of games. Besides Monsterhearts, Sagas of the Icelanders has "Bonds" that represent Norse society social debt, for example. There's also a Vampire-inspired one called Undying that has it (this one is interesting in that it's diceless, and social debt is an important factor in most conflicts).


Edit: here is an example of a relationship web from Undying, created by players and GM at the start of the game:  https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/500ad221e4b016a023c12965/1478789661403-15235BT96TTNKC28MGD6/image-asset.jpeg?format=1000w

It uses an hierarchy of (in decreasing order of power/prestige) Princeps > Patrician > Plebeian > Pariah, and every "arrow" represents a favor owed (major or minor). During conflicts, these factor into the tests. I don't remember the details of the rules, but it worked nicely for us in the short campaign (~4 sessions) we had.  :)
« Last Edit: January 06, 2022, 03:13:55 PM by Itachi »

Wrath of God

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Re: Which Games Have The Favor Economy Built Into The Rules?
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2022, 03:05:41 PM »
Quote
I'm not trying to be sarcastic - but "favors" are just... roleplaying right?

Depends what's the focus of game, and what sort of gameplay is rewarded.

Quote
Yep.  The great roleplaying dichotomy:  Those who want combat to be more like social interactions (fluid and amorphous), and those who want social interaction to be more like combat (rigidly defined by rules and numbers).  Both sides are wrong...

Quite opposite. All sides are right.
Even better fluid and amorphous combat, and rigid wargame social interactions <3

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With great vengeance and furious anger"


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tenbones

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Re: Which Games Have The Favor Economy Built Into The Rules?
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2022, 03:57:21 PM »
The currency helps everyone at the table keep track of who owes whom and makes it more transparent to the player what they are owed - which is something the characters in the setting will understand well, while the player may not.

Is all that necessary? No. But neither are combat rules longer than a paragraph or two of text using a single six-sided die for resolution.

No, see, I **LIKE** it when my PC's forget who they owe what. That's grist for the mill. I like it even better when they think the NPC's believe they're not owed "somehthing" for favors solicited(or not).

That pushes RP which pushes potential conflict/conspiracy which keeps the wheels moving. The non-stop negotiation of who owes who based on whatever codes of authority - Temporal or the Street - is the juice. I mean sure a PC could keep a Book of Grudges and notate all that (which would be a fun schtick), but to have it some kind of absolute currency seems silly.

"But the game is out there, and it’s either play or be played.” - Omar Little

For me the sauce is in players enforcing their will (or not) of their PC's on whatever the situation is. These are defining things that signal to the world they inhabit, who/what they're about. This is one of the most defining elements of self-agency in my game. Reducing it to a currency loses some of the flavor.

But I guess it depends where you like to play your games. I like mine up close where you smell the stink of fear.

I want to add - *I* most certainly play my NPC's with that same level of ignorance. My players can do things out of the kindness of their own heart without saying shit, but if my NPC's are of a certain mindset, they might look at those "favors" as exactly that - and act accordingly. They might even double-think it as if the PC's are trying to subtly threaten them - like "here I hooked you up. With the implication that "I can hook you down too, little bitch." and because they don't impress their actual motives on my NPC's - this leaves me to react accordingly, which all becomes notations for my NPC writeups. Which creates potential "good" or "bad" situations to emerge from those interactions.

And maybe it's because I grew up with Machiavellian motherfuckers among my family and friends. Heh.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2022, 04:03:03 PM by tenbones »

Wrath of God

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Re: Which Games Have The Favor Economy Built Into The Rules?
« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2022, 04:19:57 PM »
Quote
That pushes RP which pushes potential conflict/conspiracy which keeps the wheels moving. The non-stop negotiation of who owes who based on whatever codes of authority - Temporal or the Street - is the juice. I mean sure a PC could keep a Book of Grudges and notate all that (which would be a fun schtick), but to have it some kind of absolute currency seems silly.

Depends of setting. One I remember when Favours are ultimate currency is I think Urban Fantasy setting to either PBTA or FITD where like favours are absolute measurement and every supernatural being kept them very well notated as they bears metaphysical weight crucial for their existence. Of course while favour achieved is set in stone, there is still field of maneuvres to get what you want without being in dept, or to take someone from indepted without them paying it off,

Typical Faerie Court games.
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tenbones

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Re: Which Games Have The Favor Economy Built Into The Rules?
« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2022, 04:29:40 PM »
But are they explicit? Or just "markers" the denote "something" happened and I have a literal bag full of "favors" that I can use to force someone to do something without negotiation?

I get that PbtA is a very heavy on the abstract. It's a lot more gamey than I like for my RPG's.


Wrath of God

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Re: Which Games Have The Favor Economy Built Into The Rules?
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2022, 05:28:35 PM »
Quote
But are they explicit? Or just "markers" the denote "something" happened and I have a literal bag full of "favors" that I can use to force someone to do something without negotiation?

Explicitly linking to individuals. Though of course if you own a favour this person can sell it to someone else. So in case of this specific mechanics works both on narrative and simulation level.
Avoiding to pay debts is bad both for PC and NPC afaik.

Quote
I get that PbtA is a very heavy on the abstract. It's a lot more gamey than I like for my RPG's.

Is it gamey? Dunno for me D&D is gamey game, with 4E being distilled gamey-ness. Narrative abstracts of new school... are well their own thing. Though in many cases especially in FiTD when moved are basically short skill list, I'd say it's not that different from rule-light trad games.
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With great vengeance and furious anger"


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Itachi

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Re: Which Games Have The Favor Economy Built Into The Rules?
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2022, 09:14:17 PM »
But are they explicit? Or just "markers" the denote "something" happened and I have a literal bag full of "favors" that I can use to force someone to do something without negotiation?
It depends on the game. It's usually a currency one gains under specific circumstances and can use to gain leverage against the recipient during social interactions. The Wikipedia article on Monsterhearts has a paragraph about its "Strings":

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsterhearts

"Strings against specific characters are gained through moves, and through turning people on - and may be spent either for a bonus to a dice roll after rolling, to inflict a condition on the target, or to offer them an XP to do something the offering player suggests."
« Last Edit: January 07, 2022, 08:30:46 AM by Itachi »