Quote from: Greentongue on January 23, 2022, 02:11:54 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on January 22, 2022, 05:44:12 PM
Holy freaking crap, people! Gold and strength are concrete measurable things. Favor is a completely subjective ephemeral quantity that people in real life often just forget about after all the crap you've done for them, while money is MONEY and always gets accepted at the store. Even to the degree that you might argue that monetary value is subjective, it is still based around a scarce, measurable and quantifiable resource, which Favor isn't. How are these things even close enough to 1 on 1 analogous to be comparable?

So credit and reputation have no perceived value and only "gold" matters?

You may find this interesting:
https://ilr.law.uiowa.edu/print/volume-100-issue-6/pre-modern-credit-networks-and-the-limits-of-reputation/

I believe "Favor" can be considered a stand in for credit and reputation on a personal level.

1) It doesn't say that anywhere in my post, but OK.

2) I only read about halfway through, but what I read seems to support my point more than yours. The author specifically discards reputation as a major factor early in the article (didn't get to the part where they go into details), explicitly said credits where a precursor to paper money at one point (as in Dollar bills) and mentioned they used to weight owe coins, cuz some people made counterfeit coins that weighted less, which were gold or silver. All of that points to credit being based around quantifiable things, like metal and amount of coins owed, not up in the air "Favor" or someone's reputation.

Quote from: Bren on January 24, 2022, 06:50:15 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on January 23, 2022, 07:36:48 AM

Quote from: Bren on January 23, 2022, 02:21:42 AM
For those who are all roleplay all the time, let's turn this conversation around.  Do you really roleplay out every interaction in real time? Even the dull ones? Or are you abstracting or ignoring interactions that you think may not be interesting enough?

I actually used to RP the dull ones back in the day. It was a drag so I tend to skip them now. Though, I wouldn't say I'm "all role-play", but I can see the case for how certain mechanics can interfere with RP or force certain outcomes. In the Favor example given earlier in this thread, for example, certain uses of favor can force a player to tell if they're lying, which has a direct effect on the direction the interaction can take.

Even social skills and OD&D CHA-based Reaction Rolls do this for the most part. Though, I've grown accustomed to accepting them because I think that social ability is definitely a factor in interaction in real life, so I'm more inclined to accept the idea that social skills and/or charisma should affect interaction. But even then I've seen them get in the way, or used in lieu of actual RP.

Oh yeah, that. Using a Favor to tell when someone is lying isn't something I would do or could do in the systems I run or play. That use sounded like it was coming from a very different system (though I don't recall which system it was). So I kind of just mentally skimmed on past it.

One thing that's clear from this thread is that there is no universal way that mechanics that get called 'Favor' operate. Different systems have different mechanics for Favor that do different things. There may be some overlap, but there may be great differences.

TBH, I wouldn't be entirely be opposed to a Favor currency you could spend to boost your social rolls. Though, I could just as easily give PCs a one time bonus next time they deal with the NPC, or simply RP the NPC as friendly from the onset and leave it at that.

Quote from: Opaopajr on January 25, 2022, 12:55:30 PM
I'm not gonna sift, but I guess we can start compiling systems that have some form of it by now after all these posts.

I got as a start L5R and WW WoD (Storyteller), e.g. Vampire prestation.

What else?

FFG's Edge of the Empire Star Wars RPG has this as a function of Obligation. PCs can take on Obligation (of various types) to gain favors, and NPCs can reduce your Obligation (of various types) as payment/reward for favors you do for them.

Quote from: VisionStorm on January 25, 2022, 01:09:43 PM
1) ...

2) I only read about halfway through, but what I read seems to support my point more than yours. The author specifically discards reputation as a major factor early in the article (didn't get to the part where they go into details), explicitly said credits where a precursor to paper money at one point (as in Dollar bills) and mentioned they used to weight owe coins, cuz some people made counterfeit coins that weighted less, which were gold or silver. All of that points to credit being based around quantifiable things, like metal and amount of coins owed, not up in the air "Favor" or someone's reputation.

To put it another way. You see the people with their "Will work for food" signs. You need work done and so take them up on their offer however, they haven't eaten in a while and want to eat BEFORE doing any work.
How do you decide to give them food ahead or not? What would make them do the work after.

Another,
The US currency is backed by "The full faith in the government." Why is that needed if "Dollars bills" are the same as gold or silver? Would you take Bitcoin? It represents no gold or silver. 

My long winded point is that we give things value. Even insubstantial things and we honor these "transactions".
Why is "doing something for you" not assumed to have an exchangeable value? Is it only because it is named "Favor" and implies the debt can be ignored?

Quote from: Greentongue on January 25, 2022, 02:10:55 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on January 25, 2022, 01:09:43 PM
1) ...

2) I only read about halfway through, but what I read seems to support my point more than yours. The author specifically discards reputation as a major factor early in the article (didn't get to the part where they go into details), explicitly said credits where a precursor to paper money at one point (as in Dollar bills) and mentioned they used to weight owe coins, cuz some people made counterfeit coins that weighted less, which were gold or silver. All of that points to credit being based around quantifiable things, like metal and amount of coins owed, not up in the air "Favor" or someone's reputation.

To put it another way. You see the people with their "Will work for food" signs. You need work done and so take them up on their offer however, they haven't eaten in a while and want to eat BEFORE doing any work.
How do you decide to give them food ahead or not? What would make them do the work after.

Another,
The US currency is backed by "The full faith in the government." Why is that needed if "Dollars bills" are the same as gold or silver? Would you take Bitcoin? It represents no gold or silver. 

My long winded point is that we give things value. Even insubstantial things and we honor these "transactions".
Why is "doing something for you" not assumed to have an exchangeable value? Is it only because it is named "Favor" and implies the debt can be ignored?

But this reduces ones capacity for actual agency down to a value that exists *outside* the actual game. There is a big difference between my agency as a player not being able to purchase a Healing potion that costs 100gp, and I only have 23gp in my pouch, and Jabba the Hutt having "3" Favor with me.

Depending on the mechanics that can literally mean "On a scale of 1-to-10 his 'general' disposition to you" which I could be fine with. Or it could mean "At a Rating of 3, this mean this PC/NPC WILL do X for you" free of context.

I'm a very confident GM, and I track interactions with my PC's beyond their direct contacts with my NPCs - I'm always considering what my NPC's have heard, the way they heard it, their motivations and interests that might make them predisposed/antagonistic towards the PC's etc. Sure I can accept that there might mechanics that affect that disposition - but that's why I'm here. Favor mechanics have a ton of implication, that I rarely find as useful as just "roleplaying".

Gold is a literal transactional currency where value is generally agreed upon. But even then this isn't always so, try having your PC's trade gold to a bunch of savages that have zero need for it, or go to Krynnspace where they try to pay you in Steelpieces (hee hee).

Favors are a subjective "currency" that are dependent on the perspectives of the participants. Without knowing what the game conceits for "Favor mechanics" are - this becomes a shifting value on another axis. The GAME might demand these mechanics for its own internal reasons. But the function of a transactional currency in-game isn't the same thing.

Do I *need* a Favor denomination to know if Farmer Giles will give me a place to stay in his barn for the night? Or could I just roleplay it? I could just handwave it. I could make it a possible meaningful roleplaying hook (this time).

If the idea that no one wants to say here is that "Favor Mechanics" is simply a "fun" shorthand way of not doing things that are intentionally not meant to be roleplayed with - then that is the answer.

Let's not muddy the waters and pretend it's "literally" the same thing as monetary currency. They could interact (My PC could owe you Money as part of some Favor Mechanic dynamic - but that's literally just some justification for a Favor rating), but they're not the same. And if you want to be reductionist and say - "Well yes, Tenbones, you can just trade in favors instead of gold." Then I would simply say - yeah that's called roleplaying your bartering. Which brings us back to square one - where I'm asking what is the value of a Favor Mechanic over just roleplaying?

And yes, this could be entirely subjective - just like my assertions are subjective, but let's not pretend I believe these things are equal, the difference I'm open to being wrong if presented with something novel, but that's WHY I'm asking the question.

To me, "At a Rating of 3, this mean this PC/NPC WILL do X for you" free of context" goes beyond what I would envision as a "Favor".
I can however see where there could be games that boil down the back and forth negotiations to a roll if that is not the primary focus of the game.

But then I can also see people living near Canada accepting Canadian currency in place of US currency in some cases.
They are both "backed by the full faith" and as such are assumed to have the same value as "gold" for purchases.
We can really go into the weeds discussing why the "special paper" can be exchanged for things they want. 

Quote from: Greentongue on January 26, 2022, 12:35:45 PM
To me, "At a Rating of 3, this mean this PC/NPC WILL do X for you" free of context" goes beyond what I would envision as a "Favor".
I can however see where there could be games that boil down the back and forth negotiations to a roll if that is not the primary focus of the game.

I can too. But since no one is discussing these actual mechanics in play as a direct example to my question (How are these things better than just roleplaying?) it makes for a very weird discussion because people get "defensive" about it. I fully acknowledge there might be a good place for such mechanics - Savage Worlds does stuff like this all time, and most people here know I'm a big Savage Worlds advocate, but they have TONS of mini-systems that operate in lieu of their core mechanics or even roleplaying. Some I use, some I don't - for the exact reasons I'm ostensibly trying to discuss here (with little success apparently).

Quote from: Greentongue on January 26, 2022, 12:35:45 PMBut then I can also see people living near Canada accepting Canadian currency in place of US currency in some cases.
They are both "backed by the full faith" and as such are assumed to have the same value as "gold" for purchases.
We can really go into the weeds discussing why the "special paper" can be exchanged for things they want.

I'll be honest with you - I find this a bit disingenuous. You're not wrong, of course. But IN GAME I have yet to see anyone in many decades of GMing I've been doing, where they questioned the value of a gold-piece.

When I pay for something in game or in real life - regardless if it's based on faith in the value (and I'm more than willing to discuss the history of economics and money, it's a fun topic that again probably has more use in another thread - especially for the purposes of talking about alternate currencies and economic models for gaming!) of gold or magical paper - it's ostensibly taken as a set value. There IS ALWAYS the potential for haggling on an object's value - but that is roleplaying. That COULD be "a Skill check" - but the transaction medium is never haggled about unless its a roleplaying requirement.

Case in point - How many Canadians actually haggle with shop-owners about taking Canadian script over American dollars while in America? Probably not many. Is this the hill you want to die on to prove a point? In either case at best it's a Skill check or it's roleplaying. It's not a Favor, unless you have a discrete relationship with someone that may/may not accept Canadian Funny Money over American Green Gold Magic Paper.

A Favor is a term with a distinct connotation of an interpersonal relationship between individuals. You *could* boil it down to a transactional  state. Yes. But is it better than all the possibilities that could come from simply roleplaying? Call it "Favor Mechanics" call it Blood Money Mechanics - whatever. My insistent question is by doing so you are leaving, potentially, a lot of good gaming content on the floor. And it can be handled more simply by roleplaying if the intention is to make it matter.

If yes-  what do those mechanics look like?

Another game with Favor mechanics I just remembered: Agon. In it each character has various oaths, to gods, other PCs, etc. that they should pay when asked or incur penalties. As the game is competitive in nature - each PC is a Greek hero vying for personal glory - the game becomes a web of potential conflicts as each PC must weight their debts or be caught in a situation where it's used against them. For example, a PC can lend their Shield ability die to help with his colleague roll to defend, and, if the later accepts, he's considered indebted to the former. Which could lead to a situation where the indebted PC can see himself forced to help the other guy to accrue glory, or even risk his life for him.

BTW, I think in PvP scenarios is where the concept shines the most.