This is mentioned as a gritty system, and in reading it, I agree.  I think the books for the game do a fantastic job of communicating the "winding down" feeling of the world.  The career system to me seemed a bit wonky in some ways, but probably the biggest reason I have never tried to run a game is it seems combat is a whole bunch of swing and a miss.   I was wondering if anyone could point out how a character with say a 40% WS can hedge their bets in an encounter.   I also looked through 4e, and it did not seem worth buying in the sense there were no huge improvements I could see to the system in paging through the book.  If there were, I would also be glad to hear them.   

     Anyone here participate in any longer campaigns using the system and anything that popped up in that time?

Read thru the combat rules more carefully.  There are several actions you can take that will raise your chance to hit by 10 or 20%.  And all it takes is one lucky hit to kill anyone.  I've only run a couple of short campaigns of wfrp (both 1e and 2e) but combat in both is short and brutal. 

Quote from: Hakdov on July 09, 2021, 08:40:21 PM
Read thru the combat rules more carefully.  There are several actions you can take that will raise your chance to hit by 10 or 20%.  And all it takes is one lucky hit to kill anyone.  I've only run a couple of short campaigns of wfrp (both 1e and 2e) but combat in both is short and brutal.

  I have read them, what I was asking was a bit more discussion as to how groups of characters pull off these things in real time.   I am also familiar with games like Mythras and GURPS where the same effect exists (one shot ends a fight) but it is also assumed even for a beginner, the competency level is a good deal higher.  Even boosted by 20 percent, 55 percent is not a great number to bet your life on.  I am also curious as to how all the options and opportunities play out in a combat (for example for more of a veteran character with a shield and ability to parry as well as a decent WS) for more experienced parties as well. 

   I have played SW for example and have a myriad of ways that I can over come high parry or toughness, largely because after playing I sought these things out.   Having only read, but not played WHFRP I have not the practical knowledge to "ask the proper questions" in a sense of looking up the answers for myself.

Greetings!

Slaves to Darkness

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=j7AaLIfM&id=A9CB4050443BB06E3CE5804B622F973101B472B0&thid=OIP.j7AaLIfMv7vGMKa54MqVoAAAAA&mediaurl=https%3a%2f%2fimages-na.ssl-images-amazon.com%2fimages%2fI%2f51fQorZY1aL._SY344_BO1%2c204%2c203%2c200_.jpg&cdnurl=https%3a%2f%2fth.bing.com%2fth%2fid%2fR.8fb01a2c87ccbfbbc630a6b9e0ca95a0%3frik%3dsHK0ATGXL2JLgA%26pid%3dImgRaw&exph=346&expw=260&q=slaves+to+darkness+book&simid=608016225041150678&ck=90B8D901A296F7865917D918B9C88031&selectedIndex=0&FORM=IRPRST&ajaxhist=0&ajaxserp=0

The Lost and the Damned

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=v5OrrKpg&id=8F86D2B281EE2F9CB3A42FC36FEB15CC424F7936&thid=OIP.v5OrrKpgQqAKjpCJoW0wzwHaD4&mediaurl=https%3A%2F%2Fi.gr-assets.com%2Fimages%2FS%2Fcompressed.photo.goodreads.com%2Fbooks%2F1359927130i%2F17317753._UY630_SR1200%2C630_.jpg&cdnurl=https%3A%2F%2Fth.bing.com%2Fth%2Fid%2FR.bf93abacaa6042a00a8e9089a16d30cf%3Frik%3DNnlPQswV62%252fDLw%26pid%3DImgRaw&exph=630&expw=1200&q=the+lost+and+the+damned+book&simid=607998065919068208&ck=5BB07011CD853D4BA72A7D10CCD2B53E&selectedindex=46&form=IRPRST&ajaxhist=0&ajaxserp=0&vt=0&sim=11

These two tomes of ancient, blasphemous knowledge and heresy will certainly endanger both your mind and soul with the lore and artistic imagery contained within their blood-stained pages. They both have sanity-blasting imagery that will serve to inspire you in your research for eldritch secrets and dark knowledge and which assuredly have no equals in all of the land.

I have my original copies that I acquired back in the ancient days, and I would not sell them for $500 dollars each. I would probably not even part with them for $1,000 dollars each, for their text, imagery, art, and inspiration are landmark achievements that are to my mind irreplaceable. Having them both will forever change how you look at DMing, world-building, and throwing your players into the blasted wastes to suffer endless damnation.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: oggsmash on July 10, 2021, 04:00:45 AM

Quote from: Hakdov on July 09, 2021, 08:40:21 PM
Read thru the combat rules more carefully.  There are several actions you can take that will raise your chance to hit by 10 or 20%.  And all it takes is one lucky hit to kill anyone.  I've only run a couple of short campaigns of wfrp (both 1e and 2e) but combat in both is short and brutal.

  I have read them, what I was asking was a bit more discussion as to how groups of characters pull off these things in real time.   I am also familiar with games like Mythras and GURPS where the same effect exists (one shot ends a fight) but it is also assumed even for a beginner, the competency level is a good deal higher.  Even boosted by 20 percent, 55 percent is not a great number to bet your life on.  I am also curious as to how all the options and opportunities play out in a combat (for example for more of a veteran character with a shield and ability to parry as well as a decent WS) for more experienced parties as well. 

   I have played SW for example and have a myriad of ways that I can over come high parry or toughness, largely because after playing I sought these things out.   Having only read, but not played WHFRP I have not the practical knowledge to "ask the proper questions" in a sense of looking up the answers for myself.

4e makes shields much more effective, especially with ranks in the Shieldsman talent.

As for 55% not being a great number to bet your life on, consider most police shootings and how few rounds actually hit. I haven't looked to see if similar studies were done for close combat, but I'd imagine there are many misses or ineffective blows (treat as miss) too.

The "whiff factor" is a known issue in WFRP 2e. Though it's verboten to discuss here, there is an award-winning clone of WFRP 2e that specifically addresses that issue, mathematically. There is also an unofficial, fan-made expansion that will allow you to port the 2e clone in question to the Old World setting more easily. Regardless of how anyone feels about the clone, or the people involved, it does what you are looking for. And the fan-made WFRP expansion is perfect for melding the two. Here is a link to the WFRP fan site that has the conversion rules for the WFRP 2e clone:

https://www.kalevalahammer.com/p/blog-page_10.html

Quote from: Tubesock Army on July 10, 2021, 01:32:05 PM
The "whiff factor" is a known issue in WFRP 2e. Though it's verboten to discuss here, there is an award-winning clone of WFRP 2e that specifically addresses that issue, mathematically. There is also an unofficial, fan-made expansion that will allow you to port the 2e clone in question to the Old World setting more easily. Regardless of how anyone feels about the clone, or the people involved, it does what you are looking for. And the fan-made WFRP expansion is perfect for melding the two. Here is a link to the WFRP fan site that has the conversion rules for the WFRP 2e clone:

https://www.kalevalahammer.com/p/blog-page_10.html

No game is truly verboten here. Talk about Zwei (the game itself) and nobody should get in a tizzy. Just don't go down the path of discussing the author and you should be fine.

Quote from: SHARK on July 10, 2021, 07:00:57 AM
Greetings!

Slaves to Darkness

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=j7AaLIfM&id=A9CB4050443BB06E3CE5804B622F973101B472B0&thid=OIP.j7AaLIfMv7vGMKa54MqVoAAAAA&mediaurl=https%3a%2f%2fimages-na.ssl-images-amazon.com%2fimages%2fI%2f51fQorZY1aL._SY344_BO1%2c204%2c203%2c200_.jpg&cdnurl=https%3a%2f%2fth.bing.com%2fth%2fid%2fR.8fb01a2c87ccbfbbc630a6b9e0ca95a0%3frik%3dsHK0ATGXL2JLgA%26pid%3dImgRaw&exph=346&expw=260&q=slaves+to+darkness+book&simid=608016225041150678&ck=90B8D901A296F7865917D918B9C88031&selectedIndex=0&FORM=IRPRST&ajaxhist=0&ajaxserp=0

The Lost and the Damned

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=v5OrrKpg&id=8F86D2B281EE2F9CB3A42FC36FEB15CC424F7936&thid=OIP.v5OrrKpgQqAKjpCJoW0wzwHaD4&mediaurl=https%3A%2F%2Fi.gr-assets.com%2Fimages%2FS%2Fcompressed.photo.goodreads.com%2Fbooks%2F1359927130i%2F17317753._UY630_SR1200%2C630_.jpg&cdnurl=https%3A%2F%2Fth.bing.com%2Fth%2Fid%2FR.bf93abacaa6042a00a8e9089a16d30cf%3Frik%3DNnlPQswV62%252fDLw%26pid%3DImgRaw&exph=630&expw=1200&q=the+lost+and+the+damned+book&simid=607998065919068208&ck=5BB07011CD853D4BA72A7D10CCD2B53E&selectedindex=46&form=IRPRST&ajaxhist=0&ajaxserp=0&vt=0&sim=11

These two tomes of ancient, blasphemous knowledge and heresy will certainly endanger both your mind and soul with the lore and artistic imagery contained within their blood-stained pages. They both have sanity-blasting imagery that will serve to inspire you in your research for eldritch secrets and dark knowledge and which assuredly have no equals in all of the land.

I have my original copies that I acquired back in the ancient days, and I would not sell them for $500 dollars each. I would probably not even part with them for $1,000 dollars each, for their text, imagery, art, and inspiration are landmark achievements that are to my mind irreplaceable. Having them both will forever change how you look at DMing, world-building, and throwing your players into the blasted wastes to suffer endless damnation.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Absolute 1000% agreement. These two books absolutely blew my mind when I picked them up off the shelf. Wouldn't give them up for anything.

Quote from: MKoth on July 11, 2021, 03:11:33 PM

Quote from: SHARK on July 10, 2021, 07:00:57 AM
Greetings!

Slaves to Darkness

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=j7AaLIfM&id=A9CB4050443BB06E3CE5804B622F973101B472B0&thid=OIP.j7AaLIfMv7vGMKa54MqVoAAAAA&mediaurl=https%3a%2f%2fimages-na.ssl-images-amazon.com%2fimages%2fI%2f51fQorZY1aL._SY344_BO1%2c204%2c203%2c200_.jpg&cdnurl=https%3a%2f%2fth.bing.com%2fth%2fid%2fR.8fb01a2c87ccbfbbc630a6b9e0ca95a0%3frik%3dsHK0ATGXL2JLgA%26pid%3dImgRaw&exph=346&expw=260&q=slaves+to+darkness+book&simid=608016225041150678&ck=90B8D901A296F7865917D918B9C88031&selectedIndex=0&FORM=IRPRST&ajaxhist=0&ajaxserp=0

The Lost and the Damned

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=v5OrrKpg&id=8F86D2B281EE2F9CB3A42FC36FEB15CC424F7936&thid=OIP.v5OrrKpgQqAKjpCJoW0wzwHaD4&mediaurl=https%3A%2F%2Fi.gr-assets.com%2Fimages%2FS%2Fcompressed.photo.goodreads.com%2Fbooks%2F1359927130i%2F17317753._UY630_SR1200%2C630_.jpg&cdnurl=https%3A%2F%2Fth.bing.com%2Fth%2Fid%2FR.bf93abacaa6042a00a8e9089a16d30cf%3Frik%3DNnlPQswV62%252fDLw%26pid%3DImgRaw&exph=630&expw=1200&q=the+lost+and+the+damned+book&simid=607998065919068208&ck=5BB07011CD853D4BA72A7D10CCD2B53E&selectedindex=46&form=IRPRST&ajaxhist=0&ajaxserp=0&vt=0&sim=11

These two tomes of ancient, blasphemous knowledge and heresy will certainly endanger both your mind and soul with the lore and artistic imagery contained within their blood-stained pages. They both have sanity-blasting imagery that will serve to inspire you in your research for eldritch secrets and dark knowledge and which assuredly have no equals in all of the land.

I have my original copies that I acquired back in the ancient days, and I would not sell them for $500 dollars each. I would probably not even part with them for $1,000 dollars each, for their text, imagery, art, and inspiration are landmark achievements that are to my mind irreplaceable. Having them both will forever change how you look at DMing, world-building, and throwing your players into the blasted wastes to suffer endless damnation.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Absolute 1000% agreement. These two books absolutely blew my mind when I picked them up off the shelf. Wouldn't give them up for anything.

Greetings!

Hi there, MKoth! Thanks! Yes, these two books are absolutely amazing. Even in the 30+ years it has been since they were first brought forth into the light of day, nothing has come near to their equal. Artists come and go by the truckload, and none of them have captured the same raw energy, ferocity, and malevolent genius of the art depicted in Slaves to Darkness and The Lost and the Damned. I also find it interesting that most of the artwork in these tomes are black & white line drawings--with many being, somehow at first glance, not especially articulate, technical, or complete--and yet, they somehow manage to burst into your consciousness with a hard, enduring memory of terror and chomping menace that endures, even after the passing of many years. Furthermore, not only is the artwork mind-searing in inspiration, but the text, as well, features descriptions, discussion, and insights into a dark and savage world of unparalleled menace.

I still use both of these books, as pillars of inspiration, in my campaigns today. I cannot recommend them highly enough. They are essential tools for any DM, using any kind of medieval or ancient world. In truth, however, even advanced science-fiction game campaigns can also use these books to profound effect--perhaps especially so!;D Much of the eldritch weaponry and strange technology described in the books are so delicious and inspiring! Of course, such technology has been known to forever traumatize players, especially those believing themselves to be unstoppable "superheroes". The books definitely provide a DM with a wildly diabolical and malevolent buffet-like toolkit in which to crush the dreams and precious assumptions of smug superheroes.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 10, 2021, 08:08:49 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on July 10, 2021, 04:00:45 AM

Quote from: Hakdov on July 09, 2021, 08:40:21 PM
Read thru the combat rules more carefully.  There are several actions you can take that will raise your chance to hit by 10 or 20%.  And all it takes is one lucky hit to kill anyone.  I've only run a couple of short campaigns of wfrp (both 1e and 2e) but combat in both is short and brutal.

  I have read them, what I was asking was a bit more discussion as to how groups of characters pull off these things in real time.   I am also familiar with games like Mythras and GURPS where the same effect exists (one shot ends a fight) but it is also assumed even for a beginner, the competency level is a good deal higher.  Even boosted by 20 percent, 55 percent is not a great number to bet your life on.  I am also curious as to how all the options and opportunities play out in a combat (for example for more of a veteran character with a shield and ability to parry as well as a decent WS) for more experienced parties as well. 

   I have played SW for example and have a myriad of ways that I can over come high parry or toughness, largely because after playing I sought these things out.   Having only read, but not played WHFRP I have not the practical knowledge to "ask the proper questions" in a sense of looking up the answers for myself.

4e makes shields much more effective, especially with ranks in the Shieldsman talent.

As for 55% not being a great number to bet your life on, consider most police shootings and how few rounds actually hit. I haven't looked to see if similar studies were done for close combat, but I'd imagine there are many misses or ineffective blows (treat as miss) too.

  Police are on average in zero shootings their entire careers.  WHFRP adventurers are going to be in a lot of fights.   If we are talking about the scribe's chance to hit (who in many cases has as much practical combat training as most cops) I get it.  But a soldier?  that 55 percent (and given it takes giving up any defenses to get there) seems low, though I understand it assumes a level of defense present from the target.  I will give it a try and see how it goes, since it looks as if characters can advance it looks like they can become quite competent during that 2nd career.   I guess it is a case of knowing when to run. 

    The buffing of shields look promising however, as before they seem to be very meh (at least on paper).  I am used to GURPS and SW (and even reading mythras) where they are all extremely effective.   To that end, is it worth picking up the 4e core rules?  I have no idea what was changed for the edition, and flipping through the book not much stood out to me (other than what looked like a step down in art), but that was a fairly brief inspection.

Greetings!

Ogg, I played and DM'd WFRP for years. I went through all of the officially published adventures--The Oldenhaller Contract, Death on the Reik, Middenheim, Power Behind the Throne, Empire in Flames, Something Rotten in Kislev, The lich castle, Drakenfels, the Doomstones, half a dozen adventures from White Dwarf Magazine, and probably a few I'm forgetting. It typically takes 1-3 game sessions to reach your 2nd Career. Additional careers soon follow. A character in their third career can have a 65%-80% WS or BS. The game is typically brutal and often lethal, but it doesn't take long before player characters are quite formidable.

In my campaigns, I usually ran one session per week, that lasted 8 to 10 hours. After four sessions, or a month of playing, the players were typically gaining a career every session, thus, after a month of play, they were usually on their fourth career, depending on how many skills and advances they had to purchase and so on.

The idea that a player character is going to be staying at a 25 or 45% WS or BS for long just isn't something you typically have to worry about, my friend. As soon as they get above say, 65%, they may also have a +10% Weapon, so it adds up quickly. Toss in a spell boost on boss fights, and a warrior character can easily be looking at an 85% WS, with two or three attacks per round. Shit is gonna be dying fast, I can tell you.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: oggsmash on July 09, 2021, 04:26:21 PMI was wondering if anyone could point out how a character with say a 40% WS can hedge their bets in an encounter. 

Remember the AD&D1e PHB advice: "Avoid unnecessary encounters."

That, and sneak and ambush and lie and cheat and steal and bribe and intimidate and parley.

It's a feature, not a bug, that your characters are very likely to be useless in their first career in WFRP. A soldier will be less useless (in fighting) but this is still someone who is fundamentally inexperienced. Conceptually it sounds fun (a group of the completely inexperienced, caught up in things greater than they can begin to fathom) but in practice it can be frustrating.

The completely random character generation of WFRP1 can help with this. Very possible to get an extremely effective character, but it's also very possible to get someone who barely survived adolescence.

For me, when I've tried to run the game, the system falls flat if the players aren't invested into the setting.

All that being said--WFRP3 is where it's at. The game unfortunately never saw its potential fulfilled. 

Quote from: oggsmash on July 12, 2021, 01:39:16 AM
WHFRP adventurers are going to be in a lot of fights. 

This does not match my experiences with WFRP. Myself and the others I played with did everything we could to avoid fighting (because it could easily lead to permanent maiming or death).

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 12, 2021, 08:52:34 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on July 12, 2021, 01:39:16 AM
WHFRP adventurers are going to be in a lot of fights. 

This does not match my experiences with WFRP. Myself and the others I played with did everything we could to avoid fighting (because it could easily lead to permanent maiming or death).

  I was comparing them to modern cops regarding deadly circumstances, not D&D or similar games' adventures.    But with the rules as they were written, I can see how they might look to avoid fights as much as possible.  My players will have a bury a comrade or two or get a peg leg to learn that lesson I think.