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Author Topic: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?  (Read 2818 times)

Chris24601

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Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2021, 02:36:54 PM »
I’ve tried damnably near every realm/domain management system out there and have honestly come to the conclusion that not one of them beats a GM with a list of domain-related events (rolled randomly or selected) and a system that includes pricing for hirelings, henchmen, mercenaries and structures.

Everything else tries to add things like types of domain actions and abstracted resources, but half the fun from my experience is having to roleplay through the problems with whatever actual resources you have; not turning to a mini-game that only partially interfaces with the main rules and limits how and in what fashion the PCs are allowed to solve the problem.

For example; how many systems have sort of taxation rules with set brackets (low, medium and high typically) that abstract it across the population?

But actual PCs might decide to selectively tax, go on a dungeon delve, confiscate property from certain individuals (basically what happened with the Knights Templar), auction off some of their own assets, enfief some of their territory with yearly monetary fees replacing military service, or overtax their population by demanding more than the people can afford and get a revolt on their hands.

Basically, the more codified the domain rules become the more player-driven creative solutions that tend to lead to adventures get curtails because no rule set can cover every bit of insanity the players can conceive of.

Greentongue

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Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2021, 07:32:56 PM »
What it certainly does in my mind is give real value to things.
How much effect does a cattle raid actually have to a manor and the people living their?
Will there be ripples throughout based on who owned which cows and that the raid happened at all?

What is a reasonable reward for making the forest safe again?

Is this actually the beginning of "The Hero's Story"?
« Last Edit: April 11, 2021, 08:48:55 PM by Greentongue »

estar

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Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2021, 10:32:56 PM »
Do you detail the neighboring "manors" and if so, how many of them? Is 6 a good number? As in each hex side direction.

Are the detailed areas other manors or "Points of Interest"?

I read a couple of books on historical settlement patterns. If land use is centered along irrigation or waters then you get rows strips to maximize who has access to the water. If land use is more spread out it becomes more a triangular web broken up by terrain here and there. Not unlike what you would get with following a hexagon grid. Just keep in mind the transport advantage using water versus is an order of magnitude better (10 to 1).


Full Image
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A post on mapping farms versus Manors/estates



https://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2010/02/mapping-manors-vs-farms.html
« Last Edit: April 11, 2021, 10:34:49 PM by estar »

Greentongue

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Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2021, 07:09:11 AM »
Very interesting!
Thanks for the links as well.  As was brought up in the comments, war has an effect on the distribution of people.
While you might think that having a fortified place would be a good thing, it takes far less time to destroy one than to build one.

People still have to eat so killing "the sheep" is not wise unless you are an external conqueror and look to replace or remove food production from an area.   

Reckall

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Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2021, 10:37:46 AM »
(Waves)

Sorry if I come late, but wouldn't "Forgotten Realms: Power of Faerun" be of use?

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Power_of_Faer%C3%BBn

What about "Birthright"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthright_(campaign_setting)
For every idiot who denounces Ayn Rand as "intellectualism" there is an excellent DM who creates a "Bioshock" adventure.

Opaopajr

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Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
« Reply #35 on: April 12, 2021, 11:36:56 AM »
I will echo Chris' exhortation to focus on the playable adventure aspect than the abstractions. The world has several video games that do this 4X gaming far better than any human can process in a timely manner, with varying degrees of quality. The real stand out function of TTRPGs is getting the PCs to intimately place their imprint on the world, hence focus on the intimacy TTRPGs can provide versus abstract juggling a CPU can provide.

In practice it is better to think of those Domain Management abstract mechanics as NPC Automated Programs to juggle campaign input. The challenge is you also have to provide a running script for your NPCs, and that includes a General Events Calendar (weather, acts of god/s, surprise hordes from off the map, etc.). That is the step most forget -- the input -- as GMs think they can fudge it on the fly. No, moments for improv *will occur* naturally in TTRPGs, but those abstract Domain Management mechanics need input to work with so as to support you when you *have to* improvise.

If you can accomplish these NPC scripts with defined motivations, goals, and attitude responses beforehand, fantastic. If you habitually wait until the last minute for inputs, flirting with GM burnout disaster. If you focus only on NPC scripts interacting with domain programs, why play a slow processor 4X game? Play up to TTRPGs' strengths and keep the bookkeeping tools mostly GM-Facing; the Player-Facing Domain Tools are to bypass elements that are uninteresting to both sides of the screen. To continuously bypass the roleplaying aspect means your players should really play a different game.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2021, 11:38:34 AM by Opaopajr »
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You know, people keep comparing non-TSR D&D to deck-building in Magic: the Gathering. But maybe it's more like Katamari Damacy. You keep sticking shit on your characters until they are big enough to be a star.
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estar

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Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2021, 12:46:10 PM »
What most players care about is how much gold they earn, what resources they have, and how many folks they command. Everything else is a detail to get those numbers. And interest in those details vary while in pursuit of their goal of trashing the setting.


Greentongue

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Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
« Reply #37 on: April 12, 2021, 02:40:34 PM »
What most players care about is how much gold they earn, what resources they have, and how many folks they command. Everything else is a detail to get those numbers. And interest in those details vary while in pursuit of their goal of trashing the setting.
I suspect Other Lords interfering with their plans of world domination can be made interesting.
Trying not to just handwave opposition but have a structure in place seems like it could be useful.

Not directly playing against the GM but against Other Lords that are in the same framework.

amacris

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Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
« Reply #38 on: April 12, 2021, 05:50:24 PM »
I like to have a setting that functions on its own with or without the players interacting. So when they do, I know the ramifications.
Also, as a natural source of complications they can engage with.

I've used "An Echo Resounding" before as a system to do this and would like to discuss other options and how people made them work.

Where do you find people that are interested in that sort of thing and have experiences to share?

ACKS has already been recommended to you but as the game's designer I figured I would chime in. Based on what you've said in this thread, I would recommend to you this product:
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/194008/Axioms-Issue-3

Axioms Issue 3 is
For kingdom/realm level play it has these articles:

1) Strongholds and Domains: A revised approach to domains for faster, easier play. This is a complete re-tooling of the domain rules in the ACKS Core Rules. The revised rules are more elegant and more robust, while also less complex.

2) Separating Land and Lordship: Rules for domains of governors and landowners. By default, ACKS assumes that domains are ruled by kings/lords who both own and govern. This article allows you to have separate land owners and governors.

3) Senatus Consultum Ultimum: Rules for parliaments and senates. By default, ACKS assumes that domains are ruled by individual lords. This article allows you to set up a senate that the ruler has to consult in order to govern. It has rules for Senatorial intrigue with factions, diplomacy, bribery, etc. The senate rules tie into the rules for the thief endgame (hijinks) so your thieves' guild can slander, bribe, and coerce senators, etc.

4) Wandering into War: A system of domain encounters to keep rulers on their guard. This article lets you randomly determine when, where, and how a domain is attacked by enemies. It takes into account the domain's population density, terrain type, and position relative to other friendly domains.

For manorial- and local-play, the Axioms magazine includes:
5) Of Coins and Commerce: Comments and context on the economy of the Adventurer Conqueror King System. This explains the economic basis for the game, including things like "how much coin is circulating," "what rate of profit could I get from an investment," and so on.

6) The Economics of Peasant Families: What Does life hold for those who till the land? This is ACKS's equivalent to Harn Manor. It breaks down the game's economics at the level of the single farm.

7) Flocks and Herds and Silver and Gold: Calculating the returns from livestock in ACKS. This allows you to simulate pastoralists and herders at a nitty-gritty level.

If you buy just one product for ACKS, buy this one. It'll be the future basis of ACKS Second Edition if I ever write one.


amacris

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Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
« Reply #39 on: April 12, 2021, 05:55:04 PM »
Everything else tries to add things like types of domain actions and abstracted resources, but half the fun from my experience is having to roleplay through the problems with whatever actual resources you have; not turning to a mini-game that only partially interfaces with the main rules and limits how and in what fashion the PCs are allowed to solve the problem.

For example; how many systems have sort of taxation rules with set brackets (low, medium and high typically) that abstract it across the population?

But actual PCs might decide to selectively tax, go on a dungeon delve, confiscate property from certain individuals (basically what happened with the Knights Templar), auction off some of their own assets, enfief some of their territory with yearly monetary fees replacing military service, or overtax their population by demanding more than the people can afford and get a revolt on their hands.

Basically, the more codified the domain rules become the more player-driven creative solutions that tend to lead to adventures get curtails because no rule set can cover every bit of insanity the players can conceive of.

Out of curiosity, have you tried ACKS's rules as presented in Axioms 3 and Domains at War? Because it can handle everything you're describing above, and more.

I agree with you that most domain rules create mini-games that don't only partially interface with the rest of the game. And I think that's a huge problem. But I've specifically developed and expanded ACKS to address that. ACKS lets you segue between adventurer and domain ruler seamlessly. At present, the game can handle all of the below:

selectively tax - yes
go on a dungeon delve - yes, as well as rules to handle this abstractly if desired
confiscate property from certain individuals - yes
auction off some of their own assets - yes
enfief some of their territory with yearly monetary fees replacing military service - yes
overtax their population by demanding more than the people can afford and get a revolt on their hands - yes

(To be clear ACKS Core Rules couldn't do all of the above, but the system has had 10 years of development.)

Chris24601

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Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
« Reply #40 on: April 12, 2021, 09:49:55 PM »
Out of curiosity, have you tried ACKS's rules as presented in Axioms 3 and Domains at War? Because it can handle everything you're describing above, and more.
Not really. I looked at the free starter version of Domains at War and it just wouldn't be of use to me. Its focus is on medieval-style organization and technology with rare magic while my own fantasy worlds are entirely in the "Thundarr the Barbarian" mold.

Basically, I need rules that can handle things like wyvern, hydra and centaur cavalry, airships, steamboats, cities built into the ruins of a fallen magitech utopia, winged elves, dwarven cyborgs, companies of warcasters, minutemen with arcane-powered rifles, siege cannons, weather control, combat transmutations and instant (though not free) construction using magic, Godzilla-sized war golems and teleportation rings, not to mention your normal fantasy dragons, giants, trolls, orcs, goblins, ogres, etc.

And not just combat, but all the other things those and related items open up outside of combat. Germ theory, the scientific method, and 19th century farming are common in my current setting (relics of the previous age). The amount of labor needed for farming is only about half the population and with magic weather atop the farming techniques crop yields are four times that of the medieval period.

Ultimately though, even if it did offer all of that, it still looked like a lot of bookkeeping for little gain relative to my present system of deciding upon periodic effects and letting the players deal with them organically as they come across them.

estar

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Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
« Reply #41 on: April 12, 2021, 10:41:32 PM »
Well for combat if it stated out for any edition of D&D, Battlesystem 1e will handle it. Why despite it being a AD&D 1e product? Because the heart of it is a dice rolling engine that design to tell you how much damage X folks do if they have Y chance to hit, and doing Z damage. As long as it involves rolling a 1d20 and other dice Battlesystem 1e can handle it.


Pat
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Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
« Reply #42 on: April 12, 2021, 10:59:59 PM »
Well for combat if it stated out for any edition of D&D, Battlesystem 1e will handle it. Why despite it being a AD&D 1e product? Because the heart of it is a dice rolling engine that design to tell you how much damage X folks do if they have Y chance to hit, and doing Z damage. As long as it involves rolling a 1d20 and other dice Battlesystem 1e can handle it.
Agree on BS 1e. It's a remarkable abstraction of AD&D 1st edition, and would work fine with any other old school edition.

Note the version of BATTLESYSTEM on DTRPG is the 2e version, not the 1e version. (Presumably because a boxed set with 800 unpunched chits was hard to find.) I'm not familiar with the 2e version, but it's apparently a very different game. I don't know if it would work as well.

War Machine from BECMI is also easy to adapt, but it's a different and more abstract system rather than D&D scaled up. It's more about moving around armies on a kingdom-level map than fighting with miniatures on a tactical map.

« Last Edit: April 12, 2021, 11:03:08 PM by Pat »

estar

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Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
« Reply #43 on: April 13, 2021, 12:18:16 AM »
Well for combat if it stated out for any edition of D&D, Battlesystem 1e will handle it. Why despite it being a AD&D 1e product? Because the heart of it is a dice rolling engine that design to tell you how much damage X folks do if they have Y chance to hit, and doing Z damage. As long as it involves rolling a 1d20 and other dice Battlesystem 1e can handle it.
Agree on BS 1e. It's a remarkable abstraction of AD&D 1st edition, and would work fine with any other old school edition.

Note the version of BATTLESYSTEM on DTRPG is the 2e version, not the 1e version. (Presumably because a boxed set with 800 unpunched chits was hard to find.) I'm not familiar with the 2e version, but it's apparently a very different game. I don't know if it would work as well.

War Machine from BECMI is also easy to adapt, but it's a different and more abstract system rather than D&D scaled up. It's more about moving around armies on a kingdom-level map than fighting with miniatures on a tactical map.
Battlesystem 1e also works with 3e and 5e quite well. Just need a formula conversion to work with ascending AC. https://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2013/08/adapting-1st-edition-battlesystem-to.html

Yeah it stinks they only have the 2e version on Drivethru
« Last Edit: April 13, 2021, 12:20:24 AM by estar »

S'mon

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Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
« Reply #44 on: April 13, 2021, 02:57:21 AM »
I like to have a setting that functions on its own with or without the players interacting. So when they do, I know the ramifications.
Also, as a natural source of complications they can engage with.

I've used "An Echo Resounding" before as a system to do this and would like to discuss other options and how people made them work.

Where do you find people that are interested in that sort of thing and have experiences to share?

ACKS has already been recommended to you but as the game's designer I figured I would chime in. Based on what you've said in this thread, I would recommend to you this product:
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/194008/Axioms-Issue-3

Axioms Issue 3 is
For kingdom/realm level play it has these articles:

1) Strongholds and Domains: A revised approach to domains for faster, easier play. This is a complete re-tooling of the domain rules in the ACKS Core Rules. The revised rules are more elegant and more robust, while also less complex.

2) Separating Land and Lordship: Rules for domains of governors and landowners. By default, ACKS assumes that domains are ruled by kings/lords who both own and govern. This article allows you to have separate land owners and governors.

3) Senatus Consultum Ultimum: Rules for parliaments and senates. By default, ACKS assumes that domains are ruled by individual lords. This article allows you to set up a senate that the ruler has to consult in order to govern. It has rules for Senatorial intrigue with factions, diplomacy, bribery, etc. The senate rules tie into the rules for the thief endgame (hijinks) so your thieves' guild can slander, bribe, and coerce senators, etc.

4) Wandering into War: A system of domain encounters to keep rulers on their guard. This article lets you randomly determine when, where, and how a domain is attacked by enemies. It takes into account the domain's population density, terrain type, and position relative to other friendly domains.

For manorial- and local-play, the Axioms magazine includes:
5) Of Coins and Commerce: Comments and context on the economy of the Adventurer Conqueror King System. This explains the economic basis for the game, including things like "how much coin is circulating," "what rate of profit could I get from an investment," and so on.

6) The Economics of Peasant Families: What Does life hold for those who till the land? This is ACKS's equivalent to Harn Manor. It breaks down the game's economics at the level of the single farm.

7) Flocks and Herds and Silver and Gold: Calculating the returns from livestock in ACKS. This allows you to simulate pastoralists and herders at a nitty-gritty level.

If you buy just one product for ACKS, buy this one. It'll be the future basis of ACKS Second Edition if I ever write one.

Cheers Alex - have purchased & printing now! :)
My setting (FR Damara 1359 DR) is a feudal kingdom with powerful regional nobles and a relatively weak centre. The various PC realms are currently at manorial/sub-Baronial level, but at least two groups are looking to establish Baronies. I hope to run the setting for many years so should be getting into high politics etc over time; relations with the local Ducal Court are already important.