This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.
NOTICE: Some online security services are reporting that information for a limited number of users from this site is for sale on the "dark web." As of right now, there is no direct evidence of this, but change your password just to be safe.

Author Topic: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?  (Read 911 times)

Greentongue

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1423
    • View Profile
Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2021, 12:47:33 PM »
Hm, you can see some of how it works in play by reading my game logs at http://frloudwater.blogspot.com/
SHINEY!!
:D

estar

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9657
    • View Profile
Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2021, 12:58:15 PM »
I like to have a setting that functions on its own with or without the players interacting. So when they do, I know the ramifications.
Also, as a natural source of complications they can engage with.

I've used "An Echo Resounding" before as a system to do this and would like to discuss other options and how people made them work.

Where do you find people that are interested in that sort of thing and have experiences to share?
I prefer system that start with a design that rests how things worked in history. Then if it is a fantasy setting layers the magic on top of that. My personal system is a hodgepodge of material from History, Harn, and GURPS. A little from the Mythic Europe source material from Ars Magica. And more recently a bunch of stuff from Adventurer, Conqueror, King. In the Axioms Newsletter the authors explain the basis for their mechanics which allowed me to tweak and adapt them from first principles.

The foundation of what I do rests on agricultural productivity with various charts and lists about how long it take to clear, build, and grow stuff. From that I can figure out the surplus. From that I can figure out the sizes of a region's military forces and any other extras like magic school, temples and the like.

I try to reduce everything into straightforward mechanics no more complex than the world building stuff in Traveller.

I highly recommend Harn Manor for when a player owns an estate. Although I am going for something much simpler for my rules.
ACKS for something easy to manage an entire realm.
I like the Pathfinder 1e Campaign Book for construction as it about OK if you spend X then this is what you can get, this is how it helps you, and this is roughly the size the result will be. I am in the processing of adapting it to my own rules.

The idea behind my approach is to learn to detail. Figure out the range, figure out the average. Then boil that down into set of charts. I leave the option of going backwards to more details if that what the players want to do.

Players want to know  couple of things
1) How long it will take to build
2) How much it will take to build
3) What it will take to maintain
4) What income do I get from it.
5) What benefits other than income are there?
6) The rough size so a map can be draw of what was built.

If you can do all that without a spreadsheet than you nailed it.








Greentongue

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1423
    • View Profile
Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2021, 01:48:19 PM »
Talespire is going to Early Release soon and the Low Detail City maps have me inspired to build up a town from just a camp.
https://talesbazaar.com/prefab/1356

Greentongue

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1423
    • View Profile
Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2021, 02:34:49 PM »
Want to build a town up visually and yet functionally.    YOU ARE HERE
If not a base of operations, a blueprint for building out a play area.

Give a running start to "living" area to grow from play.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 02:38:03 PM by Greentongue »

Greentongue

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1423
    • View Profile
Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2021, 06:01:47 PM »
I see things like Guildhall requires Large Town pop. but nothing about wood or stone.
Do you factor these in to determine what most building are constructed from.
Wattle and daub verses solid wood for example.
Would give unique visuals as well as a feeling for their durability.

S'mon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11701
    • View Profile
Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2021, 06:26:53 PM »
I see things like Guildhall requires Large Town pop. but nothing about wood or stone.
Do you factor these in to determine what most building are constructed from.
Wattle and daub verses solid wood for example.
Would give unique visuals as well as a feeling for their durability.

No - and the prices are not really building construction prices, they are the price of setting up a mercantile, religious or arcane organisation. Probably the merchants/church/wizards pay for most of the actual building work.
My 5e and Mini Six Primeval Thule games blog:
https://simonsprimevalthule.blogspot.com
My Forgotten Realms 4e & 5e games blog: https://frloudwater.blogspot.com

Greentongue

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1423
    • View Profile
Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2021, 10:24:08 AM »
I highly recommend Harn Manor for when a player owns an estate. Although I am going for something much simpler for my rules.

I often hear "Harn Manor" suggested. Is it very in the weeds or does it have levels of detail that you can adjust to your needs?
While I'd love to get grainy with details, it's not practical I my view to do that for actual gaming. Unless of course you write a program to handle it for you. If doing that, might as well play "Foundation" (https://www.polymorph.games/) instead.

estar

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9657
    • View Profile
Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2021, 10:55:15 AM »
I highly recommend Harn Manor for when a player owns an estate. Although I am going for something much simpler for my rules.

I often hear "Harn Manor" suggested. Is it very in the weeds or does it have levels of detail that you can adjust to your needs?

It about as detailed as building a Classic (3 LBB) Traveller Starship and using the Trade and Economic rules from Classic Traveller (3 LBB).

There is a spreadsheet style form but not particularly complex. There are two levels of details in the mechanics. The more detailed approach just breaks out what actually planted as crop and what is actually herded as pasture. The less detail approach just track crop and pasture acreage.

But Harnmanor isn't just about being an economic engine. It also allows you to quickly track who are the manor tenants are. And that is coupled with an event table that drive the adventures that surrounds owning and managing a manor.

But like Traveller and managing a fleet of ships. If you want to manage a barony or a kingdom then it is too in the weeds at that level. For that all you need is the total acerage of the individual estates, the type of obligation they owe which is usually one of three things (directly owned, tenant, or religious). That will get you a tally in terms of troops and income.

But like Traveller commerce if you focus on one ship or in one estates than like the classic Traveller rules Harnmanor is your ticket.





Greentongue

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1423
    • View Profile
Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2021, 12:38:13 PM »
Harn looks better every time I look at it.

Has anyone done domain level play?  Is Play by Post the best format for that do you think?
Running something in parallel with character level detail?

estar

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9657
    • View Profile
Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2021, 01:04:40 PM »
Here what a Harnmanor worksheet looks like. In the upper right the breakdown of crops and livestock types is optional.  All the number are in d for denarius for silver penny with the same as a D&D silver piece. A common laborer can earn up to 24d a month. A longsword costs around 135d.

In general to support a Knight, a squire, their horses, and three yeoman (footmen & archers) requires at least a manor with 1,500 acres. Typically manors range from 1,200 acres to 3,000 acres. The worksheet is actually for a monastery so the individuals are less expensive to upkeep but there more of them.

Accompany this is a roster of all your tenants. So referee rolls each year to see what happens to each tenants. Sometime is good and you get a bit extra and sometime it bad. Mostly neutral. The events are generic enough is that you can roleplay out why things happen the way they do resulting in adventures.

And it is suitable for play by post due to the large amount of downtime if the main focus of the character is managing a manor. For face to face or VTT play stuff tends to happen one every handful or so of sessions. A session is spent focused on managing things.  Some stuff happens as result, then the next few session are about dealing with that stuff or furthering any plans the PCs have.

« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 01:14:11 PM by estar »

S'mon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11701
    • View Profile
Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2021, 02:17:56 PM »
Harn looks better every time I look at it.

Has anyone done domain level play?  Is Play by Post the best format for that do you think?
Running something in parallel with character level detail?

I do a lot of domain level play, but it's all from the character POV, I'm not doing spreadsheet analysis & data entry as a separate game. :)

I like Mentzer's domain system (expanded on in ACKS) because it's designed to support character play, not be a separate game like Birthright or Fields of Blood.
My 5e and Mini Six Primeval Thule games blog:
https://simonsprimevalthule.blogspot.com
My Forgotten Realms 4e & 5e games blog: https://frloudwater.blogspot.com

Greentongue

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1423
    • View Profile
Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2021, 05:34:24 PM »
That sheet has very good info at your fingertips.
Harn is certainly grounded in science as far as I can tell. If I can't tell then I guess it doesn't matter if it is not.

Does present a quandary about who "Adventurers" are and the whole "Murder Hobo" aspect of a lot of the games I hear about.

Noble level play is a whole different "ball game" than things the "common folk" would be doing.
So many interesting levels available.

Premier

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • P
  • Posts: 1150
    • View Profile
Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2021, 07:56:52 PM »
One option you might want to look at is Bulls and Mine Rights, the domain management system from Melan/Gabor Lux's Sword & Magic game. It is highly abstract, easy to use, works on a village/town/city level, and is focused on the fundamental question of how much tax money you get and how much money you must spend on varous developments. There's no official English version of it (Sword & Magic 2nd ed. is coming, though, and it will be in English), but there's an unofficial abridged (notes-style) translation here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TJFLEEStg2c8taC8twjZ-HKthuMZd2ewtD1nvk7E2R4/edit?usp=sharing
Obvious troll is obvious. RIP, Bill.

Greentongue

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1423
    • View Profile
Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2021, 10:53:05 PM »
Do you detail the neighboring "manors" and if so, how many of them? Is 6 a good number? As in each hex side direction.

Are the detailed areas other manors or "Points of Interest"?

Greentongue

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1423
    • View Profile
Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2021, 11:01:26 PM »
One option you might want to look at is Bulls and Mine Rights, the domain management system from Melan/Gabor Lux's Sword & Magic game. It is highly abstract, easy to use, works on a village/town/city level, and is focused on the fundamental question of how much tax money you get and how much money you must spend on varous developments.
It is interesting but I think the development specifics might matter a bit more as characters can see or otherwise interact with it.
While it might not need to be updated unless characters do interact, I think an initial detailed layout would be useful.

Harn Manor seems like a good choice but maybe overkill?