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Author Topic: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?  (Read 350 times)

Greentongue

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Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
« on: April 07, 2021, 08:15:25 PM »
I like to have a setting that functions on its own with or without the players interacting. So when they do, I know the ramifications.
Also, as a natural source of complications they can engage with.

I've used "An Echo Resounding" before as a system to do this and would like to discuss other options and how people made them work.

Where do you find people that are interested in that sort of thing and have experiences to share?

S'mon

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Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2021, 02:12:18 AM »
I'm definitely into this stuff. I tend to use the BECMI companion set rules as a base. Here's the player facing rules on my current 5e D&D campaign blog http://frloudwater.blogspot.com/2020/08/faerun-adventures-beginner-5e-d-game.html :

Territory Development
When characters clear and rule territory around a stronghold (at least 10 miles radius), they may receive a tax income of typically 5 silver pieces per inhabitant per month, plus any Resource income. High level Fighters, and some other classes, may also have a body of Followers come to serve them. A typical initial domain has 2-8 (2d4) hamlets, each with 101-400 (1d3x100 + 1d100) people. Politically this is, or is equivalent to, a minor Barony.

Typical Followers for PC Level 9+ ("Lord")

Warlord's Followers (roll d4 or choose)
(1). 20 light cavalry (9gp/m), ringmail & shield AC 16, longsword, hand axe, 3 javelins.
      100 heavy infantry (6gp/m), scale AC 15, halberd, club.
(2) 20 heavy infantry (6p/m), splint & shield AC 19, morningstar, hand axe.
      60 pike infantry (6gp/m), padded AC 12, long pike, short sword.
(3) 40 heavy crossbowmen (6gp/m), chain AC 16, heavy crossbow, shortsword
      20 light crossbowmen (6gp/m), chain AC 16, light crossbow, shortsword 
(4) 10 heavy cavalry (15gp/m), splint & shield AC 19, lance longsword & mace
      20 medium cavalry (12gp/m), scale & shield AC 17, lance longsword & mace
      30 light cavalry (9gp/m), studded & shield AC 15, lance & flail
Troops typically are veterans and use Mercenary stats (hp 16, ST+2 DE+1 CO+1), with adjustments for equipment as above.

Troop Commander (d4):
(1) Fighter-4, plate armour & shield AC 20, +2 longsword or +2 battle-axe
(2) Fighter-4, plate armour & +1 shield AC 21, +1 longsword & +1 lance
(3) Fighter-4, +1 plate armour & shield AC 21, +1 longbow & +1 longsword
(4) Fighter-4, +1 plate & +1 shield AC 22, +2 longsword or +2 battle-axe, barded heavy warhorse with horseshoes of speed.
Commander Upkeep: 60gp/month

Troop Lieutenant (d4)
(1)-(2) Fighter-2, splint & shield AC 19
(3) Fighter-3, plate & shield AC 20
(4) Fighter-3, plate & shield AC 20, +1 longsword
The Lieutenant can advance to Fighter-4 in play.
Lieutenant Upkeep: 30gp/month

Troop Commander & Lieutenant may be created by the Player or DM, using Standard Array attributes.

Alternate Followers
Rogue's Guild: 1d3 MM Spy, 2d3 MM Thug, 1d3 Rogue-1 (hp 10 DEX+3)
Wizard's Tower: 1d3 Wizard-1, 2d6 Mercenary (hp 16 ST+2)
Priest's Temple: 1 MM Priest, 2d3 MM Acolyte, 2d6 Mercenary (hp 16 ST+2), 1d3 Cleric-1 (hp 9 WIS+2)
Druid's Grove: 1d2 MM Druid sc4, 1d3 Druid-1 (hp 9 WIS+2)
Bard's Company: 1d2 VGTM Bard sc4, 1d3 MM Spy, 1d3 Bard-1 (hp 9  CHA+2)
Barbarian's Holdfast: 1d3 MM Berserker, 20d6 MM Tribal Warrior, 1d3 Barbarian-1 (hp 14 ST+3)
Other classes typically acquire 1d3 1st level followers of the character's own class, eg a Fighter Lord may acquire 1d3 Fighter-1 (hp 12 ST+3).

PC-class Followers may be created by the Player or DM, using Standard Array attributes.

Most strongholds will also attract an appropriate number of Commoners to serve the PC. A Wizard's Tower might have only 1d6, where a Warlord's fortress has 10d6 or more.
Losses of non-classed followers may typically be replaced at a rate of 5% of initial total per month, eg a force of 120 can replace 6/month.

Classed Followers
Classed followers may use a generic template as above, or may be created by the player using the standard PC rules (and may be played as a PC in lower level adventures). Classed followers are not replaced if lost, but every month there is a 10% chance to acquire one additional such follower.
Charisma Limit: No character may ever have more classed followers (aka Henchmen) at once than their Charisma bonus +4 ; eg CHA 8 (-1) enables 3 such followers, while CHA 20 (+5) enables 9 such followers.

Realm Improvements

Magic Resources
Religious
Shrine (1 Acolyte sc1): 1,500gp & 5 weeks. Requires: Thorpe pop. 20
Church (1 Priest sc3, 1 Acolyte sc1): 4,500gp & 7 weeks. Requires: Hamlet pop.100
Temple (1 Priest sc5, 2 Priest sc3, 4 Acolyte sc1): 15,000gp & 11 weeks. Requires: Village pop. 500
Abbey (1 Abbott/Abbess sc5, 2 Senior Brother/Sister sc 3, 4 Monk/Nun sc 2, 8 Monk/Nun sc1): 50,000gp & 57 weeks. Requires: -
Cathedral (1 Bishop sc7, 2 Priest sc4, 4 Priest sc2, 8 Acolyte sc1):  42,000gp & 20 weeks. Requires: Small City pop. 6,000
Arcane
Arcane Tower (1 Wizard sc3, 1 Apprentice Wizard sc1): 4,500gp & 8 weeks. Requires: -
Arcane Guild Hall (1 Wizard sc5, 2 Wizard sc3, 4 Apprentice Wizard sc1): 15,000gp & 14 weeks. Requires: Small Town pop. 1,500
Arcane University (1 Mage sc9, 2 Wizard sc5, 4 Wizard sc3, 8 Apprentice Wizard sc1): 54,000gp & 31 weeks. Requires: Small City pop. 6,000

Mercantile & Administrative
Trading post (improves all Resource income by +10% in a 2 hex/20 mile radius): 5,000gp & 8 weeks. Requires: -
Guildhall (improves 1 Resource income by +20% in a 2 hex/20 mile radius): 5,000gp & 12 weeks. Requires Large Town pop. 3,000.
Noble Estate with Manor, luxurious (improves Tax income by +10% in a 2 hex/20 mile radius): 25,000gp & 21 weeks. Requires: -
Imperial Palace (improves Tax income by +10% across entire dominion): 500,000gp & 3 years. Requires: -

Fortification
Tower/Broch: 10,000gp & 12 weeks. Can hold 30 infantry.
Motte & Bailey: 20,000gp & 18 weeks. Can hold 60 infantry.
Small Castle: 40,000gp & 30 weeks. Can hold 125 infantry.
Large Castle: 80,000gp & 45 weeks. Can hold 250 infantry.
Fortress: 160,000gp & 60 weeks. Can hold 500 infantry.
Citadel: 320,000gp & 90 weeks. Can hold 1,000 infantry.
One light cavalry = 3 infantry. One medium or heavy cavalry = 4 infantry.

Manor Resource Improvements
At Manor Scale, 1 hex = 2 miles. For Baronial Scale (1 hex = 10 miles) multiply costs & incomes by x10.
25gp/month = 300gp/year. 50gp/month =600gp/year.
Mine (requires valuable minerals): cost 2d4x100gp, income +1d6x100gp/month. Population +2d4
Smelter (requires Mine): cost 1,000gp, income +2d4x10gp/month. Population +2d4
Logging Camp (requires Forest**): cost 1,000gp, income +1d4x10gp/month. Population +4d4
Sawmill (requires Logging Camp): cost 2,000gp, income +2d4x10gp/month. Population +2d4
Improved Farmland (requires Plains***): cost 2,000gp, income +2d4x10gp/m. Population +4d4
Fishing Ship (requires Sea): cost 2,000gp, income +2d4x10gp/m. Population +2d4

*Typically a 1 in 6 chance there is a mining resource per two mile hex. With one surveyor a survey takes 1 month (& a typical 30gp hireling cost) per 2 mile hex, requires a character with Miner's Tools Proficiency or equivalent and a successful proficiency (INT) check at a DC of 5+1d10 (1e: 4 in 6 chance of success).
If a resource is discovered, the GM rolls 1d6, or selects:
1: clay or stone quarry 100gp/m
2: lead or coal mine 200gp/m
3: copper or oil/tar mine 300gp/m
4: silver or tin mine 400gp/m
5: gold mine or marble quarry 500gp/m
6: platinum or gemstone mine 600gp/m

**One two mile hex, approx 3.5 sq m of forest.
***One square mile of arable land.

Baronial Domains

Resources per hex (Baronial Scale, 1 hex = 10 miles across, approx 85 sq m)
1: 1 resource
2-7: 2 resources
8-9: 3 resources
10: 4 resources

Resource Type
1-3 Animal (eg dairy, fish, fowl, furs, bees, horses, ivory, beef, pork)
4-8 Vegetable (eg farm produce, foodstuffs, oil, fodder, wood & timber, paper, wine)
9-10 Mineral (as above)

Baronial Income (per 10 mile hex, a domain has 1+ hexes).
Animal Resource: 10 sp/person/month, max 1d4x1,000 (2,500) gp/month per hex.
Vegetable Resource: 5 sp/person/month, max 1d6x1,000 (3,500) gp/month per hex.
Mineral Resource: 15 sp/person/month, max 1d8x1,000gp (4,500) gp/month per hex.

The maximum resource income for a 10-mile domain hex thus varies from 1,000gp/month, to 32,000gp/month!

Towns & Cities: These generate 5 sp per person per month in taxes and tolls.
Theocratic Domains generate an additional 2 sp per person per month in tithes.

10-mile Hex Population & Rate of Increase
Population will naturally increase through immigration and birth up to the limit of available resources. Eg an intensively farmed domain with 4 vegetable resources generating up to 14,000gp/m total could have a population of 28,000.
1-100: +25%/month
101-200: +20%/month
201-300: +15%/month
301-400: +10%/month
401-500: +5%/month
501-1000: +2%/month
1001-2000: +1%/month
2001-4000: +1%/2 months
40001-8000: +1%/4 months
8001-16000: +1%/6 months
16001+: +1%/year

Urbanisation
Population centres begin to emerge when a hex population reaches 10,000. At this point 10% of the population may be considered urban, generating an additional 5sp/month per urban inhabitant.
______________________________

Sources for the above include:
OD&D Book 3 - eg for starting population
1e AD&D DMG - for the followers (Fighter Lord followers table)
Mentzer BECMI D&D Companion Set - for Barony domain resources
Fields of Blood: The Book of War for 3e - ideas for realm improvements
The prospecting for resources system I came up with myself, I looked at the 1e DSG mining rules but I don't think I used them.

ACKS (Adventurer Conqueror King System) has a more detailed take on the Mentzer rules that is worth looking at.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 03:36:22 AM by S'mon »
My 5e and Mini Six Primeval Thule games blog:
https://simonsprimevalthule.blogspot.com
My Forgotten Realms 4e & 5e games blog: https://frloudwater.blogspot.com

S'mon

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Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2021, 02:15:46 AM »
For random events I use a 50% chance per Tenday, and roll on the d% table from Dragon Magazine article 'Holding Down the Fort' by Matt Iden (May 1989) tweaking as appropriate. Eg IMC one party has a miners' festhall in a frontier mining region, a roll of 'major patrol accident' I translated as a serious brawl that killed d4 miners - rolled 3 - and injured several of the hall guards.
My 5e and Mini Six Primeval Thule games blog:
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Greentongue

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Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2021, 10:46:50 AM »
Nice.

I've also tested out the "Hellfrost Supplementary: Resource Management" a little as well as "ACKS: Strongholds and Domains" and found they both have nice features.
The biggest problems is even the simplest thing gets unmanageable as the size of the domain and level of detail increases.
Both have multiplicative effects.

If you just want to focus on the player's viewpoint, that reduces the needed data and reduces the load but, if you want to do a top down area, it gets out of hand quickly.

AER allowed me to runs 4 kingdoms for a while but stuttered when size grew large and interactions escalated. 

Do you remain focused on what directly interacts with the players or maintain an area around them?

S'mon

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Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2021, 11:11:39 AM »
Do you remain focused on what directly interacts with the players or maintain an area around them?

I only work out domain stats for PC-ruled areas. On this map

there are three PC-ruled domains, at D'Ashe Manor, Ramvira Tower, and Fort Skulnar (Ironwolf Manor). Currently D'Ashe and Ramvira domains are at the Manor scale (a few square miles), while Ironwolf Manor was granted a 6 mile radius by the local Duchess, so I crunched the numbers at Barony scale although it's basically wilderness at present.

The system being BECMI based is centred around the Barony scale of a few hundred square miles; if a PC became ruler of a larger territory I'd probably do the normal calculation for their personal fiefdom only, since I use the OD&D-1e assumption that you can only directly rule & tax the area where you can directly project force, usually within 5-50 square miles of your fortress depending on the terrain. NPC sub-domains would remain abstracted but the 20% Salt Tax from BECMI is a guide to how much the PC ruler can extract from them.

NPC domains are treated more like encounters; I only need to know the major NPCs, any standing forces, for treasury I'm probably rolling on the 5e treasure hoard tables. Eg when the PCs took over D'Ashe Manor I used the Tier I/Level 1-4 Hoard table. A Barony level dominion would typically get Tier II treasury, a County or Duchy Tier III, a modest king's treasury several (2 or 3) Tier III, centralised kingdom or empire (Cormyr, Thay) Tier IV. Something like the Mystara Thyatian Empire would get at least 3 rolls on Tier IV for the Imperial treasury.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 11:19:30 AM by S'mon »
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RandyB

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Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2021, 11:15:44 AM »
The best domain play rules I've seen are in ACKS - Adventurer Conqueror King System. The game is B/X derived and centered on domain play as the expected endgame.

Greentongue

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Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2021, 11:20:55 AM »
I only work out domain stats for PC-ruled areas. On this map
Did you build out the populated areas off of a base resource map or throw things down as gaming need required?

ACKS is great but quickly becomes a real chore unless you love spreadsheets.
I'd rather something more board game level of complexity.

What would be nice to find is a "build tree" like you see for tech advances in video games.
Give a nice organic growth to an area and establish "realistic" trade dependencies.

RandyB

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Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2021, 11:43:49 AM »
I only work out domain stats for PC-ruled areas. On this map
Did you build out the populated areas off of a base resource map or throw things down as gaming need required?

ACKS is great but quickly becomes a real chore unless you love spreadsheets.
I'd rather something more board game level of complexity.

What would be nice to find is a "build tree" like you see for tech advances in video games.
Give a nice organic growth to an area and establish "realistic" trade dependencies.

Yeah. The spreadsheet is the spirit animal of ACKS.

S'mon

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Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2021, 11:47:22 AM »
I only work out domain stats for PC-ruled areas. On this map
Did you build out the populated areas off of a base resource map or throw things down as gaming need required?

I was mostly using my geographical knowledge and basing it off an area I'm familiar with, western Aberdeenshire bordering the Cairngorm mountains.

I have some standard metrics such as self-sustaining settlements should not be over 10 miles apart even in sparsely settled borderlands. The area is a subsection of the map of Damara in FR9 Bloodstone Lands


Resources are only defined mechanically once an area is PC-controlled. I know that say the Moonfog Hills produce silver & mithril, but I'm not crunching any numbers unless & until PCs take over the area.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 11:55:35 AM by S'mon »
My 5e and Mini Six Primeval Thule games blog:
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S'mon

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Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2021, 11:49:55 AM »
What would be nice to find is a "build tree" like you see for tech advances in video games.
Give a nice organic growth to an area and establish "realistic" trade dependencies.

Yeah, if you look at my notes above you'll see a simple build tree I derived from Fields of Blood: The Book of War. Various settlement sizes unlock more advanced mercantile & magical resources. You can put a trading post anywhere, but you need a town for a merchant's guild.
My 5e and Mini Six Primeval Thule games blog:
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My Forgotten Realms 4e & 5e games blog: https://frloudwater.blogspot.com

Greentongue

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Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2021, 11:52:21 AM »
Do you track families? Noble or common? What about personal names?
Has it ever mattered during a game which family a NPC was a member of?

Are there resource constraints in your setting? If so, how does the population deal with them?
Trade? Raiding?

I assume there are hostiles about. Do they impact day to day life directly or just as a game event?

Greentongue

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Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2021, 11:53:28 AM »
Yeah, if you look at my notes above you'll see a simple build tree I derived from Fields of Blood: The Book of War. Various settlement sizes unlock more advanced mercantile & magical resources. You can put a trading post anywhere, but you need a town for a merchant's guild.
Going to have to add that to my reading list promptly. Thanks for the tip on it.

RandyB

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Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2021, 12:09:42 PM »
Go back to the source.

Tony Bath's Setting Up A Wargames Campaign.

It's not a campaign rules system, it's principles, concepts, and examples derived from his own infamous Hyborean wargame campaign. And it reminds you of why you want to do this in the first place - awesome gaming for you and your players.

S'mon

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Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2021, 12:23:39 PM »
Yeah, if you look at my notes above you'll see a simple build tree I derived from Fields of Blood: The Book of War. Various settlement sizes unlock more advanced mercantile & magical resources. You can put a trading post anywhere, but you need a town for a merchant's guild.
Going to have to add that to my reading list promptly. Thanks for the tip on it.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/691/Fields-of-Blood-The-Book-of-War

It's 3e-era and a little bit too rules heavy & magic-heavy for my tastes, but I find it very inspirational and often go back to it. Cool art, too!
My 5e and Mini Six Primeval Thule games blog:
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S'mon

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Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2021, 12:29:27 PM »
Do you track families? Noble or common? What about personal names?
Has it ever mattered during a game which family a NPC was a member of?

Are there resource constraints in your setting? If so, how does the population deal with them?
Trade? Raiding?

I assume there are hostiles about. Do they impact day to day life directly or just as a game event?

Yes there are families, noble and common, and they have names, and often NPC's family matters. :)
There are various hostiles of course, humanoid tribes, demon cults, etc etc.
The low population density means that resource constraints aren't a major factor in the local campaign area. They are in the densely populated heartlands of the kingdom around Lake Mogador, where Salvatore's FR9 notes that eg Polten & Ostel often clash.

Hm, you can see some of how it works in play by reading my game logs at http://frloudwater.blogspot.com/
My 5e and Mini Six Primeval Thule games blog:
https://simonsprimevalthule.blogspot.com
My Forgotten Realms 4e & 5e games blog: https://frloudwater.blogspot.com