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Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion => Topic started by: Greentongue on April 07, 2021, 08:15:25 PM

Title: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: Greentongue on April 07, 2021, 08:15:25 PM
I like to have a setting that functions on its own with or without the players interacting. So when they do, I know the ramifications.
Also, as a natural source of complications they can engage with.

I've used "An Echo Resounding" before as a system to do this and would like to discuss other options and how people made them work.

Where do you find people that are interested in that sort of thing and have experiences to share?
Title: Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: S'mon on April 08, 2021, 02:12:18 AM
I'm definitely into this stuff. I tend to use the BECMI companion set rules as a base. Here's the player facing rules on my current 5e D&D campaign blog http://frloudwater.blogspot.com/2020/08/faerun-adventures-beginner-5e-d-game.html (http://frloudwater.blogspot.com/2020/08/faerun-adventures-beginner-5e-d-game.html) :

Territory Development
When characters clear and rule territory around a stronghold (at least 10 miles radius), they may receive a tax income of typically 5 silver pieces per inhabitant per month, plus any Resource income. High level Fighters, and some other classes, may also have a body of Followers come to serve them. A typical initial domain has 2-8 (2d4) hamlets, each with 101-400 (1d3x100 + 1d100) people. Politically this is, or is equivalent to, a minor Barony.

Typical Followers for PC Level 9+ ("Lord")

Warlord's Followers (roll d4 or choose)
(1). 20 light cavalry (9gp/m), ringmail & shield AC 16, longsword, hand axe, 3 javelins.
      100 heavy infantry (6gp/m), scale AC 15, halberd, club.
(2) 20 heavy infantry (6p/m), splint & shield AC 19, morningstar, hand axe.
      60 pike infantry (6gp/m), padded AC 12, long pike, short sword.
(3) 40 heavy crossbowmen (6gp/m), chain AC 16, heavy crossbow, shortsword
      20 light crossbowmen (6gp/m), chain AC 16, light crossbow, shortsword 
(4) 10 heavy cavalry (15gp/m), splint & shield AC 19, lance longsword & mace
      20 medium cavalry (12gp/m), scale & shield AC 17, lance longsword & mace
      30 light cavalry (9gp/m), studded & shield AC 15, lance & flail
Troops typically are veterans and use Mercenary stats (hp 16, ST+2 DE+1 CO+1), with adjustments for equipment as above.

Troop Commander (d4):
(1) Fighter-4, plate armour & shield AC 20, +2 longsword or +2 battle-axe
(2) Fighter-4, plate armour & +1 shield AC 21, +1 longsword & +1 lance
(3) Fighter-4, +1 plate armour & shield AC 21, +1 longbow & +1 longsword
(4) Fighter-4, +1 plate & +1 shield AC 22, +2 longsword or +2 battle-axe, barded heavy warhorse with horseshoes of speed.
Commander Upkeep: 60gp/month

Troop Lieutenant (d4)
(1)-(2) Fighter-2, splint & shield AC 19
(3) Fighter-3, plate & shield AC 20
(4) Fighter-3, plate & shield AC 20, +1 longsword
The Lieutenant can advance to Fighter-4 in play.
Lieutenant Upkeep: 30gp/month

Troop Commander & Lieutenant may be created by the Player or DM, using Standard Array attributes.

Alternate Followers
Rogue's Guild: 1d3 MM Spy, 2d3 MM Thug, 1d3 Rogue-1 (hp 10 DEX+3)
Wizard's Tower: 1d3 Wizard-1, 2d6 Mercenary (hp 16 ST+2)
Priest's Temple: 1 MM Priest, 2d3 MM Acolyte, 2d6 Mercenary (hp 16 ST+2), 1d3 Cleric-1 (hp 9 WIS+2)
Druid's Grove: 1d2 MM Druid sc4, 1d3 Druid-1 (hp 9 WIS+2)
Bard's Company: 1d2 VGTM Bard sc4, 1d3 MM Spy, 1d3 Bard-1 (hp 9  CHA+2)
Barbarian's Holdfast: 1d3 MM Berserker, 20d6 MM Tribal Warrior, 1d3 Barbarian-1 (hp 14 ST+3)
Other classes typically acquire 1d3 1st level followers of the character's own class, eg a Fighter Lord may acquire 1d3 Fighter-1 (hp 12 ST+3).

PC-class Followers may be created by the Player or DM, using Standard Array attributes.

Most strongholds will also attract an appropriate number of Commoners to serve the PC. A Wizard's Tower might have only 1d6, where a Warlord's fortress has 10d6 or more.
Losses of non-classed followers may typically be replaced at a rate of 5% of initial total per month, eg a force of 120 can replace 6/month.

Classed Followers
Classed followers may use a generic template as above, or may be created by the player using the standard PC rules (and may be played as a PC in lower level adventures). Classed followers are not replaced if lost, but every month there is a 10% chance to acquire one additional such follower.
Charisma Limit: No character may ever have more classed followers (aka Henchmen) at once than their Charisma bonus +4 ; eg CHA 8 (-1) enables 3 such followers, while CHA 20 (+5) enables 9 such followers.

Realm Improvements

Magic Resources
Religious
Shrine (1 Acolyte sc1): 1,500gp & 5 weeks. Requires: Thorpe pop. 20
Church (1 Priest sc3, 1 Acolyte sc1): 4,500gp & 7 weeks. Requires: Hamlet pop.100
Temple (1 Priest sc5, 2 Priest sc3, 4 Acolyte sc1): 15,000gp & 11 weeks. Requires: Village pop. 500
Abbey (1 Abbott/Abbess sc5, 2 Senior Brother/Sister sc 3, 4 Monk/Nun sc 2, 8 Monk/Nun sc1): 50,000gp & 57 weeks. Requires: -
Cathedral (1 Bishop sc7, 2 Priest sc4, 4 Priest sc2, 8 Acolyte sc1):  42,000gp & 20 weeks. Requires: Small City pop. 6,000
Arcane
Arcane Tower (1 Wizard sc3, 1 Apprentice Wizard sc1): 4,500gp & 8 weeks. Requires: -
Arcane Guild Hall (1 Wizard sc5, 2 Wizard sc3, 4 Apprentice Wizard sc1): 15,000gp & 14 weeks. Requires: Small Town pop. 1,500
Arcane University (1 Mage sc9, 2 Wizard sc5, 4 Wizard sc3, 8 Apprentice Wizard sc1): 54,000gp & 31 weeks. Requires: Small City pop. 6,000

Mercantile & Administrative
Trading post (improves all Resource income by +10% in a 2 hex/20 mile radius): 5,000gp & 8 weeks. Requires: -
Guildhall (improves 1 Resource income by +20% in a 2 hex/20 mile radius): 5,000gp & 12 weeks. Requires Large Town pop. 3,000.
Noble Estate with Manor, luxurious (improves Tax income by +10% in a 2 hex/20 mile radius): 25,000gp & 21 weeks. Requires: -
Imperial Palace (improves Tax income by +10% across entire dominion): 500,000gp & 3 years. Requires: -

Fortification
Tower/Broch: 10,000gp & 12 weeks. Can hold 30 infantry.
Motte & Bailey: 20,000gp & 18 weeks. Can hold 60 infantry.
Small Castle: 40,000gp & 30 weeks. Can hold 125 infantry.
Large Castle: 80,000gp & 45 weeks. Can hold 250 infantry.
Fortress: 160,000gp & 60 weeks. Can hold 500 infantry.
Citadel: 320,000gp & 90 weeks. Can hold 1,000 infantry.
One light cavalry = 3 infantry. One medium or heavy cavalry = 4 infantry.

Manor Resource Improvements
At Manor Scale, 1 hex = 2 miles. For Baronial Scale (1 hex = 10 miles) multiply costs & incomes by x10.
25gp/month = 300gp/year. 50gp/month =600gp/year.
Mine (requires valuable minerals): cost 2d4x100gp, income +1d6x100gp/month. Population +2d4
Smelter (requires Mine): cost 1,000gp, income +2d4x10gp/month. Population +2d4
Logging Camp (requires Forest**): cost 1,000gp, income +1d4x10gp/month. Population +4d4
Sawmill (requires Logging Camp): cost 2,000gp, income +2d4x10gp/month. Population +2d4
Improved Farmland (requires Plains***): cost 2,000gp, income +2d4x10gp/m. Population +4d4
Fishing Ship (requires Sea): cost 2,000gp, income +2d4x10gp/m. Population +2d4

*Typically a 1 in 6 chance there is a mining resource per two mile hex. With one surveyor a survey takes 1 month (& a typical 30gp hireling cost) per 2 mile hex, requires a character with Miner's Tools Proficiency or equivalent and a successful proficiency (INT) check at a DC of 5+1d10 (1e: 4 in 6 chance of success).
If a resource is discovered, the GM rolls 1d6, or selects:
1: clay or stone quarry 100gp/m
2: lead or coal mine 200gp/m
3: copper or oil/tar mine 300gp/m
4: silver or tin mine 400gp/m
5: gold mine or marble quarry 500gp/m
6: platinum or gemstone mine 600gp/m

**One two mile hex, approx 3.5 sq m of forest.
***One square mile of arable land.

Baronial Domains

Resources per hex (Baronial Scale, 1 hex = 10 miles across, approx 85 sq m)
1: 1 resource
2-7: 2 resources
8-9: 3 resources
10: 4 resources

Resource Type
1-3 Animal (eg dairy, fish, fowl, furs, bees, horses, ivory, beef, pork)
4-8 Vegetable (eg farm produce, foodstuffs, oil, fodder, wood & timber, paper, wine)
9-10 Mineral (as above)

Baronial Income (per 10 mile hex, a domain has 1+ hexes).
Animal Resource: 10 sp/person/month, max 1d4x1,000 (2,500) gp/month per hex.
Vegetable Resource: 5 sp/person/month, max 1d6x1,000 (3,500) gp/month per hex.
Mineral Resource: 15 sp/person/month, max 1d8x1,000gp (4,500) gp/month per hex.

The maximum resource income for a 10-mile domain hex thus varies from 1,000gp/month, to 32,000gp/month!

Towns & Cities: These generate 5 sp per person per month in taxes and tolls.
Theocratic Domains generate an additional 2 sp per person per month in tithes.

10-mile Hex Population & Rate of Increase
Population will naturally increase through immigration and birth up to the limit of available resources. Eg an intensively farmed domain with 4 vegetable resources generating up to 14,000gp/m total could have a population of 28,000.
1-100: +25%/month
101-200: +20%/month
201-300: +15%/month
301-400: +10%/month
401-500: +5%/month
501-1000: +2%/month
1001-2000: +1%/month
2001-4000: +1%/2 months
40001-8000: +1%/4 months
8001-16000: +1%/6 months
16001+: +1%/year

Urbanisation
Population centres begin to emerge when a hex population reaches 10,000. At this point 10% of the population may be considered urban, generating an additional 5sp/month per urban inhabitant.
______________________________

Sources for the above include:
OD&D Book 3 - eg for starting population
1e AD&D DMG - for the followers (Fighter Lord followers table)
Mentzer BECMI D&D Companion Set - for Barony domain resources
Fields of Blood: The Book of War for 3e - ideas for realm improvements
The prospecting for resources system I came up with myself, I looked at the 1e DSG mining rules but I don't think I used them.

ACKS (Adventurer Conqueror King System) has a more detailed take on the Mentzer rules that is worth looking at.
Title: Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: S'mon on April 08, 2021, 02:15:46 AM
For random events I use a 50% chance per Tenday, and roll on the d% table from Dragon Magazine article 'Holding Down the Fort' by Matt Iden (May 1989) tweaking as appropriate. Eg IMC one party has a miners' festhall in a frontier mining region, a roll of 'major patrol accident' I translated as a serious brawl that killed d4 miners - rolled 3 - and injured several of the hall guards.
Title: Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: Greentongue on April 08, 2021, 10:46:50 AM
Nice.

I've also tested out the "Hellfrost Supplementary: Resource Management" a little as well as "ACKS: Strongholds and Domains" and found they both have nice features.
The biggest problems is even the simplest thing gets unmanageable as the size of the domain and level of detail increases.
Both have multiplicative effects.

If you just want to focus on the player's viewpoint, that reduces the needed data and reduces the load but, if you want to do a top down area, it gets out of hand quickly.

AER allowed me to runs 4 kingdoms for a while but stuttered when size grew large and interactions escalated. 

Do you remain focused on what directly interacts with the players or maintain an area around them?
Title: Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: S'mon on April 08, 2021, 11:11:39 AM
Do you remain focused on what directly interacts with the players or maintain an area around them?

I only work out domain stats for PC-ruled areas. On this map
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-qfRJoD0KF8I/YFhZiJZLg1I/AAAAAAAARwI/uCOs_Ffx7nsZDQ900VzcevqjXtBxO7JIACLcBGAsYHQ/s16000/Hommlet-Gurzun%2527s%2Bannotated%2Bbmp.bmp)
there are three PC-ruled domains, at D'Ashe Manor, Ramvira Tower, and Fort Skulnar (Ironwolf Manor). Currently D'Ashe and Ramvira domains are at the Manor scale (a few square miles), while Ironwolf Manor was granted a 6 mile radius by the local Duchess, so I crunched the numbers at Barony scale although it's basically wilderness at present.

The system being BECMI based is centred around the Barony scale of a few hundred square miles; if a PC became ruler of a larger territory I'd probably do the normal calculation for their personal fiefdom only, since I use the OD&D-1e assumption that you can only directly rule & tax the area where you can directly project force, usually within 5-50 square miles of your fortress depending on the terrain. NPC sub-domains would remain abstracted but the 20% Salt Tax from BECMI is a guide to how much the PC ruler can extract from them.

NPC domains are treated more like encounters; I only need to know the major NPCs, any standing forces, for treasury I'm probably rolling on the 5e treasure hoard tables. Eg when the PCs took over D'Ashe Manor I used the Tier I/Level 1-4 Hoard table. A Barony level dominion would typically get Tier II treasury, a County or Duchy Tier III, a modest king's treasury several (2 or 3) Tier III, centralised kingdom or empire (Cormyr, Thay) Tier IV. Something like the Mystara Thyatian Empire would get at least 3 rolls on Tier IV for the Imperial treasury.
Title: Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: RandyB on April 08, 2021, 11:15:44 AM
The best domain play rules I've seen are in ACKS - Adventurer Conqueror King System. The game is B/X derived and centered on domain play as the expected endgame.
Title: Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: Greentongue on April 08, 2021, 11:20:55 AM
I only work out domain stats for PC-ruled areas. On this map
Did you build out the populated areas off of a base resource map or throw things down as gaming need required?

ACKS is great but quickly becomes a real chore unless you love spreadsheets.
I'd rather something more board game level of complexity.

What would be nice to find is a "build tree" like you see for tech advances in video games.
Give a nice organic growth to an area and establish "realistic" trade dependencies.
Title: Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: RandyB on April 08, 2021, 11:43:49 AM
I only work out domain stats for PC-ruled areas. On this map
Did you build out the populated areas off of a base resource map or throw things down as gaming need required?

ACKS is great but quickly becomes a real chore unless you love spreadsheets.
I'd rather something more board game level of complexity.

What would be nice to find is a "build tree" like you see for tech advances in video games.
Give a nice organic growth to an area and establish "realistic" trade dependencies.

Yeah. The spreadsheet is the spirit animal of ACKS.
Title: Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: S'mon on April 08, 2021, 11:47:22 AM
I only work out domain stats for PC-ruled areas. On this map
Did you build out the populated areas off of a base resource map or throw things down as gaming need required?

I was mostly using my geographical knowledge and basing it off an area I'm familiar with, western Aberdeenshire bordering the Cairngorm mountains.
(https://cdn.britannica.com/s:690x388,c:crop/89/144889-050-9E1317AB/Lochnagar-Grampian-Mountains-Scotland-Aberdeenshire.jpg)
I have some standard metrics such as self-sustaining settlements should not be over 10 miles apart even in sparsely settled borderlands. The area is a subsection of the map of Damara in FR9 Bloodstone Lands
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-H550IRnqabI/YDIbvrJCxPI/AAAAAAAARgc/SOvoULqss7oqA1v1thHWrzQJPKNz3AejACLcBGAsYHQ/s16000/Damara%2Bwith%2BPolitical%2BBorders%2B.bmp)

Resources are only defined mechanically once an area is PC-controlled. I know that say the Moonfog Hills produce silver & mithril, but I'm not crunching any numbers unless & until PCs take over the area.
Title: Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: S'mon on April 08, 2021, 11:49:55 AM
What would be nice to find is a "build tree" like you see for tech advances in video games.
Give a nice organic growth to an area and establish "realistic" trade dependencies.

Yeah, if you look at my notes above you'll see a simple build tree I derived from Fields of Blood: The Book of War. Various settlement sizes unlock more advanced mercantile & magical resources. You can put a trading post anywhere, but you need a town for a merchant's guild.
Title: Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: Greentongue on April 08, 2021, 11:52:21 AM
Do you track families? Noble or common? What about personal names?
Has it ever mattered during a game which family a NPC was a member of?

Are there resource constraints in your setting? If so, how does the population deal with them?
Trade? Raiding?

I assume there are hostiles about. Do they impact day to day life directly or just as a game event?
Title: Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: Greentongue on April 08, 2021, 11:53:28 AM
Yeah, if you look at my notes above you'll see a simple build tree I derived from Fields of Blood: The Book of War. Various settlement sizes unlock more advanced mercantile & magical resources. You can put a trading post anywhere, but you need a town for a merchant's guild.
Going to have to add that to my reading list promptly. Thanks for the tip on it.
Title: Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: RandyB on April 08, 2021, 12:09:42 PM
Go back to the source.

Tony Bath's Setting Up A Wargames Campaign.

It's not a campaign rules system, it's principles, concepts, and examples derived from his own infamous Hyborean wargame campaign. And it reminds you of why you want to do this in the first place - awesome gaming for you and your players.
Title: Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: S'mon on April 08, 2021, 12:23:39 PM
Yeah, if you look at my notes above you'll see a simple build tree I derived from Fields of Blood: The Book of War. Various settlement sizes unlock more advanced mercantile & magical resources. You can put a trading post anywhere, but you need a town for a merchant's guild.
Going to have to add that to my reading list promptly. Thanks for the tip on it.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/691/Fields-of-Blood-The-Book-of-War

It's 3e-era and a little bit too rules heavy & magic-heavy for my tastes, but I find it very inspirational and often go back to it. Cool art, too!
Title: Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: S'mon on April 08, 2021, 12:29:27 PM
Do you track families? Noble or common? What about personal names?
Has it ever mattered during a game which family a NPC was a member of?

Are there resource constraints in your setting? If so, how does the population deal with them?
Trade? Raiding?

I assume there are hostiles about. Do they impact day to day life directly or just as a game event?

Yes there are families, noble and common, and they have names, and often NPC's family matters. :)
There are various hostiles of course, humanoid tribes, demon cults, etc etc.
The low population density means that resource constraints aren't a major factor in the local campaign area. They are in the densely populated heartlands of the kingdom around Lake Mogador, where Salvatore's FR9 notes that eg Polten & Ostel often clash.

Hm, you can see some of how it works in play by reading my game logs at http://frloudwater.blogspot.com/
Title: Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: Greentongue on April 08, 2021, 12:47:33 PM
Hm, you can see some of how it works in play by reading my game logs at http://frloudwater.blogspot.com/
SHINEY!!
:D
Title: Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: estar on April 08, 2021, 12:58:15 PM
I like to have a setting that functions on its own with or without the players interacting. So when they do, I know the ramifications.
Also, as a natural source of complications they can engage with.

I've used "An Echo Resounding" before as a system to do this and would like to discuss other options and how people made them work.

Where do you find people that are interested in that sort of thing and have experiences to share?
I prefer system that start with a design that rests how things worked in history. Then if it is a fantasy setting layers the magic on top of that. My personal system is a hodgepodge of material from History, Harn, and GURPS. A little from the Mythic Europe source material from Ars Magica. And more recently a bunch of stuff from Adventurer, Conqueror, King. In the Axioms Newsletter the authors explain the basis for their mechanics which allowed me to tweak and adapt them from first principles.

The foundation of what I do rests on agricultural productivity with various charts and lists about how long it take to clear, build, and grow stuff. From that I can figure out the surplus. From that I can figure out the sizes of a region's military forces and any other extras like magic school, temples and the like.

I try to reduce everything into straightforward mechanics no more complex than the world building stuff in Traveller.

I highly recommend Harn Manor for when a player owns an estate. Although I am going for something much simpler for my rules.
ACKS for something easy to manage an entire realm.
I like the Pathfinder 1e Campaign Book for construction as it about OK if you spend X then this is what you can get, this is how it helps you, and this is roughly the size the result will be. I am in the processing of adapting it to my own rules.

The idea behind my approach is to learn to detail. Figure out the range, figure out the average. Then boil that down into set of charts. I leave the option of going backwards to more details if that what the players want to do.

Players want to know  couple of things
1) How long it will take to build
2) How much it will take to build
3) What it will take to maintain
4) What income do I get from it.
5) What benefits other than income are there?
6) The rough size so a map can be draw of what was built.

If you can do all that without a spreadsheet than you nailed it.







Title: Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: Greentongue on April 08, 2021, 01:48:19 PM
Talespire is going to Early Release soon and the Low Detail City maps have me inspired to build up a town from just a camp.
https://talesbazaar.com/prefab/1356
Title: Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: Greentongue on April 08, 2021, 02:34:49 PM
Want to build a town up visually and yet functionally.    YOU ARE HERE
If not a base of operations, a blueprint for building out a play area.

Give a running start to "living" area to grow from play.
Title: Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: Greentongue on April 08, 2021, 06:01:47 PM
I see things like Guildhall requires Large Town pop. but nothing about wood or stone.
Do you factor these in to determine what most building are constructed from.
Wattle and daub verses solid wood for example.
Would give unique visuals as well as a feeling for their durability.
Title: Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: S'mon on April 08, 2021, 06:26:53 PM
I see things like Guildhall requires Large Town pop. but nothing about wood or stone.
Do you factor these in to determine what most building are constructed from.
Wattle and daub verses solid wood for example.
Would give unique visuals as well as a feeling for their durability.

No - and the prices are not really building construction prices, they are the price of setting up a mercantile, religious or arcane organisation. Probably the merchants/church/wizards pay for most of the actual building work.
Title: Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: Greentongue on April 09, 2021, 10:24:08 AM
I highly recommend Harn Manor for when a player owns an estate. Although I am going for something much simpler for my rules.

I often hear "Harn Manor" suggested. Is it very in the weeds or does it have levels of detail that you can adjust to your needs?
While I'd love to get grainy with details, it's not practical I my view to do that for actual gaming. Unless of course you write a program to handle it for you. If doing that, might as well play "Foundation" (https://www.polymorph.games/) instead.
Title: Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: estar on April 09, 2021, 10:55:15 AM
I highly recommend Harn Manor for when a player owns an estate. Although I am going for something much simpler for my rules.

I often hear "Harn Manor" suggested. Is it very in the weeds or does it have levels of detail that you can adjust to your needs?

It about as detailed as building a Classic (3 LBB) Traveller Starship and using the Trade and Economic rules from Classic Traveller (3 LBB).

There is a spreadsheet style form but not particularly complex. There are two levels of details in the mechanics. The more detailed approach just breaks out what actually planted as crop and what is actually herded as pasture. The less detail approach just track crop and pasture acreage.

But Harnmanor isn't just about being an economic engine. It also allows you to quickly track who are the manor tenants are. And that is coupled with an event table that drive the adventures that surrounds owning and managing a manor.

But like Traveller and managing a fleet of ships. If you want to manage a barony or a kingdom then it is too in the weeds at that level. For that all you need is the total acerage of the individual estates, the type of obligation they owe which is usually one of three things (directly owned, tenant, or religious). That will get you a tally in terms of troops and income.

But like Traveller commerce if you focus on one ship or in one estates than like the classic Traveller rules Harnmanor is your ticket.




Title: Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: Greentongue on April 09, 2021, 12:38:13 PM
Harn looks better every time I look at it.

Has anyone done domain level play?  Is Play by Post the best format for that do you think?
Running something in parallel with character level detail?
Title: Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: estar on April 09, 2021, 01:04:40 PM
Here what a Harnmanor worksheet looks like. In the upper right the breakdown of crops and livestock types is optional.  All the number are in d for denarius for silver penny with the same as a D&D silver piece. A common laborer can earn up to 24d a month. A longsword costs around 135d.

In general to support a Knight, a squire, their horses, and three yeoman (footmen & archers) requires at least a manor with 1,500 acres. Typically manors range from 1,200 acres to 3,000 acres. The worksheet is actually for a monastery so the individuals are less expensive to upkeep but there more of them.

Accompany this is a roster of all your tenants. So referee rolls each year to see what happens to each tenants. Sometime is good and you get a bit extra and sometime it bad. Mostly neutral. The events are generic enough is that you can roleplay out why things happen the way they do resulting in adventures.

And it is suitable for play by post due to the large amount of downtime if the main focus of the character is managing a manor. For face to face or VTT play stuff tends to happen one every handful or so of sessions. A session is spent focused on managing things.  Some stuff happens as result, then the next few session are about dealing with that stuff or furthering any plans the PCs have.

(https://i.imgur.com/vlyHVyJ.jpg)
Title: Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: S'mon on April 09, 2021, 02:17:56 PM
Harn looks better every time I look at it.

Has anyone done domain level play?  Is Play by Post the best format for that do you think?
Running something in parallel with character level detail?

I do a lot of domain level play, but it's all from the character POV, I'm not doing spreadsheet analysis & data entry as a separate game. :)

I like Mentzer's domain system (expanded on in ACKS) because it's designed to support character play, not be a separate game like Birthright or Fields of Blood.
Title: Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: Greentongue on April 10, 2021, 05:34:24 PM
That sheet has very good info at your fingertips.
Harn is certainly grounded in science as far as I can tell. If I can't tell then I guess it doesn't matter if it is not.

Does present a quandary about who "Adventurers" are and the whole "Murder Hobo" aspect of a lot of the games I hear about.

Noble level play is a whole different "ball game" than things the "common folk" would be doing.
So many interesting levels available.
Title: Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: Premier on April 10, 2021, 07:56:52 PM
One option you might want to look at is Bulls and Mine Rights, the domain management system from Melan/Gabor Lux's Sword & Magic game. It is highly abstract, easy to use, works on a village/town/city level, and is focused on the fundamental question of how much tax money you get and how much money you must spend on varous developments. There's no official English version of it (Sword & Magic 2nd ed. is coming, though, and it will be in English), but there's an unofficial abridged (notes-style) translation here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TJFLEEStg2c8taC8twjZ-HKthuMZd2ewtD1nvk7E2R4/edit?usp=sharing (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TJFLEEStg2c8taC8twjZ-HKthuMZd2ewtD1nvk7E2R4/edit?usp=sharing)
Title: Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: Greentongue on April 10, 2021, 10:53:05 PM
Do you detail the neighboring "manors" and if so, how many of them? Is 6 a good number? As in each hex side direction.

Are the detailed areas other manors or "Points of Interest"?
Title: Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: Greentongue on April 10, 2021, 11:01:26 PM
One option you might want to look at is Bulls and Mine Rights, the domain management system from Melan/Gabor Lux's Sword & Magic game. It is highly abstract, easy to use, works on a village/town/city level, and is focused on the fundamental question of how much tax money you get and how much money you must spend on varous developments.
It is interesting but I think the development specifics might matter a bit more as characters can see or otherwise interact with it.
While it might not need to be updated unless characters do interact, I think an initial detailed layout would be useful.

Harn Manor seems like a good choice but maybe overkill?
Title: Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: Chris24601 on April 11, 2021, 02:36:54 PM
I’ve tried damnably near every realm/domain management system out there and have honestly come to the conclusion that not one of them beats a GM with a list of domain-related events (rolled randomly or selected) and a system that includes pricing for hirelings, henchmen, mercenaries and structures.

Everything else tries to add things like types of domain actions and abstracted resources, but half the fun from my experience is having to roleplay through the problems with whatever actual resources you have; not turning to a mini-game that only partially interfaces with the main rules and limits how and in what fashion the PCs are allowed to solve the problem.

For example; how many systems have sort of taxation rules with set brackets (low, medium and high typically) that abstract it across the population?

But actual PCs might decide to selectively tax, go on a dungeon delve, confiscate property from certain individuals (basically what happened with the Knights Templar), auction off some of their own assets, enfief some of their territory with yearly monetary fees replacing military service, or overtax their population by demanding more than the people can afford and get a revolt on their hands.

Basically, the more codified the domain rules become the more player-driven creative solutions that tend to lead to adventures get curtails because no rule set can cover every bit of insanity the players can conceive of.
Title: Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: Greentongue on April 11, 2021, 07:32:56 PM
What it certainly does in my mind is give real value to things.
How much effect does a cattle raid actually have to a manor and the people living their?
Will there be ripples throughout based on who owned which cows and that the raid happened at all?

What is a reasonable reward for making the forest safe again?

Is this actually the beginning of "The Hero's Story"?
Title: Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: estar on April 11, 2021, 10:32:56 PM
Do you detail the neighboring "manors" and if so, how many of them? Is 6 a good number? As in each hex side direction.

Are the detailed areas other manors or "Points of Interest"?

I read a couple of books on historical settlement patterns. If land use is centered along irrigation or waters then you get rows strips to maximize who has access to the water. If land use is more spread out it becomes more a triangular web broken up by terrain here and there. Not unlike what you would get with following a hexagon grid. Just keep in mind the transport advantage using water versus is an order of magnitude better (10 to 1).
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ZLASsMVPBbk/W2hmoa5V3UI/AAAAAAAAQlw/HGyeyVvAnLwGTKhqZz7MUNkZEAgJvvm6wCLcBGAs/s320/Virdistan%2BRegion%2BRev%2B03.jpg)

Full Image
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ZLASsMVPBbk/W2hmoa5V3UI/AAAAAAAAQlw/HGyeyVvAnLwGTKhqZz7MUNkZEAgJvvm6wCLcBGAs/s1600/Virdistan%2BRegion%2BRev%2B03.jpg

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-NQGCIZAOr94/W2hmzbPJjzI/AAAAAAAAQl8/i1zcCWiuY2Qk-Se0kl8NHe48-LBEFTgPwCLcBGAs/s320/Lenap%252C%2BRegion%252C%2BKeys%2Bof%2BShadow.jpg)

Full Image
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-NQGCIZAOr94/W2hmzbPJjzI/AAAAAAAAQl8/i1zcCWiuY2Qk-Se0kl8NHe48-LBEFTgPwCLcBGAs/s1600/Lenap%252C%2BRegion%252C%2BKeys%2Bof%2BShadow.jpg

A post on mapping farms versus Manors/estates

(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/_mFjy4EWzmtg/S4Sjy0tZEMI/AAAAAAAAAuo/c-bjfCBRkI4/s320/Farm.jpg)(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/_mFjy4EWzmtg/S4SjzBtsucI/AAAAAAAAAuw/4VfhrSeWsrM/s320/Manor.jpg)

https://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2010/02/mapping-manors-vs-farms.html
Title: Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: Greentongue on April 12, 2021, 07:09:11 AM
Very interesting!
Thanks for the links as well.  As was brought up in the comments, war has an effect on the distribution of people.
While you might think that having a fortified place would be a good thing, it takes far less time to destroy one than to build one.

People still have to eat so killing "the sheep" is not wise unless you are an external conqueror and look to replace or remove food production from an area.   
Title: Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: Reckall on April 12, 2021, 10:37:46 AM
(Waves)

Sorry if I come late, but wouldn't "Forgotten Realms: Power of Faerun" be of use?

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Power_of_Faer%C3%BBn

What about "Birthright"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthright_(campaign_setting)
Title: Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: Opaopajr on April 12, 2021, 11:36:56 AM
I will echo Chris' exhortation to focus on the playable adventure aspect than the abstractions. The world has several video games that do this 4X gaming far better than any human can process in a timely manner, with varying degrees of quality. The real stand out function of TTRPGs is getting the PCs to intimately place their imprint on the world, hence focus on the intimacy TTRPGs can provide versus abstract juggling a CPU can provide.

In practice it is better to think of those Domain Management abstract mechanics as NPC Automated Programs to juggle campaign input. The challenge is you also have to provide a running script for your NPCs, and that includes a General Events Calendar (weather, acts of god/s, surprise hordes from off the map, etc.). That is the step most forget -- the input -- as GMs think they can fudge it on the fly. No, moments for improv *will occur* naturally in TTRPGs, but those abstract Domain Management mechanics need input to work with so as to support you when you *have to* improvise.

If you can accomplish these NPC scripts with defined motivations, goals, and attitude responses beforehand, fantastic. If you habitually wait until the last minute for inputs, flirting with GM burnout disaster. If you focus only on NPC scripts interacting with domain programs, why play a slow processor 4X game? Play up to TTRPGs' strengths and keep the bookkeeping tools mostly GM-Facing; the Player-Facing Domain Tools are to bypass elements that are uninteresting to both sides of the screen. To continuously bypass the roleplaying aspect means your players should really play a different game.
Title: Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: estar on April 12, 2021, 12:46:10 PM
What most players care about is how much gold they earn, what resources they have, and how many folks they command. Everything else is a detail to get those numbers. And interest in those details vary while in pursuit of their goal of trashing the setting.

Title: Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: Greentongue on April 12, 2021, 02:40:34 PM
What most players care about is how much gold they earn, what resources they have, and how many folks they command. Everything else is a detail to get those numbers. And interest in those details vary while in pursuit of their goal of trashing the setting.
I suspect Other Lords interfering with their plans of world domination can be made interesting.
Trying not to just handwave opposition but have a structure in place seems like it could be useful.

Not directly playing against the GM but against Other Lords that are in the same framework.
Title: Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: amacris on April 12, 2021, 05:50:24 PM
I like to have a setting that functions on its own with or without the players interacting. So when they do, I know the ramifications.
Also, as a natural source of complications they can engage with.

I've used "An Echo Resounding" before as a system to do this and would like to discuss other options and how people made them work.

Where do you find people that are interested in that sort of thing and have experiences to share?

ACKS has already been recommended to you but as the game's designer I figured I would chime in. Based on what you've said in this thread, I would recommend to you this product:
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/194008/Axioms-Issue-3

Axioms Issue 3 is
For kingdom/realm level play it has these articles:

1) Strongholds and Domains: A revised approach to domains for faster, easier play. This is a complete re-tooling of the domain rules in the ACKS Core Rules. The revised rules are more elegant and more robust, while also less complex.

2) Separating Land and Lordship: Rules for domains of governors and landowners. By default, ACKS assumes that domains are ruled by kings/lords who both own and govern. This article allows you to have separate land owners and governors.

3) Senatus Consultum Ultimum: Rules for parliaments and senates. By default, ACKS assumes that domains are ruled by individual lords. This article allows you to set up a senate that the ruler has to consult in order to govern. It has rules for Senatorial intrigue with factions, diplomacy, bribery, etc. The senate rules tie into the rules for the thief endgame (hijinks) so your thieves' guild can slander, bribe, and coerce senators, etc.

4) Wandering into War: A system of domain encounters to keep rulers on their guard. This article lets you randomly determine when, where, and how a domain is attacked by enemies. It takes into account the domain's population density, terrain type, and position relative to other friendly domains.

For manorial- and local-play, the Axioms magazine includes:
5) Of Coins and Commerce: Comments and context on the economy of the Adventurer Conqueror King System. This explains the economic basis for the game, including things like "how much coin is circulating," "what rate of profit could I get from an investment," and so on.

6) The Economics of Peasant Families: What Does life hold for those who till the land? This is ACKS's equivalent to Harn Manor. It breaks down the game's economics at the level of the single farm.

7) Flocks and Herds and Silver and Gold: Calculating the returns from livestock in ACKS. This allows you to simulate pastoralists and herders at a nitty-gritty level.

If you buy just one product for ACKS, buy this one. It'll be the future basis of ACKS Second Edition if I ever write one.

Title: Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: amacris on April 12, 2021, 05:55:04 PM
Everything else tries to add things like types of domain actions and abstracted resources, but half the fun from my experience is having to roleplay through the problems with whatever actual resources you have; not turning to a mini-game that only partially interfaces with the main rules and limits how and in what fashion the PCs are allowed to solve the problem.

For example; how many systems have sort of taxation rules with set brackets (low, medium and high typically) that abstract it across the population?

But actual PCs might decide to selectively tax, go on a dungeon delve, confiscate property from certain individuals (basically what happened with the Knights Templar), auction off some of their own assets, enfief some of their territory with yearly monetary fees replacing military service, or overtax their population by demanding more than the people can afford and get a revolt on their hands.

Basically, the more codified the domain rules become the more player-driven creative solutions that tend to lead to adventures get curtails because no rule set can cover every bit of insanity the players can conceive of.

Out of curiosity, have you tried ACKS's rules as presented in Axioms 3 and Domains at War? Because it can handle everything you're describing above, and more.

I agree with you that most domain rules create mini-games that don't only partially interface with the rest of the game. And I think that's a huge problem. But I've specifically developed and expanded ACKS to address that. ACKS lets you segue between adventurer and domain ruler seamlessly. At present, the game can handle all of the below:

selectively tax - yes
go on a dungeon delve - yes, as well as rules to handle this abstractly if desired
confiscate property from certain individuals - yes
auction off some of their own assets - yes
enfief some of their territory with yearly monetary fees replacing military service - yes
overtax their population by demanding more than the people can afford and get a revolt on their hands - yes

(To be clear ACKS Core Rules couldn't do all of the above, but the system has had 10 years of development.)
Title: Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: Chris24601 on April 12, 2021, 09:49:55 PM
Out of curiosity, have you tried ACKS's rules as presented in Axioms 3 and Domains at War? Because it can handle everything you're describing above, and more.
Not really. I looked at the free starter version of Domains at War and it just wouldn't be of use to me. Its focus is on medieval-style organization and technology with rare magic while my own fantasy worlds are entirely in the "Thundarr the Barbarian" mold.

Basically, I need rules that can handle things like wyvern, hydra and centaur cavalry, airships, steamboats, cities built into the ruins of a fallen magitech utopia, winged elves, dwarven cyborgs, companies of warcasters, minutemen with arcane-powered rifles, siege cannons, weather control, combat transmutations and instant (though not free) construction using magic, Godzilla-sized war golems and teleportation rings, not to mention your normal fantasy dragons, giants, trolls, orcs, goblins, ogres, etc.

And not just combat, but all the other things those and related items open up outside of combat. Germ theory, the scientific method, and 19th century farming are common in my current setting (relics of the previous age). The amount of labor needed for farming is only about half the population and with magic weather atop the farming techniques crop yields are four times that of the medieval period.

Ultimately though, even if it did offer all of that, it still looked like a lot of bookkeeping for little gain relative to my present system of deciding upon periodic effects and letting the players deal with them organically as they come across them.
Title: Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: estar on April 12, 2021, 10:41:32 PM
Well for combat if it stated out for any edition of D&D, Battlesystem 1e will handle it. Why despite it being a AD&D 1e product? Because the heart of it is a dice rolling engine that design to tell you how much damage X folks do if they have Y chance to hit, and doing Z damage. As long as it involves rolling a 1d20 and other dice Battlesystem 1e can handle it.

Title: Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: Pat on April 12, 2021, 10:59:59 PM
Well for combat if it stated out for any edition of D&D, Battlesystem 1e will handle it. Why despite it being a AD&D 1e product? Because the heart of it is a dice rolling engine that design to tell you how much damage X folks do if they have Y chance to hit, and doing Z damage. As long as it involves rolling a 1d20 and other dice Battlesystem 1e can handle it.
Agree on BS 1e. It's a remarkable abstraction of AD&D 1st edition, and would work fine with any other old school edition.

Note the version of BATTLESYSTEM on DTRPG is the 2e version, not the 1e version. (Presumably because a boxed set with 800 unpunched chits was hard to find.) I'm not familiar with the 2e version, but it's apparently a very different game. I don't know if it would work as well.

War Machine from BECMI is also easy to adapt, but it's a different and more abstract system rather than D&D scaled up. It's more about moving around armies on a kingdom-level map than fighting with miniatures on a tactical map.

Title: Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: estar on April 13, 2021, 12:18:16 AM
Well for combat if it stated out for any edition of D&D, Battlesystem 1e will handle it. Why despite it being a AD&D 1e product? Because the heart of it is a dice rolling engine that design to tell you how much damage X folks do if they have Y chance to hit, and doing Z damage. As long as it involves rolling a 1d20 and other dice Battlesystem 1e can handle it.
Agree on BS 1e. It's a remarkable abstraction of AD&D 1st edition, and would work fine with any other old school edition.

Note the version of BATTLESYSTEM on DTRPG is the 2e version, not the 1e version. (Presumably because a boxed set with 800 unpunched chits was hard to find.) I'm not familiar with the 2e version, but it's apparently a very different game. I don't know if it would work as well.

War Machine from BECMI is also easy to adapt, but it's a different and more abstract system rather than D&D scaled up. It's more about moving around armies on a kingdom-level map than fighting with miniatures on a tactical map.
Battlesystem 1e also works with 3e and 5e quite well. Just need a formula conversion to work with ascending AC. https://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2013/08/adapting-1st-edition-battlesystem-to.html

Yeah it stinks they only have the 2e version on Drivethru
Title: Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: S'mon on April 13, 2021, 02:57:21 AM
I like to have a setting that functions on its own with or without the players interacting. So when they do, I know the ramifications.
Also, as a natural source of complications they can engage with.

I've used "An Echo Resounding" before as a system to do this and would like to discuss other options and how people made them work.

Where do you find people that are interested in that sort of thing and have experiences to share?

ACKS has already been recommended to you but as the game's designer I figured I would chime in. Based on what you've said in this thread, I would recommend to you this product:
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/194008/Axioms-Issue-3

Axioms Issue 3 is
For kingdom/realm level play it has these articles:

1) Strongholds and Domains: A revised approach to domains for faster, easier play. This is a complete re-tooling of the domain rules in the ACKS Core Rules. The revised rules are more elegant and more robust, while also less complex.

2) Separating Land and Lordship: Rules for domains of governors and landowners. By default, ACKS assumes that domains are ruled by kings/lords who both own and govern. This article allows you to have separate land owners and governors.

3) Senatus Consultum Ultimum: Rules for parliaments and senates. By default, ACKS assumes that domains are ruled by individual lords. This article allows you to set up a senate that the ruler has to consult in order to govern. It has rules for Senatorial intrigue with factions, diplomacy, bribery, etc. The senate rules tie into the rules for the thief endgame (hijinks) so your thieves' guild can slander, bribe, and coerce senators, etc.

4) Wandering into War: A system of domain encounters to keep rulers on their guard. This article lets you randomly determine when, where, and how a domain is attacked by enemies. It takes into account the domain's population density, terrain type, and position relative to other friendly domains.

For manorial- and local-play, the Axioms magazine includes:
5) Of Coins and Commerce: Comments and context on the economy of the Adventurer Conqueror King System. This explains the economic basis for the game, including things like "how much coin is circulating," "what rate of profit could I get from an investment," and so on.

6) The Economics of Peasant Families: What Does life hold for those who till the land? This is ACKS's equivalent to Harn Manor. It breaks down the game's economics at the level of the single farm.

7) Flocks and Herds and Silver and Gold: Calculating the returns from livestock in ACKS. This allows you to simulate pastoralists and herders at a nitty-gritty level.

If you buy just one product for ACKS, buy this one. It'll be the future basis of ACKS Second Edition if I ever write one.

Cheers Alex - have purchased & printing now! :)
My setting (FR Damara 1359 DR) is a feudal kingdom with powerful regional nobles and a relatively weak centre. The various PC realms are currently at manorial/sub-Baronial level, but at least two groups are looking to establish Baronies. I hope to run the setting for many years so should be getting into high politics etc over time; relations with the local Ducal Court are already important.
Title: Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: S'mon on April 13, 2021, 06:58:17 AM
Cheers Alex - have purchased & printing now! :)
My setting (FR Damara 1359 DR) is a feudal kingdom with powerful regional nobles and a relatively weak centre. The various PC realms are currently at manorial/sub-Baronial level, but at least two groups are looking to establish Baronies. I hope to run the setting for many years so should be getting into high politics etc over time; relations with the local Ducal Court are already important.

I've gone over it now - I like the revised domain size and morale/loyalty system a lot and will likely be using it, along with a lot of the other stuff, in my 5e game. I think the 75% economic extraction looks too high, so I'm keeping the baseline production numbers based off 1 sp/person/day subsistence (which I already use), but halving income (& required expenditures) so income of 1gp/family/month becomes 1 sp/person/month. My own maps are 2 mile & 10 mile hexes rather than 1.5 and 6 mile, but it looks like 10 2 mile hexes is pretty much equal to 1 6 mile hex so planning to use that for conversion.
Title: Re: Where to Discuss Domain Level Play?
Post by: Greentongue on April 13, 2021, 09:37:14 AM
ACKS has already been recommended to you but as the game's designer I figured I would chime in. Based on what you've said in this thread, I would recommend to you this product:
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/194008/Axioms-Issue-3

Axioms Issue 3 is
For kingdom/realm level play it has these articles:
...

If you buy just one product for ACKS, buy this one. It'll be the future basis of ACKS Second Edition if I ever write one.

Yes, can't talk about Domains without mentioning ACKS.  Thanks for that.
Will certainly look at AI3. 
Having a higher level of abstraction that can be drilled down if needed, may be the best of both.