Obviously, this is a subjective question. I am unsure that we will even come to a general agreement of what is Rules Light vs. Rules Medium vs. Rules Heavy.

Please give 2 examples of what you consider ....

RULES LIGHT:

RULES MEDIUM:

RULES HEAVY:

And then talk about what is the dividing issue that FOR YOU allows you to define your examples as such.

Quote from: Spinachcat;527475Obviously, this is a subjective question. I am unsure that we will even come to a general agreement of what is Rules Light vs. Rules Medium vs. Rules Heavy.

Please give 2 examples of what you consider ....

RULES LIGHT:

RULES MEDIUM:

RULES HEAVY:

And then talk about what is the dividing issue that FOR YOU allows you to define your examples as such.

But you should also consider that something can be rules heavy but contents light. For many only talks about the rules of a game, but the rules should be divided into mechanics and methods.
FATE is mechanics light but method heavy, and the wh40k games are mechanics heavy but method light.

RULES LIGHT: Fully statted character fits on an index card.

RULES MEDIUM: Fully statted character fits on a sheet of printing paper.

RULES HEAVY: Fully statted character fits on multiple pages of printing paper.

This is a rule of thumb, of course. My great dividing line is: if I am reasonably familiar with the rules, can I run a game without referencing them during the sessions more than one or two times?

Off the top of my head:

RULES LIGHT: Barbarians of Lemuria; Microlite20; Risus; Wushu

RULES MEDIUM: TSR-era D&D; BRP as presented in CoC, Stormbringer or OpenQuest; Palladium; Savage Worlds; Storyteller as presented in oWoD and nWoD; WFRP 2e

RULES HEAVY: BRP as presented in most editions of RuneQuest; D&D 3e and 4e; GURPS; Rolemaster; Storyteller as presented in Exalted; Traveller, GDW or Mongoose; W40K Rogue Trader

This is of course highly subjective, and familiarity plays a huge role. Some games have a lot of peculiar subsystems, and yet I've ranked them "medium" where games with unified resolution systems got the "heavy" label, because I know the subsystems from years of gaming (TSR-era D&D, Palladium, Savage Worlds). It's all about fiddly bits, I think; Traveller might be rules medium if you never set off to build a ship or broker a deal, both of which use rather fiddly subsystems I'm not terribly familiar with.

The one thing that rankles me is character creation. I've all but given up on GURPS and Palladium because flipping the book back and forth looking for starting percentages for skills, or for Disadvantages or whatever, gets on my nerves (we usually only have one copy).

Quote from: Spinachcat;527475... Please give 2 examples of what you consider ....

And then talk about what is the dividing issue that FOR YOU allows you to define your examples as such.

RULES LIGHT: OMNI system (Talislanta, Hellas), Genre Diversion 3.

RULES MEDIUM: (scale) True20/Unisystem - BRP -  Pathfinder/Eclipse Phase

RULES HEAVY: GURPS, HERO, Rolemaster.

Issue 1: Character Options. This determines how fast character creation is, the amount of potential balance/abuse issues, and the learning curve to understand all the moving parts for playing a character.

I have put about 12+ hours into my recent Old West GURPS character. I supposed I didn't have to, but I had a concept and moved things around until it fit. I can make a 0e D&D character in under 15 minutes. I can make a Talislanta or Hellas character in 30 (Hellas uses a life path...).

Issue 2: Resolution mechanics and memorization. How easy is it to remember how the rolling works? Target Numbers? Levels of Success? Tables to Reference? The more fiddly-bits in this area, the heavier it gets in rules.

OMNI uses a d20 for everything and a simple resolution table that fits on the character sheet (lighter). GURPS (heavier) has margin of success and failure, margin of victory, and uses the margins for determining level of success for certain things; you can use your skill level, default skill level, relative skill level in different situations. I don't consider it difficult, but it is more complicated than OMNI.

Issue 3: Combat. How many steps does it take to resolve one person's turn? Does it play better with grid/minis or are they needed? How many things are we tracking? What is the average length (real time) of a combat in the game? How do modifiers work? How do we describe the combat on a scale gritty/adventurous/cinematic/heroic/epic? How many options do you have in combat?

Generally, the more options the longer the turns take. The longer the turns, the more rules we're dealing with. Also, grittier systems tend to have more modifiers and rules (getting heavier) where more heroic ones hand-wave stuff for speed of play and coolness (moving towards lighter). OMNI has some suggested modifiers for difficulty. GURPS has calculations for distance, speed for ranged attacks, modifiers for having good equipment or the absence of it, familiarity with what you're skilled with (or not), etc. The rules medium folks have a healthy balance of required and suggested modifiers. Now, with a rules heavy game, you have LOTS of ideas on how to modify a challenge or what could apply, where the lighter you go, the more GM fiat is generally required.

Issue 4: Magic/Powers. How complicated is it to pick them? Can you design you're own? How many moving parts are there to a power/spell? What is the scope of change/impact magic/powers have on the setting? How many ready-to-run powers/spells are there to pick from? Is there a unified system or a "eyeballed" system of balance?

HERO is effects based and you design all the powers in a custom fashion. There are 500+ pages of rules to cover an enormous breadth of options. in True20 you pick ready-to-roll powers as you do in OMNI. A rules medium game may offer you options to customize the powers list, where a light game tends to have a quick list.

Issue 5: Equipment/Technology. Are we measuring encumbrance? Dollars and coins? What kind of things can a character buy (or would want to buy)? What impact on abilities/effectiveness does equipment have?

OMNI system doesn't really cover equipment except for stuff that is readily impacting play. True20 uses a wealth system to abstract buying stuff. GURPS has $ values for everything, weight, bulk, min STR, etc. In OMNI equipment is an extension of a character's ability and you are generally considered to have common things. in GURPS, you have to list everything you have and certain skills are penalized when you don't have the right equipment. Or you can earn bonuses for having applicable equipment. Of course these are optional (you could just skip it), but it's in there. Shadowrun and Eclipse Phase are not only tracking equipment by the $ (as a character resource) but much of the equipment dramatically impacts character effectiveness. It's a sub system you work within that has the same complexity (IMHO) as the previous steps of figuring advantages/disadvantages. If equipment is assumed or hand waved were in light territory but when it's a system unto itself, we're leaning more on heavy side.

I could probably add tons more, but I'm tired and need a nap.

These terms are confusing, undefined, and entirely subjective. They also are overall generalities which do not reflect that a game can be considered Light, Medium, or Heavy in different areas - Chargen, Combat, Prep, Gear, Mini-games, Sub-systems, etc. can all have different "weight". I like to avoid the terms if I can.

-clash

Edit: Or you can read Trechiron's post! Durrr!

Rules Lite : Whispering Vault- index card is all that is needed

Rules Medium: TSR Dnd, WoD-lots of options

Rules Heavy: Wotc Dnd, Rolemaster, FantasyCraft, 40k- do I need to?

I am ok with any level of rules as long as I am familiar with them.

Rules Light: Other than perhaps the first session, the rulebook is never or almost never consulted during play. Examples: Other Worlds

Rules Medium: The group can eyeball most situations but need to look things up in the rulebook a few times per session. Examples: AD&D 2e, Vampire.

Rules Heavy: Even for experienced players, the entire game must be conducted with a rulebook in hand. Examples: Rolemaster, D&D 3e and 4e.

Quote from: Spinachcat;527475Obviously, this is a subjective question. I am unsure that we will even come to a general agreement of what is Rules Light vs. Rules Medium vs. Rules Heavy.

Please give 2 examples of what you consider ....

RULES LIGHT: Risus & Over The Edge

Broadly defined characters, only a few simple rules, and a lot of GM interpretation of modifiers and results.  Characters can be defined with a few lines of text.

RULES MEDIUM: Warhammer FRP 1e & Classic Traveller

More objective rules and detailed character definition but most of the rules still simple enough to remember during play.  Character generation takes less than an hour.

RULES HEAVY: Hero System & D&D 3.x

Very objective rules that answer how to resolve most in-game actions with a minimum of GM interpretation.  Rules complex enough that books or reference sheets are often consulted during play.  Character generation can take hours, especially with point-build games.

rules light
- freeform
- wild west gunfights

rules heavy
- using hard data with Newton's equations of motion
- solving equations from relativity


rules medium
- everything else

It's more subjective that those though.

For instance GURPS Lite or GURPS dialed down is at the border of Light and Medium.  GURPS dialed all the way up is a decent trip heavier than just simulating everything with direct quantum mechanics at the sub molecular level.

In play, Rolemaster is rules lite and chart heavy.  The rules are actually pretty minimal because the charts do all the heavy listing.  Character Generation runs from rules medium to rules heavy in the case of RMSS with all the switches and dials thrown wide.  Still simpler than GURPS at the top end but never as consistant or functional or well thought out either.  (I'm looking at you Cold weather rules in GM Law)

On the other hand D&D's class abilities and spells are each a rule unto themselves but most people wouldn't put BXCMI in the same category as GURPS or Rolemaster.

Ah well, there's always Aftermath and Space Opera.  

It may be the best way to judge this stuff would be to throw the books on a scale.

IIRC, Space Opera is more rules incomprehensible than rules heavy.

Quote from: Marleycat;527516Rules Lite : Whispering Vault- index card is all that is needed

I'd never thought of WV being 'rules lite' but now that you mention it I suppose it is.

For rules medium I'd say Savage Worlds, Earthdawn, WFRP, old D&D

When I think 'rules heavy' I think of Phoenix Command/Living Steel.

Like has been said, systems like GURPS and BRP depend on how many options you turn on/off. The way I've played them at least, both are pretty go once the characters are rolled and ready. The books don't get opened very often.
I'd consider how often the rules interject into the game... even if they're simple, are there dice rolls for everything or does the GM adjudicate a lot of what happens?
Also, how much the rules 'fade into the background'... how 'gamey' the system is.
I've found I prefer a lot less 'game' than some people.

Rules Light:
BESM 1E, OVA, Risus, Buffy: TVS, Hearts & Souls, High Valor, Icons, Truth & Justice, Marvel Superhero Adventure Game (SAGA), Dragonlance Saga, Star Wars 1E (D6), Talislanta 4E, OD&D

Rules Medium:
Marvel Superheroes (FASERIP), Hellas (OMNI System), Most other D6 iterations, D&D Cyclopedia, Witchcraft/Armageddon, Mongoose Traveller, Call of Cthulhu, Shadowrun 4E, Ars Magica. Mutants & Masterminds 1E, DC Heroes (Mayfair), AD&D 1E/2E

Rules Heavy:
Aftermath, Gurps, Hero System, Mutants & Mastermind 2E, Exalted, Alpha Omega, D&D4E

As noted before, it's a very subjective matter - often based on the amount of RPGs you know/had played.

For example - back in the days that I had known pretty much only 3e and Warhammer 1e, it was rather obvious to me that Warhammer would be the rule - lite system. Nowadays...I guess it'd be medium crunch.

For me, the key elements to distinguish between a rules - lite vs rules heavy system are:

1) How long will it take for me to create an NPC from scratch?
2) How often do I need to reference from handbook during game?
3) Amount of very situation - specific rules that I'd need to memorise.