Quote from: Black Vulmea;953137If you're defining 'roleplaying' as 'deep characterization' or 'talking in funny voices,' perhaps

Actually, even then he'd be wrong.

Which should surprise NOBODY, considering the source.

Quote from: estar;953052Fine let's start a campaign, you are a 1st level Fighter out to seek fortune & glory. What do you do?

Where am I?
Am I alone?
What stuff do I have?
Is there breathable air?
Am I currently on fire?
How did I get here?
Are there gremlins living in my hair?
Do I have hair?
What is the air speed velocity of a laden swallow (African or European)?

These are all important questions that need answers.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;953214Where am I?
Am I alone?
What stuff do I have?
Is there breathable air?
Am I currently on fire?
How did I get here?
Are there gremlins living in my hair?
Do I have hair?
What is the air speed velocity of a laden swallow (African or European)?

These are all important questions that need answers.

Sure they are absolutely important questions in order for a campaign to be launched. However the sum of the answers your question amounts to an initial context or if there action involved an inciting incident. Something that you criticized Chris24601 for.

Sure sandbox campaign are not stories, however elements of story and structure are useful for PLANNING out the motivations, schemes, and plots of the NPCs. Particularly in terms of characters, who they are and what drives them. What makes it different is that while for a story-game or a referee railroading this work is part of the execution of the campaign. In a sandbox it just a structure that will be altered, it useful in the same way a battle plan is useful to a general leading an army.

But as history shown if a general sticks to the plan regards of changing circumstances then likely he will lose the battle. A referee doing the equivalent is railroading his players.

I know i been harping on this recently but the difference between plot in the hand of a sandbox referee and in the hands of a railroading referee is that the sandbox referee is willing to let his players "trash" his work. If the referee isn't willing to do that or is not comfortable, then all this stuff we talk about isn't going to matter regardless of particulars.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;953214Where am I?
Am I alone?
What stuff do I have?
Is there breathable air?
Am I currently on fire?
How did I get here?
Are there gremlins living in my hair?
Do I have hair?
What is the air speed velocity of a laden swallow (African or European)?

These are all important questions that need answers.

Clearly a noob you are sir.  The most important question is "What is my favorite color?"

Quote from: estar;953218Sure they are absolutely important questions in order for a campaign to be launched. However the sum of the answers your question amounts to an initial context or if there action involved an inciting incident. Something that you criticized Chris24601 for.

Indeed. Games are not stories, but they do have certain story-like structures; such as a need for some type of action to provide an initial context to the actions of the main characters (i.e. the PC's).

Where did you come from and what's going on around me are just the most basic levels of that. Every inciting incident in fiction provides motivation to the main characters for what comes next. Similarly, in a sandbox the PC's need some sort of motivation, either in their backstory or at the start of the campaign to explain why they don't just take up some safe and mundane occupation that keeps a roof over their head and food in their bellies.

Take Jack and Beanstalk as a simple example. The inciting incident of that adventure was that his family's crushing poverty finally reached the point where he had to take the family cow to market and sell it so he and his mother wouldn't starve. If not for that incident then Jack has no motivation to do anything other than keep living on his farm and doing boring mundane stuff.

Why are the PC's willing to risk the dangerous and unknown wilds of the sandbox? Unless there's a reason behind that decision the campaign is going to feel hollow and gamist ("we're exploring the wilds and risking our lives because that's what the game is about.").

It can be something generic; you've been hired by a Lord to tame this uncharted land so that he might add it to his dominion. How do you proceed?

It could be something specific at the level of the party; your village was completely destroyed by raiders who made off with all the crops and the PC's are the only survivors; your starting equipment is everything of value you've managed to scavenge from your destroyed homes, but winter will be here soon, you don't have enough food to last out the winter if you stay and you also have no idea what lies beyond the edges of once-sleepy village. What do you do?

It could be something specific to each PC; the baker is looking for ingredients to a spell so that he and his wife can have a child, Cinderella has dreams of visiting the prince's festival, Red wants to deliver food to her sick grandmother and Jack has to go sell his beloved cow to keep himself and his mother from starving... so each has their reasons to go forth and risk the dangers of the Woods.

Now it could be that the GM just farms that work off to the players; each of you needs to figure out a reason whey they'd be willing to risk exploring the wilds around your starting community. But the GM needs to be clear about that because where I've seen a lot of sandboxes go awry is that the GM leaves this as an entirely unstated assumption on their part and the players just mill around waiting for something to happen.

Quote from: Chris24601;953380*edited for [strike]brevity[/strike] sanity*

And thank you for watching Pretentious Douchebag Theatre.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;953387And thank you for watching Pretentious Douchebag Theatre.

To translate from Vulmea-speak.  The problem is, in your examples you're still assuming a specific plot hook and there doesn't need to be one.
Because I'm not the first-born and I don't want to be a X.
Because I want to get rich or die trying.
Because I want some Grade-A trim.
Because bones heal and chicks dig scars.
Because that stupid Old Geezer keeps filling my head with stories about the Good Ol' Days.
Because I have that same gene that every explorer has.
Because my friend is going, what the fuck else am I going to do?
Because...why the fuck not?

It's not my job to tell a player how to dream up a character who has a motivation to get off his butt and leave the house. If you can't imagine what sort of person might want to explore the ruins of a lost tomb and see what lies beneath the soil, you have a piss-poor imagination, and spoon-feeding imagination to you is not going to cure that.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;953397It's not my job to tell a player how to dream up a character who has a motivation to get off his butt and leave the house. If you can't imagine what sort of person might want to explore the ruins of a lost tomb and see what lies beneath the soil, you have a piss-poor imagination, and spoon-feeding imagination to you is not going to cure that.

According to the Code set down by the pirates Morgan and Bartholomew.

The pirates clearly have their shit together.

Quote from: Chris24601;953380Take Jack and Beanstalk as a simple example. The inciting incident of that adventure was that his family's crushing poverty finally reached the point where he had to take the family cow to market and sell it so he and his mother wouldn't starve. If not for that incident then Jack has no motivation to do anything other than keep living on his farm and doing boring mundane stuff.

Why are the PC's willing to risk the dangerous and unknown wilds of the sandbox? Unless there's a reason behind that decision the campaign is going to feel hollow and gamist ("we're exploring the wilds and risking our lives because that's what the game is about.").

So, what motivates Jack, then?  Poverty may put Jack on the road with the cow, but it clearly doesn't motivate him to trade that cow to a sketchy traveler for beans that may or may not be magic.  The strange looking traveler doesn't claim that the beans will bring wealth (in some versions he claims they're magic, in others he does not), so the smart and safe choice would be to take the cow to market and sell it.  Why does Jack trade the cow for possibly magic beans instead?

The next morning, Jack sees the beanstalk outside his window and he decides to climb it.  Why does he do that?  It's not for riches or food, as Jack doesn't know those things are up there yet.  So what is it that actually motivates him?

In the story, those two decisions are the ones closest to the decision to become an adventurer, and Jack makes those decisions despite his poverty, not because of it.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;953397It's not my job to tell a player how to dream up a character who has a motivation to get off his butt and leave the house. If you can't imagine what sort of person might want to explore the ruins of a lost tomb and see what lies beneath the soil, you have a piss-poor imagination, and spoon-feeding imagination to you is not going to cure that.

Woah there fella.  There are charts out there that can easily tell me what I am suppose to imagine.   No need to get all uppity.    Charts telling someone what to do isn't exclusive to DMs.

Quote from: The Scythian;953456So, what motivates Jack, then?  Poverty may put Jack on the road with the cow, but it clearly doesn't motivate him to trade that cow to a sketchy traveler for beans that may or may not be magic.  The strange looking traveler doesn't claim that the beans will bring wealth (in some versions he claims they're magic, in others he does not), so the smart and safe choice would be to take the cow to market and sell it.  Why does Jack trade the cow for possibly magic beans instead?

The next morning, Jack sees the beanstalk outside his window and he decides to climb it.  Why does he do that?  It's not for riches or food, as Jack doesn't know those things are up there yet.  So what is it that actually motivates him?

In the story, those two decisions are the ones closest to the decision to become an adventurer, and Jack makes those decisions despite his poverty, not because of it.

Why the fuck are you encouraging him?


Well played, though.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;953477Why the fuck are you encouraging him?


Well played, though.

I'll take this one a step further.

"Just because!" or "To see whats there!" is one of the three biggest motivations for adventurers in the real world and fantasy. The others being wealth or to help someone.

Why go exploring some dungeon probably full of traps and/or monsters? For some its for the wealth, for some its for knowledge, for some its because the damn things there and curiosity is an irresistible magnet.

Boredom can be another trigger. Or dissatisfaction with their current lot in life. Or just for the excitement.

As for Jack and the Beanstalk. Why did he sell the cow for a handfull of beans? Because hes a moron? Because he was told(in some versions) they are magic? And what good would selling the cow have done other than to stave off the inevitable anyhow? As for why climb it? Well hes just been beaten for screwing up and this is his literal last chance. Its a giant BEAN stalk. So maybee he reasons there are giant beans up there? Or just plain ol' curiosity. Or because hes been told they are magic so who knows what is up there? Later it is established his mom is viciously greedy and keeps sending him up there to steal more stuff. Otherwise he'd likely have not gone up again. Which is a recurring theme of some of these stories. The hero/heroine gets a reward and is happy with that. But someone elses greed forces them right back into trouble.

All of this talk about motivation to adventure reminds me of a common saying around these parts....

"Hey Watch This!"

Really what else do you need to stick your sword down a goblin hole and stir crap up?

Like watching people philosophize about why some say, "hold my beer..." :confused: