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Author Topic: Where do these people come from?  (Read 7887 times)

rawma

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« Reply #90 on: July 04, 2017, 10:19:57 pm »
Quote from: Willie the Duck;973144
attribute minimums I believe only occur in AD&D. OD&D has the following attribute bonuses and penalties:
Prime  requisite  15 +: +10% xp
Prime  requisite  13  or  14: +5% xp
Prime  requisite  8 or  7: -10% xp
Prime  requisite 6 or  less: -20% xp
Constitution  15  or  more: +1 hp/hd (not level)
Constitution  13  or  14: Will withstand adversity (roughly equivalent to 100% system shock)
Constitution  of 9 -  12: 60% to 90% chance of surviving (see above)
Constitution  8  or  7: 40% to 50% chance of survival (see above)
Constitution  6  or  Less: -1 hp/hd
Dexterity above  12: Fire any missile at +1
Dexterity  under  9: Fire any missile at -1
Intelligence above 10: +1 language/pt.

Greyhawk added stat effects that roughly approximate AD&D stats, although it looks like it does not add any class minimums.


You forgot to list Charisma, which had a bonus ranging from -2 to +4, and significant effect on the number of hirelings.

How many people really rejected the wider bonuses that were in the Greyhawk supplement in 1975 and every subsequent version of the game? Besides Gronan and the people who quit playing D&D before 1975?

Baulderstone

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« Reply #91 on: July 04, 2017, 11:20:15 pm »
Quote from: Skarg;972952
My (ancient/incomplete/probably-flawed) memory of White Box D&D was it had no formal effect but there was a minimum attribute value to be each class, and if your Prime Requisite (ST for fighters, IQ for wizards, WIS for clerics...) was above certain levels, you'd get a multiplier to earned experience throughout the game. So actually valuable eventually if you live, but extremely abstract. Taken in the context of players picking (or lying about) their attribute values, it means they pick to get more XP than players that picked/rolled a lower value for their prime requisite.


XP adjustments is probably the most significant effect, but that underlines my point for a guy with straight 18s. Those 18s that aren't in his Prime Requisite(s) aren't as big a deal, and not close to as big as I could score by faking all my rolls in Stormbringer.

Back in my early D&D days, the biggest threat for the guy who showed up at the table with straight 18s would be the unbelieving scorn of the rest of the party. Going into a dungeon with a group of people that already resent you is not a good plan.

Willie the Duck

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« Reply #92 on: July 04, 2017, 11:34:14 pm »
Quote from: rawma;973176
You forgot to list Charisma, which had a bonus ranging from -2 to +4, and significant effect on the number of hirelings.
You're right. Chalk that up to brevity. Here it is:
Charisma Score Maximum # Hirelings Loyalty Base
3-4        1      -2
5-6        2      -1
7-9        3      
10-12     4
13-15     5       +1
16-17     6       +2
18          12      +4

Quote
How many people really rejected the wider bonuses that were in the Greyhawk supplement in 1975 and every subsequent version of the game? Besides Gronan and the people who quit playing D&D before 1975?

I don't think we have a real way of knowing. However, both are worth knowing, because OD&D and OD&D+GH are pretty vastly different playing experiences (In my mind, at least as big as the difference between any TSR-era editions).

Harlock

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« Reply #93 on: July 04, 2017, 11:38:08 pm »
Quote from: Baulderstone;973199
XP adjustments is probably the most significant effect, but that underlines my point for a guy with straight 18s. Those 18s that aren't in his Prime Requisite(s) aren't as big a deal, and not close to as big as I could score by faking all my rolls in Stormbringer

The XP bonus wasn't that big a deal either. One energy drain, cursed item or being dead for half an adventure or so and that bonus got ate up pretty quickly. All of that is pretty frequent in older editions.
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« Reply #94 on: July 09, 2017, 04:17:19 am »
The OP guy in this thread is hilarious. I mean, in an "I'd never actually want to meet this moron" kind of sense.
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« Reply #95 on: July 10, 2017, 06:43:24 am »
In AD&D there is enough granular benefits at the extremes that I wouldn't ever let someone choose straight 18s on down. The broad middling curve devoid of bonuses is where AD&D's strength laid for not worrying about stat differences in mixed company. A peak here or there amid mostly statistical human mean is far easier to play on without too much acrimonious player stat-envy.

Straight 18s I found also rather unplayable to expect players to meaningfully discover characterization of what is essentially the nascent demigod "Perfection of Man." I mean, I'd just laugh at the idea of some director cueing me up to play a role with the line, "You're the embodiment of mankind's peak of strength, wit, grace, and everything else. And, Go!" Sure you could just play yourself regardless of attempting to interpret the stats, but then why not shoot for a real challenge and try all 3s? Why bother with easy mode, n00b?
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« Reply #96 on: July 11, 2017, 11:04:16 am »
Yes, NDA sounds kind of silly.

Maybe I should, but I don't necessarily see GM guidance in character creation as a red flag. Sometimes participation in thought out worlds requires anchoring the character some events, persons, or whatnot through background. Among a group of gamer-strangers, wouldn't the lack of GM involvement imply the lowest common denominator: an average American high-fantasy? If anything (any kind of character) goes, PCs don't really matter as there is no cohesive setting beyond the steeplechase? That society around the PCs, if there is one, will not react their actions beyond necessary plot-points: quests, clues and straight-forward rewards? So the game is about success as specified by rules?

I know one novelist GM. I haven't played in his campaigns, but those that have, have enjoyed them. Are novelists are better or worse GMs than other people? Are they micromanagers with their worlds (more often than not)?  

I think that James S. A. Corey's excellent "The Expanse" series is based on Ty Franck's  MMORPG (then table-top RPG) setting. IIRC Steven Erikson's Malazan series is based on his fantasy world (and he uses GURPS). I would have loved to play in their campaigns - although I don't much care for Malazan series.
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Ulairi

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« Reply #97 on: July 11, 2017, 11:22:45 am »
Quote from: jahud;974564
IIRC Steven Erikson's Malazan series is based on his fantasy world (and he uses GURPS). I would have loved to play in their campaigns - although I don't much care for Malazan series.

A lot of fantasy authors are GURPS players.

Skarg

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« Reply #98 on: July 11, 2017, 11:33:06 am »
Quote from: jahud;974564
...

Maybe I should, but I don't necessarily see GM guidance in character creation as a red flag. Sometimes participation in thought out worlds requires anchoring the character some events, persons, or whatnot through background.
Yes, or at least it ought to be established where they are from in the world and how they were raised & trained & came to be in whatever group they're in together.

Quote
Among a group of gamer-strangers, wouldn't the lack of GM involvement imply the lowest common denominator: an average American high-fantasy?
Yes, or D&D, or something that's not really what the GM's world is.

Quote
If anything (any kind of character) goes, PCs don't really matter as there is no cohesive setting beyond the steeplechase? That society around the PCs, if there is one, will not react their actions beyond necessary plot-points: quests, clues and straight-forward rewards? So the game is about success as specified by rules?
That's not necessarily so, in my experience. Though it's not what I usually do, I have run games where PCs can a pretty wide range of generic types without giving them much world background, but there is still an interesting dynamic world those PCs arrive in and get to try to do what they want.

Another issue with generic groups of PCs is that they may not make much sense to be in a group together, though generic adventuring character classes and lack of background is one way to help that.

Quote
I know one novelist GM. I haven't played in his campaigns, but those that have, have enjoyed them. Are novelists are better or worse GMs than other people? Are they micromanagers with their worlds (more often than not)?
The writers and other GMs with detailed or heavily-typed worlds that I've played tend to be pretty detail-oriented, but for the ones I've chosen to play with, it hasn't been a bad thing. They have different playstyles, as is not doing that. A player who really likes a different style may call it worse. Another may call it better. I think it also really depends on the GM.

WillInNewHaven

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« Reply #99 on: July 11, 2017, 02:53:14 pm »
Quote from: jahud;974564

I know one novelist GM. I haven't played in his campaigns, but those that have, have enjoyed them. Are novelists are better or worse GMs than other people? Are they micromanagers with their worlds (more often than not)?  

I think that James S. A. Corey's excellent "The Expanse" series is based on Ty Franck's  MMORPG (then table-top RPG) setting. IIRC Steven Erikson's Malazan series is based on his fantasy world (and he uses GURPS). I would have loved to play in their campaigns - although I don't much care for Malazan series.

I play every Wednesday night in C.J. Carella's game. He has written superhero novels, modern fantasy novels (starting with _Shadowfall Las Vegas_ and now has a very successful military SF series going. He's a great GM. Of course, he was very involved in roleplaying games before he was a novelist. He created the Unisystem, wrote tons of GURPS material, wrote for Palladium and created the Buffy game and All Flesh Must be Eaten. I've been playing in his games (and GMing with him in my games) since the late Eighties.

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daniel_ream

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« Reply #100 on: July 11, 2017, 03:49:43 pm »
Quote from: jahud;974564
I would have loved to play in their campaigns - although I don't much care for Malazan series.

Settings designed for tabletop games rarely make for good literature, as their priorities are different.  I consider the rise of gaming-derived-yet-not-actually-licensed fantasy fiction to be one of the worst things to happen to the genre in years.
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Gorilla_Zod

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« Reply #101 on: July 11, 2017, 05:16:54 pm »
Quote from: daniel_ream;974635
Settings designed for tabletop games rarely make for good literature, as their priorities are different.  I consider the rise of gaming-derived-yet-not-actually-licensed fantasy fiction to be one of the worst things to happen to the genre in years.

I really tend to agree, though I'd make an honourable exception for China Mieville's Bas Lag novels.
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Skarg

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« Reply #102 on: July 12, 2017, 12:23:14 pm »
Quote from: daniel_ream;974635
Settings designed for tabletop games rarely make for good literature, as their priorities are different.  I consider the rise of gaming-derived-yet-not-actually-licensed fantasy fiction to be one of the worst things to happen to the genre in years.

I'm sure there are many examples of bad writing along those lines. Personally though, I could wish for good fantasy & sci fi writers to use more logic-based rules and roll some dice instead of choosing outcomes they think are cool and not bothering to make the way they happen make much sense. (e.g. the main thing I like about the Honor Harrington books is that they were written by a sci fi wargamer and the action often feels like a description of tactical game resolution and decision points, including the sudden unpredictable casualties.)
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 12:26:32 pm by Skarg »

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« Reply #103 on: July 14, 2017, 06:05:20 am »
Makes you wonder if the guy from the OP wasn't George RR Martin, looking for another project to delay the GoT book series yet further...
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Also available in Variant Cover form!
Also, now with the CULTS OF CHAOS cult-generation sourcebook

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Baulderstone

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« Reply #104 on: July 14, 2017, 06:28:45 am »
Quote from: Gorilla_Zod;974649
I really tend to agree, though I'd make an honourable exception for China Mieville's Bas Lag novels.


I'd agree. Of course, Perdido Street Station does suffer from being a book showing you a fantastic setting with a merely okay plot. The Scar has a much better balance though.

Quote from: RPGPundit;975412
Makes you wonder if the guy from the OP wasn't George RR Martin, looking for another project to delay the GoT book series yet further...


The system he's using does check out. Maybe the NDA is just to keep people from hearing that he is spending time playing RPGs so he doesn't have to face more Internet indignation for not finishing his series.

I guess the weak point in this theory is the "role-playing over roll-playing" argument. Based on his works, Martin is clearly "a let the dice fall where they may" type of GM.

"Oh, you still haven't properly resolved your character's ambitions and story arc? Then you should have rolled better. Fuck you. You're dead."

*tears up character sheet and points player to the 30 GURPS books currently being used for character generation.