One of the weirder elements I saw in a campaign world was that there was considerable dimorphism between male and female orcs.

Male orcs were pretty much big brutish types, although even that has its merits (opening jars, for example). Female orcs, on the other hand, were reminiscent of Orion slave girls in Star Trek. Sure, they had green skin and were healthy, sturdy types, but that was about all the two had in common. In fact, some nobles would raid orc encampments for women as having an orc concubine was considered impressive ('taming the beast'/civilization's superiority, that sort of thing).

So yeah, half-orcs tended to pop up a lot.

Quote from: areallifetrex;1125782Rape per se makes very little sense. Orcs getting women from conquered territories or tributaries (or even allies, since history has many examples of people making alliances with savages and heathens)? That makes more sense.

And if the setting has barbarian humans, they probably wouldn't have the same cultural divide with orcs and would probably intermarry with them. There's also plenty of examples of civilized men "going native." There could be stereotypes about how orc women aren't as prudish as human or elven women, and at least a few horny adventurers out there looking for an orc wife (This was a real motivation for adventurers in real life).

What really doesn't make sense is that orc tribes are always shown as either being racially homogeneous, or only having things like goblinoids or ogres around. Orc tribes should have tons of other demihumans recruited or enslaved from conquered lands. Most half-orcs should be part of orc tribes, not tragic outcasts living in human lands.

From a world building perspective, you would expect that women raped by orcs would abort their pregnancies as birth control has been practiced throughout real human history. I expect the overwhelming majority of surviving half-orcs to be the children of slaves or consensual relationships.

As for other monsters whose lore involves rape... any time a monster is mentioned as being sexually compatible with humans then this will typically involve either violent rape (orcs, ogres, minotaurs, etc) or rape through mind control (succubi, lamiae, etc). The exact lore varies by edition.

Quote from: soltakss;1125798Personally, I have never thought this and don't know anyone, as far as I know, who thinks this.

That is because it is a strawman. In my surveys, I have found the accurate argument to be "savage humanoids in general, orcs being a commonly cited example, are disturbing because their characterization is reminiscent of real world racist propaganda that dehumanized non-white people." Ultimately, this is a side effect of the fact that elf-games are violent fantasies of murdering and looting. Attempting to justify the actions of the murderhobos would necessarily require dehumanizing their victims in a similar manner to historical racist propaganda.

The problem goes away if you stop depicting savage humanoids as inherently evil and deserving extermination.

Quote from: Omega;1125791Stupid people claiming stupid things about games. News at 11.

No. Really. These morons just parrot/cut-n-paste the same tired old spiel because they have no brain cells to rub together.

Orcs = Rape
Orcs = Black People

sooooo. That must mean Orcs = Black rapists?

Thats what these nuts are obviously claiming then.

When Star Trek: TNG first came out, a lot of black rights activists came out of the woodwork declaring that Klingons were parodies of militant black activists. That was a bullshit designed to attract attention to their cause de jour rather than examine the theme of Klingons in the Star Trek setting, just like how a discussion on half-orc origins has brought about a bullshit claim from Omega that everyone else REALLY MEANS that orcs are black rapists for there to be half-orcs.

Quote from: Melan;1125731This thread is inspired by a throwaway quote in the Adam Koebel thread:


I find it interesting that "half-orcs-by-rape" have become such a default assumption of D&D worlds, so much so that it is often specifically mentioned as their usual origin story. It is also one of the D&D elements which are typically found to be "problematic" by critics; that you have a whole player subrace of, basically, rape babies. Quit correct that it would be tasteless.

The reason this comes out of left field is because it didn't seem to be that way at all when we started playing (early 1990s). The assumption was simply that some people just have seriously low standards - not unlike real life - and there would certainly be many more people like this than rapists. Half-orcs would mostly result from drunken flings at the tavern, prostitution, or just a particularly bad taste that was looked down on, but nevertheless happened. This actually cut both ways: one of Hungary's formative fantasy novels featured a half-orc protagonist (lovingly described as "reeking of the smell of chicken guts" in his favourite old cloak), who finds human women to be mostly uninteresting, and elves almost revolting in their purity, while he has the hots for a female half-orc assassin (who ends up betraying him multiple times, which only adds to the romance). At any rate, there was no great assumption that half-orcs would by default result from raiding orcs forcing themselves on hapless human women, but something that would just result every so often from humans and orcs living in close proximity, mostly in seedier parts (like cities with a lot of travellers passing through). And while the books don't put much emphasis on the matter, said half-orc is the offspring of a priestess of chaos, who deliberately bore a half-orc child to fulfill a prophecy.

There is, also, quite a leap of assumption that it is an orc-males-and-human-women issue. Perhaps a human man might also feel affection for an orc woman, or at least have a fondness for the brain soup Ugglina the Orc is cooking. Perhaps orcish strength and resilience are sought commodities on certain frontiers, which are valued over physical beauty. Or, as it happens, one or both parents are rich and/or powerful, and it was a marriage of convenience, or a diplomatic arrangement. Sure, orcs smell, but then so do barbarians.

I would not say this rules out rape. In lawless and violent locales, it may be a horrible fact of life (and if you think humans would be above raping orc females, you have more faith in humanity than I do). It is hard to have a plausible world where horrible crimes don't happen every so often. But even beyond the possibility, something about the idea that half-orcs=rape all the time, every time, strikes me as both an ugly assumption, and one that, honestly, betrays a lack of imagination.

Rape is a touchy subject. For my own games, if rape is part of the background of the setting then it stays. If a Player or GM wants to have rape as an in game, in character action I dump the game.

Orcs are the iconic representation of uncivilized bestial violence. They are cannibalistic when food sources get low. They craft and create crude devices for war, but would rather take them in conquest from humans, elves, and dwarves, while halflings and gnomes can offer little more than meat for their tables and sport for their amusements. Even the humans, elves, and dwarves  become meat for the table once the orcs are done playing with them. This iswhy the civilized lands strike back against the orcs to keep their numbers down.

Half-orcs not being the product of rape or forced breeding programs had never crossed most gamers minds in play IMHO because it would seem out of character for the monster and make it less 'monstrous'.

Storks, man... Its always the Storks.

Precisely NO PEOPLE are harmed in the production of Half-Orcs via implied rape.

I'll extend that to "Half-Elves", "Half-Dwarves" and "Half-fantasy anything in elf-games".

Quote from: soltakss;1125798Maybe, sometimes.

Personally, I have never thought this and don't know anyone, as far as I know, who thinks this.

https://www.wired.com/2018/11/geeks-guide-lotr-orcs/
Now you do.

The real irony for me is that in one my current campaigns the half-orc is actually the result of a loving union (harsh people on the borderlands style) while the half-elf was the result of rape during a Wild Hunt (and the elves of the region are very touchy about interbreeding with "lesser" species).

Quote from: S'mon;1125740I thought they originated in the breeding pits of the Dark Lord, certainly in Tolkien. Made sense when orcs were Faceless Minions of Evil. 'Mummy Orc and Daddy Human loved each other Very Much' works better for World of Warcraft type orcs.

No, half-orcs in Tolkien originated in the breeding pits of Saruman, the Wannabe Usurper of Dark Lord Junior. Morgoth used elf stock in his breeding pits, making proper orcs out of them.

Quote from: Albert the Absentminded;1125821No, half-orcs in Tolkien originated in the breeding pits of Saruman, the Wannabe Usurper of Dark Lord Junior. Morgoth used elf stock in his breeding pits, making proper orcs out of them.

I was counting Saruman in the Dark Lord camp.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1125784"the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar" (The Silmarillion p. 50)

I find the magical pod orcs to be a cop-out. Tolkien was circumspect about writing about orc reproduction because it is heavily implied that Morgoth "made" orcs by corrupting elves. And Saruman bred the Uruk-Hai by crossbreeding humans and orcs. And describing that stuff is better left for writers like GRR Martin, and not the treatise for a high fantasy story like Lord of the Rings.

I agree that Tolkien intended to say that orcs breed like humans -- but he was extremely circumspect in describing that. He didn't just avoid describing sex like GRR Martin, he never mentions any orc women or children, to the point that it's an obscure line that orcs reproduce at all. The problem of adaptation is that film is a visual medium, so it's not so easy to convey "breeding pits" without giving details. In RPGs, since the plot is freeform, you'll have situations where PCs get to an orc lair and ask what they find. A GM can't define that there are orc women and children exist in the lair without them appearing, if the plot is freeform and PCs can go wherever they like and ask such questions.

Quote from: S'mon;1125793From what I recall LOTR does imply in several places that orcs and half-orcs (as you say) breed naturally. There is speculation of near-human man-orcs living in Bree, as well as the Uruk-Hai. I remember in the Silmarillion orcs capturing elven females with at least implied nefarious intent. It certainly felt weird to me when I saw Jackson's Saruman growing orcs in pods. That also seems to go against the idea that evil can't create life, only corrupt existing life.

I agree that it's implied, but it is pretty notable that one has to read between the lines to get that orc women and children even exist. In a film or especially in an RPG, it's harder to draw a veil over such details. One could just have a meta-rule at the table that PCs don't ask about where new orcs come from, and the group skims over such issues, but that could feel strange.

Quote from: jeff37923;1125811Rape is a touchy subject. For my own games, if rape is part of the background of the setting then it stays. If a Player or GM wants to have rape as an in game, in character action I dump the game.

Orcs are the iconic representation of uncivilized bestial violence. They are cannibalistic when food sources get low. They craft and create crude devices for war, but would rather take them in conquest from humans, elves, and dwarves, while halflings and gnomes can offer little more than meat for their tables and sport for their amusements. Even the humans, elves, and dwarves  become meat for the table once the orcs are done playing with them. This iswhy the civilized lands strike back against the orcs to keep their numbers down.

Half-orcs not being the product of rape or forced breeding programs had never crossed most gamers minds in play IMHO because it would seem out of character for the monster and make it less 'monstrous'.

It is edgelordy and cliche.

Why do orcs have to be monsters in the first place? Why can't adventurers fight literal nazis? Or [insert real life group you don't like here]?

Conversely, couldn't you play up the banality of evil by having the overlord legitimately hiring people to birth brainwashed soldiers for his army? Seriously, imagine a conversation between two prostitutes who casually talk about how many babies they had who were sent to death and only care about how much money they were paid for each one. IMO, that is far more horrifying than any amount of imagined torture porn featuring women getting raped by orcs could ever be.

Quote from: tenbones;1125813Precisely NO PEOPLE are harmed in the production of Half-Orcs via implied rape.

I'll extend that to "Half-Elves", "Half-Dwarves" and "Half-fantasy anything in elf-games".

Nobody is harmed by playing FATAL but that doesn't mean we should tell everyone that they're wrong, stupid, immature, etc unless they play and praise it.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1125818https://www.wired.com/2018/11/geeks-guide-lotr-orcs/
Now you do.

The elf-games have this premise where entire races of intelligent beings exist for the purpose of being killed because the author arbitrarily declared they were born evil. This is implicitly done because the author doesn't want to depict the PCs routinely killing other human beings. That whole dynamic is eerily similar to the dehumanizing racist/sexist/ideological propaganda used throughout real history.

Quote from: Albert the Absentminded;1125821No, half-orcs in Tolkien originated in the breeding pits of Saruman, the Wannabe Usurper of Dark Lord Junior. Morgoth used elf stock in his breeding pits, making proper orcs out of them.

What the hell even is a "breeding pit"? Judging by the name, I'm assuming it is literal and not a euphemism for a brothel. Are these like sentient ponds that eat people and spews out orcs? Sounds pretty metal.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1125827Why do orcs have to be monsters in the first place? Why can't adventurers fight literal nazis?

Because that's what the name Orc LITERALLY means.

The term is used in Beowulf as a reference to those condemned by God and it is generally translated as "evil spirit." Its a variant of Orke or "Ogre"; a common term for evil spirits throughout the medieval world.

As I'm sure you're aware, it derives from Orcus, a euphemism for the Roman god of underworld. In the context of Medieval Europe however that meant "The Devil."

You may as well ask "Why do Nazis have to be bad guys in the first place?"

Words either mean things or they don't.

Quote from: Chris24601;1125829Because that's what the name Orc LITERALLY means.

The term is used in Beowulf as a reference to those condemned by God and it is generally translated as "evil spirit." Its a variant of Orke or "Ogre"; a common term for evil spirits throughout the medieval world.

As I'm sure you're aware, it derives from Orcus, a euphemism for the Roman god of underworld. In the context of Medieval Europe however that meant "The Devil."

You may as well ask "Why do Nazis have to be bad guys in the first place?"

Words either mean things or they don't.

This is an intellectually dishonest argument. The orcs aren't literal demons in the lore of the game canon. They're basically human beings, except the writers said they're arbitrarily born evil as a shallow for building the game around killing them. Why not fight the literal demons of the game? We don't need orcs in that case. We don't need to worry about fictitious moral dilemmas like "should we kill the baby orcs?" At least demons are the transmuted souls of people who did evil in life of their own free will.

Quote from: Chris24601;1125829You may as well ask "Why do Nazis have to be bad guys in the first place?"

The nazis are the default bad guys in a lot of fiction because they historically did bad things. It's an easy shorthand. Orcs are wholly fictional and never existed in reality. More importantly, nazis are still human beings. They didn't choose the path of evil because they were born evil, they chose it because they were indoctrinated by their culture. They don't even believe themselves to be evil, they believe their enemies are... orcs, basically.

The philosophical implication with orcs is they exist solely to allow the PCs to commit genocide without guilt as a game convention. That feels a lot like racist propaganda to me, so I naturally find the concept disturbing. The concept of orcs being people in their own right is still an outlier in tabletop games, whereas in wider fiction like video games and prose it is far more common.

Quote from: jhkim;1125824I agree that Tolkien intended to say that orcs breed like humans -- but he was extremely circumspect in describing that. He didn't just avoid describing sex like GRR Martin, he never mentions any orc women or children, to the point that it's an obscure line that orcs reproduce at all. The problem of adaptation is that film is a visual medium, so it's not so easy to convey "breeding pits" without giving details. In RPGs, since the plot is freeform, you'll have situations where PCs get to an orc lair and ask what they find. A GM can't define that there are orc women and children exist in the lair without them appearing, if the plot is freeform and PCs can go wherever they like and ask such questions.

Yes, but what I think is also avoided is that notion that 'orc psychology' is somehow simply based on human or elf deviance.

In D&D, it was made clear from early on that half-orcs are typically the result of rape. Then there is the lack of CHA penalty of half-orcs to orcs.

LOTR orcs may not be all that sex driven. A bunch of male orcs pillaging a human town may be thinking in terms of labor slaves or simply slaughtering everyone. Violence alone may simply override most other considerations. Or orcs may simply cannot get it up for anything other than an orc female.