If circumstances are such that the character will get there eventually don't even roll the check. They succeeded and it took X time.
In circumstances where success is impossible don't bother rolling.

Check rolls are for times when the outcome is uncertain and has dramatic impact.
Re-rolls of failed checks are allowed when something about the circumstances changes in a significant way. The character obtains a new tome of hidden and obscure lore, goes up a level or improves their skill score, obtains a better set of tools, is no longer under time pressure, etc.

But, even with re-rolls failure is still failure. The character cannot accomplish the task at this time. I don't see a point in rolling and re-rolling until they eventually succeed. If that is going to be the situation just let them succeed and move on with the game.

It doesn't matter how many times you roll as long as something always happens on a failure.

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Quote from: Anon Adderlan;960564It doesn't matter how many times you roll as long as something always happens on a failure.

Something always does happen on a failure, you spent a resource to make that attempt, even if that resource was only time.  Yeah if there's literally no consequence for failure, not even the spending of time, then you get into the "Why the hell are you rolling?" area, but honestly, how often does that happen?

Lock picking is one of the interesting cases.

Given the tools and skills you can probably keep trying all day and eventually get it.

But there is that chance of breaking the picks. Or what if you don not have the tools and have to jurry-rig something. You might fail and realize that you are going to have to get better tools for the task. You can continue trying. You just can not continue right now. Time or resources may be wasted. Mostly time. And we all know that stuff tends to happen if you dally too long.

Quote from: Omega;961051Lock picking is one of the interesting cases.

Given the tools and skills you can probably keep trying all day and eventually get it.

But there is that chance of breaking the picks. Or what if you don not have the tools and have to jurry-rig something. You might fail and realize that you are going to have to get better tools for the task. You can continue trying. You just can not continue right now. Time or resources may be wasted. Mostly time. And we all know that stuff tends to happen if you dally too long.

As someone whose done a bit of locksmithing work, lock picks breaking is a rather common  fear.

Thing is, the average fantasy mechanical lock isn't that hard to pick, a dagger could do it.

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Quote from: Omega;961051Lock picking is one of the interesting cases.

Given the tools and skills you can probably keep trying all day and eventually get it.

But there is that chance of breaking the picks. Or what if you don not have the tools and have to jurry-rig something. You might fail and realize that you are going to have to get better tools for the task. You can continue trying. You just can not continue right now. Time or resources may be wasted. Mostly time. And we all know that stuff tends to happen if you dally too long.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;961058As someone whose done a bit of locksmithing work, lock picks breaking is a rather common  fear.

Thing is, the average fantasy mechanical lock isn't that hard to pick, a dagger could do it.

So, by the technical specifics of the task, lockpicking shouldn't be considered a situation where there's no penalty for failure? Sounds good. The situation simply isn't similar to the OP scenario then.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;961084It has to be a significant resource, though. And that's not always true of time.

And so, when you get to the situation where time is not a significant resource, some tasks become trivial.

Quote from: Omega;961051Lock picking is one of the interesting cases.

Given the tools and skills you can probably keep trying all day and eventually get it.

But what's the difference between multiple attempts per day and a single attempt which takes all day long?

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;961388But what's the difference between multiple attempts per day a single attempt which takes all day long?

The nebulous nature of rpg abstraction strike again.

This is a great question, and I think is best dealt with through a rigid rule, where everyone knows how it works every time and they can make up their own mind whether or not it is worth it. The one I use is, you can try anything you want as many times as you want, but each attempt takes an 'action' (whatever that means in your system) and each additional attempt incurs a standard penalty (also will vary with system; I mostly play a house ruled variant of The Fantasy Trip, where I can just add 1 die to the roll for each extra effort attempt). In general, people might both with a second attempt but rarely want to blow the effort (and incur the critical failure chance) of a third or subsequent attempt.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;961058As someone whose done a bit of locksmithing work, lock picks breaking is a rather common  fear.

Thing is, the average fantasy mechanical lock isn't that hard to pick, a dagger could do it.

Mid 20th century locks are ridiculously easy to pick. My mom was a building caretaker when I was a kid. The storage room was full of tools, and with some old keys, a vice grip and an iron file, I had keys that could open the doors on any of the six buildings in the complex. With some of those old locks, any key would work. You just have to apply pressure in the direction the door opens and wiggle for a little bit. You could use a similar approach to combination locks. In junior high I was the go to guy when someone forgot their combination. Those locks were so bad I could tell them what their combination was because the lock would literally move a little when you hit a number. Don't even get me started on doors with spring loaded and fully visible latches. You just slide it with any key you want. So yeah the credit card thing actually did work, but only until around the mid 80s or so and of course in older buildings that haven't changed their locks in 40 years.

One thing that could apply here is alternate problem solving methods. A former roommate once locked himself out of his room. I made a joke about being able to get the door open in a minute with my power drill. He told me to get my drill and anytime someone gives me licence to destroy something, I do not hesitate. Those doorknob locks, you just put a 1/4" bit right through the middle of it and that lock will never bother you again. So say if a thief thought to carry a hand drill with him and hopefully someone big to use it, they could get a second chance on a failed pick roll. They are still opening a lock, but using applied force as well as knowledge of where to apply the drill. Which makes it different from just brute forcing your way through.

In a more modern setting like an office building, imagine a door with a really good lock that stumps a burglar, who then realizes he can cut a hole in the drywall next to the door.

Quote from: Omega;961051Lock picking is one of the interesting cases.

Given the tools and skills you can probably keep trying all day and eventually get it.

In d20 that was called Taking 20.

Quote from: Omega;961051But there is that chance of breaking the picks. Or what if you don not have the tools and have to jurry-rig something. You might fail and realize that you are going to have to get better tools for the task. You can continue trying. You just can not continue right now. Time or resources may be wasted. Mostly time. And we all know that stuff tends to happen if you dally too long.

MacGyver would jury rig something. An innovative thief might be able to work something out, and a DM who is willing to entertain the idea might facilitate it. And by facilitate I mean offer a solution which has it's own dangers, "Hey guys, remember those Deurgar we killed before we went through the big spider cave? Weren't they like some sort of smiths? I'm sure I saw tools and stuff laying around that we didn't loot. Yes, that means we have to go back through the spider cave and then back through it again on our way back but... Hey! Guys! Where are you going?"

Quote from: Krimson;961409Mid 20th century locks are ridiculously easy to pick. My mom was a building caretaker when I was a kid. The storage room was full of tools, and with some old keys, a vice grip and an iron file, I had keys that could open the doors on any of the six buildings in the complex. With some of those old locks, any key would work. You just have to apply pressure in the direction the door opens and wiggle for a little bit. You could use a similar approach to combination locks. In junior high I was the go to guy when someone forgot their combination. Those locks were so bad I could tell them what their combination was because the lock would literally move a little when you hit a number. Don't even get me started on doors with spring loaded and fully visible latches. You just slide it with any key you want. So yeah the credit card thing actually did work, but only until around the mid 80s or so and of course in older buildings that haven't changed their locks in 40 years.

One thing that could apply here is alternate problem solving methods. A former roommate once locked himself out of his room. I made a joke about being able to get the door open in a minute with my power drill. He told me to get my drill and anytime someone gives me licence to destroy something, I do not hesitate. Those doorknob locks, you just put a 1/4" bit right through the middle of it and that lock will never bother you again. So say if a thief thought to carry a hand drill with him and hopefully someone big to use it, they could get a second chance on a failed pick roll. They are still opening a lock, but using applied force as well as knowledge of where to apply the drill. Which makes it different from just brute forcing your way through.

In a more modern setting like an office building, imagine a door with a really good lock that stumps a burglar, who then realizes he can cut a hole in the drywall next to the door.

This matches up with my experiences, although I did a small stint in the mid to late 90's.

Quote from: Krimson;961409In d20 that was called Taking 20.

I always thought it was a dumb rule.  I mean at that point you may as well just say 'Yeah, it opens.'  BUT, I am not going to mock people for liking it.  If it works for you, perfect, the rule has done its job.  Like I stated above, and I have to actually thank Gumshoe for this, but I prefer to have failure be more than just a 'Full Stop, do not pass go, do not collect $200' situation.  If I can throw an interesting complication, I would rather do that, then bog down play.

Quote from: Krimson;961409MacGyver would jury rig something. An innovative thief might be able to work something out, and a DM who is willing to entertain the idea might facilitate it. And by facilitate I mean offer a solution which has it's own dangers, "Hey guys, remember those Deurgar we killed before we went through the big spider cave? Weren't they like some sort of smiths? I'm sure I saw tools and stuff laying around that we didn't loot. Yes, that means we have to go back through the spider cave and then back through it again on our way back but... Hey! Guys! Where are you going?"

Again, dagger in lock, not to mention, you opened up some more adventure opportunities.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;961420I always thought it was a dumb rule.  I mean at that point you may as well just say 'Yeah, it opens.'  BUT, I am not going to mock people for liking it.  If it works for you, perfect, the rule has done its job.  Like I stated above, and I have to actually thank Gumshoe for this, but I prefer to have failure be more than just a 'Full Stop, do not pass go, do not collect $200' situation.  If I can throw an interesting complication, I would rather do that, then bog down play.

Yes take 20 was kind of pointless, but a failure does not have to mean play is bogged down unless the adventure is linear and failing a skill check stops everything. Design better adventures and the situation doesn't even become a problem.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;961388But what's the difference between multiple attempts per day a single attempt which takes all day long?

Whether or not the task needs to be completed in 10 hours, 10 minutes, or 10 seconds.