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Author Topic: When is Point-Buy Acceptable?  (Read 10134 times)

Seanchai
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When is Point-Buy Acceptable?
« Reply #75 on: July 19, 2011, 10:56:21 AM »
Quote from: Soylent Green;468746
It's been a long, long time I read the Amber books so I may be misremembering things, but if I recall correctly for every troublemaker like Blaze or Fiona there someone like Gerard, Random or Flora who,given a choice, wouldn't really rather not get involved.


And Vialle - good people who do good works. If I recall, Martin - the generation of the PCs - was supposed to have seen the light and come around, too, after being tricked...

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Seanchai
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« Reply #76 on: July 19, 2011, 10:59:15 AM »
Quote from: RPGPundit;468733
You're a fucking idiot.


And you're a sweetheart. A mixed up, deeply hypocritical sweetheart, but a sweetheart nonetheless.

Quote from: RPGPundit;468733
SETTING is EMULATION. There's no difference. Every setting will be emulating a genre. EVERY setting.


The game is being set in Denver, Colorado, present day, with all it's people and political figures. What's the genre?

You can't tell me, can you? Somehow, despite your iron-clad guarantee, it took me all of two seconds to come up with a setting that doesn't have a genre attached.

Quote from: RPGPundit;468733
"I was forced to be a Knight in Pendragon" is not storygaming, its just a fucking framework.


No, but "I was forced to be a knight in Pendragon and we tried to re-create Le Morte D'Arthur by making certain characters, choices, etc.," would be.

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I'm glad you're finally admitting it.


As we all know, I wasn't. But are you swinging back that position now, after taking a dip in a more moderate one?

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jibbajibba

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« Reply #77 on: July 19, 2011, 11:36:24 AM »
Quote from: Seanchai;468826
I agree. Thus I think it comes down to how it's used.

"Meta-consciousness" that merely informs game play is one thing. Traditional games are on this end of the scale. You know you're playing D&D, so you think about wizards, fighters, and clerics for characters; and when the townsfolk mysteriously disappear, you start to think goblins, evil wizards, curses, and so on.

However, it seems to me that "meta-consciousness" which dictates play is on the other end of the scale. Here you're not just conscious of the arena in which you're playing, you're using said consciousness to bring about specific results. You choose to play a nasty, fratricidal character not because they exist in the Amber novels, but because you want to re-create the feel of the Amber novels. Your character's actions aren't based so much on what the character would do as what will help re-create the feel of the novels. And so on. It seems to me that many non-traditional or (sigh) "storygames" fall on this end of the spectrum.

Personally, I don't find this to be a problem. They're just two different ways to approach a game and I appreciate them both in different ways. However, Pundit is not that type of construct. He's been railing against "storygames" for a while now and I find it funny that he's now suggesting Amber is one of them...

Seanchai


See I differ here. Not all my Amberites are nasty or fratricidal. I have played lovable rogues, honourable soldiers etc my NPCs are usually even more mixed. However, my Amber always has it's share of nasty fratricidal characters because I think that that is a feature of the setting just the same as it would be in a Game of Thrones game or a Borgias game etc ...
So individual PCs can play it anyway they want but the feel of the setting , the genre if you will will be of machiavellian courtly politics onto which the plot elements are projected.

Now none of that stops it being a point buy chargen system of course.
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« Reply #78 on: July 20, 2011, 12:29:11 AM »
Quote from: jibbajibba;468842
Not all my Amberites are nasty or fratricidal.


Note: I don't believe they should be either. I think playing a game of Amber means using the ideas and themes present in the books and being "nasty, fratricidal" is only one of many. There are plenty of other avenues to explore.

However, some have stated that in order to be a true Scotsman in an Amber game, you have to be nasty and fratricidal and it is from thence that my comments spring...

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« Reply #79 on: July 20, 2011, 03:12:32 AM »
Quote from: Seanchai;468835

The game is being set in Denver, Colorado, present day, with all it's people and political figures. What's the genre?

You can't tell me, can you? Somehow, despite your iron-clad guarantee, it took me all of two seconds to come up with a setting that doesn't have a genre attached.


Modern earth, "realistic".  Try again, bitch.

Quote

No, but "I was forced to be a knight in Pendragon and we tried to re-create Le Morte D'Arthur by making certain characters, choices, etc.," would be.


In a regular RPG, you COULDN'T "recreate Le Morte D'Arthur", not faithfully, because the nature of the emulation wouldn't allow it. You could set a game going on during the same time as the story of Le Morte D'Arthur, but PC actions would be bound to derail the story.  It is "storygaming" if the players themselves (with the GM) end up just enacting the "story" of "morte d'arthur", ignoring the game element.  
That is of course, nothing like what Amber does.  

If I was arguing that Amber was all about playing out the 10 novels, then you'd have some kind of a fucking point. As it is, you're just making your usual incredibly stupid attempt at trolling without doing even the minimum to address what's actually being said in the least.

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« Reply #80 on: July 20, 2011, 10:35:29 AM »
Quote from: RPGPundit;468956
Modern earth, "realistic".  Try again, bitch.


No, sorry, it was noir. (Moreover, what the hell genre is "modern earth, realistic"?)

Quote from: RPGPundit;468956
If I was arguing that Amber was all about playing out the 10 novels, then you'd have some kind of a fucking point.


Why do you think Amber games need nasty, fratricidal characters? Why must a good Amber GM create intra-party conflict in your estimation? Because that's how it is in the books. You're trying to make the game like the books. That isn't "playing out" the novels?

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« Reply #81 on: July 20, 2011, 05:43:20 PM »
Quote from: Seanchai;469012
No, sorry, it was noir. (Moreover, what the hell genre is "modern earth, realistic"?)


Not based on the description you provided.
Because "realism" is impossible in an emulation, "realistic" would be an element of an emulation; that is, you can't actually simulate reality, but you can emulate a set of concepts that are meant to give off the feeling that "you're playing in our 'real world', as opposed to a fantasy world or a cinematic game".


Quote

Why do you think Amber games need nasty, fratricidal characters? Why must a good Amber GM create intra-party conflict in your estimation? Because that's how it is in the books. You're trying to make the game like the books. That isn't "playing out" the novels?


No, its creating a virtual world that reflects the imaginary world of the novels.

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« Reply #82 on: July 21, 2011, 11:57:13 AM »
Quote from: RPGPundit;469066
Not based on the description you provided.


Sure, based on the description I provided. What more than my description would I need for a noir game?

Quote from: RPGPundit;469066
No, its creating a virtual world that reflects the imaginary world of the novels.


And when storygamers sit down with their storygames, they're just looking to create a virtual world that reflects the imaginary world they've imagined.

But, that aside, you're not. The imaginary world of the novels is much larger and more diverse than that the stories in the novels. It's large enough and diverse enough have all kinds of characters, not just nasty, fratricidal ones.

Moreover, a universe with just or mostly nasty, fratricidal would fall apart under the weight of its immoral character. It couldn't function. And it wouldn't be an interesting stage on which to set stories.

No. You want Amber games to be cut throat, full of PVP, and nasty, fratricidal characters not because the world that Zelazny created is that way but because the stories of the novels are that way.

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« Reply #83 on: July 21, 2011, 01:03:08 PM »
Quote from: Seanchai;469179
Sure, based on the description I provided. What more than my description would I need for a noir game?


You're a fucking idiot. I swear to god, what are you, three?! If you gave  nothing in your description that would have pointed to "noir" how could I have judged it that?

Now, stop your tantrum or you won't be allowed to piss in the grownup's garden party anymore.

Quote

And when storygamers sit down with their storygames, they're just looking to create a virtual world that reflects the imaginary world they've imagined.

But, that aside, you're not. The imaginary world of the novels is much larger and more diverse than that the stories in the novels. It's large enough and diverse enough have all kinds of characters, not just nasty, fratricidal ones.

Moreover, a universe with just or mostly nasty, fratricidal would fall apart under the weight of its immoral character. It couldn't function. And it wouldn't be an interesting stage on which to set stories.

No. You want Amber games to be cut throat, full of PVP, and nasty, fratricidal characters not because the world that Zelazny created is that way but because the stories of the novels are that way.


Again, you're a fucking idiot.  My players in my Amber game are not playing bakers and candlestick makers in some shadow somewhere; they are in fact PLAYING MOTHERFUCKING AMBERITES.

So your argument is as utterly mentally retarded as saying "the Kennedies aren't a bunch of womanizing alcoholic political quasi-royalty because bob johnson, who isn't a Kennedy at all, is none of those things".

Seriously, there is no point in continuing this argument: either you actually don't understand the difference between SETTING and STORY, in which case you are an irredeemable idiot too stupid to be of any use to us here; or you are continuing to argue out of hatred for me personally and doing it unforgivably in the worst way possible, by making arguments you know are utterly fucking retarded, your desire to annoy overcoming any lingering sense of shame or self-worth you might have in the back of your conscience trying to warn you about how much of a fucking moron you sound like.

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« Reply #84 on: July 22, 2011, 09:41:34 AM »
In almost every gaming experience I've ever had, the players have been able to power-game/minxmax BETTER when a class/level system was played over a point-buy. The classic example is elves from early editions of D&D. Elves were superior to humans in every way, and campaigns either never made it to a level where the racial level cap mattered, or it was a widely ignored rule. I got really sick of running parties full of elves, just because they were more powerful. In later editions of D&D/Pathfinder, the cross-leveling-for-power got ridiculous after a while.

I've found that point-buy systems actually force the players to think about what kind of character they are making. The construction process itself seems to result in different kinds of characters. It also makes it a lot easier to weed out the truly creative/innovative players from the ones who couldn't put together an interesting concept if their life depended on it*.

*- I've ran and played GURPS games since 1994, so this is largely where my feelings on this come from. I am unfamiliar with modern point-buy systems other than Savage Worlds, and have only played one game of Amber under a horrible GM (so I do not feel I can give it a fair review).

I'm a huge fan of point buy in almost every way, and if a game is structured with classes/levels, I'm sure to lose interest after a while.

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« Reply #85 on: July 22, 2011, 10:41:27 AM »
Quote from: RPGPundit;469186
If you gave  nothing in your description that would have pointed to "noir" how could I have judged it that?


Shrug. You're the one who believes setting and genre are synonymous. That being the case, I don't see what the trouble is - everyone should have known I was basically thinking Brick set in Denver when I said, "Denver, Colorado, present day, with all it's people and political figures."

Quote from: RPGPundit;469186
...either you actually don't understand the difference between SETTING and STORY, in which case you are an irredeemable idiot too stupid to be of any use to us here...


A setting is about possibility and a story is about specifics.

In your case, however, you're throwing out the Amber setting. It contains a wide range possibilities, including PC bakers and candle makers out in a Shadow somewhere. You've rejected all that because that's not what happened in the stories...

When a game dictates player and GM choices on a "meta conscious level" to create or preserve some narrative element, it's what you call a "storygame."

That's what you're doing. You can cuss, foam at the mouth, make whatever kind of personal attacks you like, etc., but it won't change the fact that you're treating Amber like a "storygame."

Quote from: RPGPundit;469186
..or you are continuing to argue out of hatred for me personally and doing it unforgivably in the worst way possible, by making arguments you know are utterly fucking retarded, your desire to annoy overcoming any lingering sense of shame or self-worth you might have in the back of your conscience trying to warn you about how much of a fucking moron you sound like.


You're confused. I don't remotely hate you. The strongest emotion I feel for you is pity, but mostly it's just a general head-shaking apathy over your antics. I've disagreed with you over this issue because, once again, you've made an extreme, stupid argument.

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« Reply #86 on: July 22, 2011, 11:50:41 AM »
Quote from: Yevla;469359


I'm a huge fan of point buy in almost every way, and if a game is structured with classes/levels, I'm sure to lose interest after a while.


Interesting cos my current fantasyheartbreaker project uses class and level and point buy. By which I mean the classes have archetypes tha the GM builds with point buy but are specific to their game world, so a Warrior - Barbarian, or a Warrior - Pirate or indeed a Rogue - Pirate. But then when you go up each level you get a set of things to buy from a menu determined by the archetype.
Its a bit liek the abortion that was 2E Skills and Powers.
The differences are in what you need to buy so you can buy To hit Bonus and Hit points as well as armour use or spells etc ...
Anyway just wondering if that type of thing would keep the Point buy part of you interested :0
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« Reply #87 on: July 22, 2011, 12:26:01 PM »
Quote from: jibbajibba;469386
Interesting cos my current fantasyheartbreaker project uses class and level and point buy. By which I mean the classes have archetypes tha the GM builds with point buy but are specific to their game world, so a Warrior - Barbarian, or a Warrior - Pirate or indeed a Rogue - Pirate. But then when you go up each level you get a set of things to buy from a menu determined by the archetype.
Its a bit liek the abortion that was 2E Skills and Powers.
The differences are in what you need to buy so you can buy To hit Bonus and Hit points as well as armour use or spells etc ...
Anyway just wondering if that type of thing would keep the Point buy part of you interested :0

It's lot easier for me to handle class/level as a player than as a GM, because a large part of the fun for me as a GM is to make up my own settings, monsters, etc. Whereas as a player I like doing high adventure stories. In both I greatly appreciate the power to tweak my character to the image I have in my head, or to make my own races for a world, etc. I think as a player I would probably enjoy your game a great deal more than all of the Pathfinder games I'm offered here, but that would also depend on the style of it as well. If I came to you with a character concept and it would fit in your game, after you've given me the acceptable limitations of the campaign, then we're on.

At Gencon Indy this year I'm planning on running two games for friends; a He-Man game with the PCs playing Skeletors henchmen, and a Clash at Demonhead game. Both are one-shots, and in GURPS. It would be much more difficult for me to do them in a class/level system. I like the creation aspect of point buy systems, and the freedom to do games like this every once in a while.

edit: this post needed a lot of editing.

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« Reply #88 on: July 22, 2011, 04:55:49 PM »
Seanchai, the one making the extremely stupid argument here is you.  You'd have a right to do that, if it wasn't for  the fact that the reason you're doing it is to disrupt this thread for the sake of trying to continue your one-man crusade against my person.  I refuse to believe you're so unbelievably stupid as to not understand the difference between creating a focused setting, and playing a storygame (they have fuck all to do with each other, one is what you do before you start playing, the other is all about how you play).

So its up to you: you can stop derailing this thread, or you can enjoy a golden opportunity to whine to everyone who'll listen, which will be nobody, about how much of a "fascist" I am.

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« Reply #89 on: July 22, 2011, 08:05:32 PM »
Happy birthday, Seanchai.