I'm so bad and wrong that I have even been known to roll dice that mean nothing at all. Just the clattering sound to shore up my authority.

As a GM I roll in the open unless it's something like hide-in-shadows where the thief can't be sure whether they're successful or not. Some of the other guys in the group have crappy GM poker faces, and it's obvious when they're fudging to keep us alive or keep an NPC alive - it kills GM-Player trust IMO and gets everyone grumpy.

Occasionally I'll roll behind the screen for no apparent reason, just to keep the players on their toes. If the players ask, I just say "you don't notice anything unusual". That's as close to a fudge as I get.

Quote from: mcbobbo;592581I'm so bad and wrong that I have even been known to roll dice that mean nothing at all. Just the clattering sound to shore up my authority.

No oone said anything about that.  I think that's fine.

I have never fudged a roll or used a DM screen. Screens create a barrier that limits my ability to role play NPCs and since that is 80% of my DMing it seems a bit of a waste. Especially as I usually have 1 sheet of notes to work off tops.

I often get the PCs to roll dice for no reason though. You know can you all roll 3d6 and tell me the total . Then put a d20 with the highest roll facing up and occassionally increment it down a notch.

A seasoned DM doesn't need to fudge a roll to keep the PCs alive they can just use a sub-optimal tactic for the bad guys or introduce a 'check' so if a PC fails his climb roll give them a dex check to see is they can grab on to something before they fall to their death.

Quote from: jibbajibba;592651I have never fudged a roll or used a DM screen. Screens create a barrier that limits my ability to role play NPCs and since that is 80% of my DMing it seems a bit of a waste. Especially as I usually have 1 sheet of notes to work off tops.

I often get the PCs to roll dice for no reason though. You know can you all roll 3d6 and tell me the total . Then put a d20 with the highest roll facing up and occassionally increment it down a notch.

A seasoned DM doesn't need to fudge a roll to keep the PCs alive they can just use a sub-optimal tactic for the bad guys or introduce a 'check' so if a PC fails his climb roll give them a dex check to see is they can grab on to something before they fall to their death.

one sheet?  Don't worry, I have the other 1120 on my wiki and dozen's more per adventure.

Sheesh.  Talk about proof we all do it differently.

It's not my place to decide this for anyone but myself. I just don't, but that's me.

-clash

Quote from: CRKrueger;592580Shouldn't the long-term good of your campaign depend first on it's legitimacy and integrity?

As there is very little "wargame style" in my games the occasional fudged die roll isn't going the ruin its "integrity" and as long as the players know that occasional fudging can happen there is zero effect on its "legitimacy."

Note also that I did not say how often this happens, just that I reserve the right to do so if I feel it is necessary  I can't remember the last time I actually did this so it's probably been at least a year. I refuse to rule out using a occasionally useful tool just because some do not like the tool and because some poor GMs abuse it. Those who don't like the fact that a die roll might be fudged, need not play. As I've been running games regularly since 1976 and I can count the players who refused to play because of this on the little finger of one hand, it's a non-issue for me.

the only situation I'd see a reason for it is when the roll is meaningless; the GM is simply rolling to build tension.

Otherwise, why roll?

Quote from: LordVreeg;592642No oone said anything about that.  I think that's fine.

I realize that people hate it when I do this, but if they are an authority in one situation then it seems odd to roll them falsely in another.

Quote from: TristramEvans;592661the only situation I'd see a reason for it is when the roll is meaningless; the GM is simply rolling to build tension.

Otherwise, why roll?

Sometimes I see the dice like one of those little angel/devil guys on your shoulder.  If they aren't way out of line, I go with it.  They can do a lot of work that way, and are far from useless.  Sometimes the dice are morons and suggest stupid things.  Not often, but sometimes.

Quote from: mcbobbo;592663Sometimes I see the dice like one of those little angel/devil guys on your shoulder.  If they aren't way out of line, I go with it.  They can do a lot of work that way, and are far from useless.  Sometimes the dice are morons and suggest stupid things.  Not often, but sometimes.

I guess this depends if the dice present more than 2 options or outcomes. If it's a straight yes/no or pass/fail, I can't see the point of fudging them at all.

It's ok for the GM to fudge dice rolls whenever he feels like it. It's a damn game!

edit: Barring the GM showing blatant favoritism for one player over another, of course.

Quote from: Internet Death;592541In that case, you're dealing with a symptom of failed game design.  In a game with rules that make sense, you wouldn't be presented with a die roll that punishes a player for "doing everything right".

Whilst I agree with the sentiment, I don't think RPGs are purely a game in the ordinary sense of the word. They contain a much greater element of self design by the group and require a high level of discretion to operate.

To design rules that are able to cater for every situation or combination of events that can occur in an RPG is very hard task, so its almost inevitable that there may be occassions where, for some groups*, they won't deliver the best result. At those rare points, I would say that fun should rule over the mechanics.

FWIW if such occurrences were regular then this shows that the whole system is just poorly designed and is not fun. At that point, you are best choosing a different RPG.

*Those that don't define the fun they get from playing RPGs purely from adherence to the mechanics.

Quote from: CRKrueger;592559Why use them at all?

It would be cutting off one's nose to spite the face, to drop all mechanics because of the rare occasion that the group's judgement prefers to choose one decision over the one dictated by those mechanics.

There is no doubt that the use of dice have a very important role to play in RPGs and creating tension. This needs to be respected, but I don't think it should be the paramount concern for all RPGing.

Quote from: TristramEvans;592661the only situation I'd see a reason for it is when the roll is meaningless; the GM is simply rolling to build tension.

Otherwise, why roll?

I agree with this too. A good GM will be one that will choose when to make rolls to avoid the need to fudge dice altogether. However, the reality is that GMs are not infallible, even good ones, so mistakes are made.

This also begs the questions as to what constitutes fudging? As a GM, I can make much more egregious calls than fudging a roll to influence a result, but it wouldn't trip the fudging threshold. The classic example is simply calling for more rolls to promote PC failure RPGs will not have a definite timeframe attached to roll, so the GM can effectively fudge way before they get anywhere near the dice. The GM can also railroad past the dice roll even needing to be made.

This kind of behaviour is IMO much worse than fudging the odd dice roll in an attempt to avoid an unfun situation.

About the only time I can think of is "if he is running a game he really doesn't like and didn't have time to mod it so is compensating on the fly."

I'm of the philosophy Don't Roll the Dice Unless You Are Willing to Pay the Price. If you don't want to abide by the dice roll, why did you bother rolling the dice in the first place?

Don't put that death trap in your game unless you want PCs to die.
Don't use dice to resolve diplomacy if you know how its going to go.
Etc.

Dice are a tool that add surprise and tension to a game, but if you convince players there is no risk, they lose that benefit, so why bother?

The first rule of fudging dice rolls is: you do not talk about fudging dice rolls.

The second rule about fudging dice rolls is: you do not talk about fudging dice rolls!

The third rule - you get the idea.