Quote from: dar;219238I would not want to play in a game where PC's can't die. Even for stupid reasons, sometimes those times are the most profound. I site your very post as proof.

I wouldn't either. I like adventures to have few risks, but I like those risks to be real.

Quote from: dar;219238I would not want to play in a game where PC's can't die. Even for stupid reasons, sometimes those times are the most profound. I site your very post as proof.

There's two different issues there. The one you're raising is: is PC death on the table? Fine, but the other issue is the conflicted role of the GM. Jackalope wants to provide a challenging environment without killing chrs due to his own mistakes, which in the long run is almost impossible (since we all make mistakes). As I say, I prefer to run games where the GM doesn't have to walk on eggshells.

I get that, but I think they go hand in hand.

To restate I'd say I would rather play in a game that is dangerous to PC's. One where it's understood that PC's will die and the GM, as you say, does not walk on eggshells.

Quote from: Jackalope;219057Shaking my head, I roll the die, and rather than roll it behind the screen, I roll it right into the middle of the minis and the combat, all set to say "See, he missed you big baby."

It's a 20.  A critical hit.  So I roll to confirm, reacting so quickly that I forget to roll behind the screen, and it's a 17.

Why do you roll dice behind a screen? Let them fall where they may I say!

Quote from: Saphim;219075I don't think you can do much more than apology and make sure it doesn't happen again...

Please do not be offended if I interpret this wrong, but the above is a joke, right?


Jack, a PC in your game has perished...Big deal!. You said you ran an NPC wrong...big deal!

Do you know any player who runs his character perfectly 100% of the time? The GM must run dozens of them. I think a few, or even lots, of mistakes are to be expected and accepted gracefully.

I don't understand what the purpose of your post was, well except maybe sharing a gaming story with us. The player is fine with what happened so what's the problem? Had he had whined and bitched then you might have one, but it would be caused by him, not you.

It's not your job to keep PCs alive that's the player's job.

Don't want to get crited by an orc? Don't become and adventurer. Go back to the farm and have fun scraping dirt.

I do recommend, for the sake of a more enjoyable gaming experience, that you stop pussying about with rolling dice behind a screen, for a more enjoyable gaming experience.

Quote from: Edsan;219443I do recommend, for the sake of a more enjoyable gaming experience, that you stop pussying about with rolling dice behind a screen, for a more enjoyable gaming experience.

I second this advice!  

Quote from: dar;219395I get that, but I think they go hand in hand.

To restate I'd say I would rather play in a game that is dangerous to PC's. One where it's understood that PC's will die and the GM, as you say, does not walk on eggshells.

Same.

While I agree with the general sentiment of the responders of this thread about letting the dice fall where they may, in situations where the DM's metagaming caused this kind of blunder, I think it's perfectly acceptable to explain to the players that you're going to reverse the outcome and why.  I think that if you feel that is what happened, then that's what you should do.

I can think of two such situations in the game I'm presently running:

1) D&D has no real rules for 'holding someone hostage' (ie putting a knife against the throat as a threat, etc.) so I just DMagic'd it - just made it happen cinematically.  Players griped a little, so I reversed it the next game.

2) Recently they were fighting some monster and it flung a PC across the room and I arbitrarily decided that his magic spear was flung in the other direction, assuming it would just hinder him a little and he'd go get it.  Instead circumstances forced them out of the room and he wasn't able to pick it up.  I reversed that one, too.

Metrivus> Seriously, we need to just find a decent, stable mechanical representation for holding someone hostage already. We have a gun to someone's head or knife at someone's throat like every other session at this point (most recently, when I kneecapped the Empress when we were facing off against her guards).

"Sorry I metagamed, you suffered for it, won't happen again"

Why exactly should this be a joke, especially as jackalope obviously feels bad about what happened.
I get it already, you are all tough roleplayers and have accepted the fate of your characters blah blah blah. Stop trying to convince us, that you guys are ubercool and deal with the situation at hand.
See, I can nowhere in his post see that jackalope is pussying around or whatever else you might throw at him. He is concerned with presenting a realistic (for the gameworld) and fair challenge, he failed, why not apology?
You guys are not calling the shots in his game and any advice that would lead to a "change" in his style is totally worthless as his players and he seem to enjoy the way they play. Otherwise, why would they be there?

Quote from: Metrivus;2194981) D&D has no real rules for 'holding someone hostage' (ie putting a knife against the throat as a threat, etc.) so I just DMagic'd it - just made it happen cinematically.  Players griped a little, so I reversed it the next game.

I ran into that same problem in my last session, when an orc grabbed a slave and tried to take her hostage.  I realized almost immediately as he did it that I didn't know how to handle that, so I had a different slave standing right behind him picking for quartz turn around and drop her pick axe into his head.  Fudged some die rolls and extracted myself  before it became an issue, and the players thought I had planned the whole thing.

I'm thinking a grapple-to-pin followed the next round by a Ready to strike the pinned victim mechanic would work.  Allow a coup de grace since a pinned person is helpless?  I dunno.

Readied attack on an NPC that has few enough hit points not to stand a chance? If anyone tries anything funny, the attack is triggered.

For higher levels, let rogues postpone their sneak attack if they use it to grapple someone who would otherwise qualify. Actually, don't you lose your dex to AC if you're grappling? I may be remembering that wrong.

Quote from: Saphim;219514"Sorry I metagamed, you suffered for it, won't happen again"

Why exactly should this be a joke, especially as jackalope obviously feels bad about what happened. (...) You guys are not calling the shots in his game and any advice that would lead to a "change" in his style is totally worthless as his players and he seem to enjoy the way they play. Otherwise, why would they be there?

Words fail me when I try to respond to the hypocrisy above...

Quote from: Saphim;219514He is concerned with presenting a realistic (for the gameworld) and fair challenge, he failed, why not apology?

Because he didn't fail.

Jack, I think you were playing the stand off NPC much better than you think. You were so into playing that NPC, you felt the same sting the NPC did. That's to be applauded.

It was a decision you made on statistics. I'd bet most of the decisions about what foes to put up against the players is based in statistics. The PC didn't die how you expected, nor how the player expected. If, like me, you can normally see an impending PC carcass from a distance, random deaths do come as a shock but don't blame yourself for it. It didn't sound like an impossible situation, it was just lady luck abandoning the cleric.

The only thing I'd do a little differently is make sure the character gets the full-on death. Be it heroic, dark, touching or insane. It's the character's last scene, make it a big one. Not sure from your write up if you did that but it's a good thing to do. It gives a proper gravity to the situation where the player (and team, and you!) has invested a fair amount of emotional energy into the character. You can do this with bloody last words whispered into the arms of the guilt-wracked NPC, one last thrust hit from the cleric that allows the orc to join the PC in a death triste. Something to mark the effort put into the PC.

Either way, great post, Jackalope.

I honestly don't see the problem in the op. This sounds like a noteworthy and hilarious war story that would never have happened if the dice hadn't interfered this unlikely way.
But then again, I always roll in the open as GM and like it that way.