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Author Topic: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?  (Read 6934 times)

SonTodoGato
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When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?
« on: July 29, 2021, 11:38:15 PM »
Notice how I said the "new school of fantasy"; not just RPGs, but fantasy in general.

How did we go from Frank Frazzetta/Boris Vallejo/Jeff Easley, etc. illustrations, Conan the Cimmerian, Clark Ashton Smith, Sword & Sorcery, 70's psychedelics and 80's metal, hand-drawn art and a "basement" feeling to pauldroncore, freakshit, "anti-racist" soyboy digital art fantasy, in which no character can get harmed and there's lots of cheeky "humor" and anime personalities?

Examples:









It's called progress sweety...


Here's fucking Dark Sun for God's sake:



So my questions would be:

When did this transition take place and what triggered it? (No pun intended, I swear)

I dont think it's political since it's been around way before the 2010's. I think videogames and digital art contributed to a certain extent since they changed the aesthetics. I think anime did the rest; everybody wanted to play either Zero Morningstar, the silver-haired edgelord who has two guns (one possessed by a cheeky devil and another one by an angel who's totally a pervert :333 >__< ), likes blood and cries under the rain while saying "Y-You probably think I'm selfish...", the funny, comic relief freakshit character (the typical bard stereotype). Well, either that or the guy who likes to play out a sexual fantasy.

And then along came "diversity" to top it all off... So they went from the edgy rogue that makes snarky comments about organized religion to playing disabled POC with 4 pages of backstory.

Cave Bear

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Re: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2021, 12:19:07 AM »
The transition towards freakshit started in the 60's, with Elric of Melnibone.

Omega

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Re: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2021, 01:13:46 AM »
Every iteration of the "Moral Guardian" disease has tried to sanitize and pacify RPGs. Sometimes as part of the battlecry. Sometimes as a secondary to the main goals of taking control of gaming.

Storygamers and Pundits Swine were at the forefront of this and still are pushing it.

But the main goal is control and oppression under the guise of freedom and inclusion by co-opting whats been around from the start.

Before the game was even released players on the original D&D sessions were playing and recruiting monsters. That carried over a little to AD&D and then got lost for a bit in 2e before being gradually re-introduced. And on the flip side you could play anything from a human only campaign to everything in between.

5e has gradually been co-opted to push the idea that the DM is not allowed to say "No" or set limits on races, classes, etc. Storygamer, Swine and Forge tactics 101.

Flipped Bird

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Re: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2021, 04:04:03 AM »
The decline of reading skills has a lot to do with it. There are many, many people who only read young adult novels and can't handle stories above a certain level of complexity or with any thematic maturity. I knew people in college who couldn't deal with Are You There, God? It's Me, Margaret. These are not people who want to be challenged when they read something.

When it comes to art, that is entirely due to digital painting and the ease with which publishers can find illustrators who will do passable work for cheap. Many of them are self-taught, but even those who got a fine arts education are doing poorly because of the insertion of things that are extraneous to the production of, you know, "fine art"*. The anime look is an easy shortcut for artists who struggle with faces and hands.

*Brian Eno has this anecdote about being present at the thesis presentation for a batch of art school students; one girl was marked down and reduced to tears because her painting, which was excellent, did not come with a very good artist's statement.

tenbones

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Re: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2021, 07:52:45 AM »
The transition towards freakshit started in the 60's, with Elric of Melnibone.

In fiction - sure, it was written as a rebuke of Tolkien's work (and I'd argue by mischaracterization of Tolkien's intent on Moocock's part - but whatever). But the conceits are ENTIRELY different. You could no more have Elric be accepted by the woke mob before his inevitable actions run afoul of their ideology very quickly.

In Gaming? The Freakshow started in the latter part of the 3e era... And by 4e it was a done deal. There is zero contextualization to D&D's secondary settings, and with their latest announcement, much to my delight, those settings *don't even exist* outside of the current slap-dash freakshow.

Which is fine by me. I have a wall of 1e and 2e Realms, Dragonlance, Greyhawk, Darksun, Spelljammer, and Ravenloft (plus more) to claim as mine to with as I please.


Reckall

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Re: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2021, 07:53:23 AM »



Notice right here a recurring problem with "nuCulture": the nuArt is objectively bad. As someone who both ran a RPG line and, a few years later, a comic book series, I would have refused the second illustration strictly because the art is bad. (*)

Which pairs with nuCthulhu novels being bad, or nuComics like "I'm not Starfire" being published with the kind of art I see in 12-years old hopefuls (it is really terrible, and, most importantly, it has nothing to do with if you agree or not with the comic book contents).

I guess that the "entry barriers" do not exist anymore: anyone can express "zhemselfs", especially if zhe is "progrsssssive". Try to exert any kind of normal editorial content and you are a misogynist crypto-Nazi towards unnormative transcisgenders.

(*) In Italy we have a female writer-artist with the plum name "I Fumetti Brutti" ("The Ugly Comics"). She writes and draws, with hideous scrawlings, stories of transgender people, homosexuality and the like...

...And yet the result is powerful. Apparently she can't draw. Truth is: she mastered her own style, which portrays through "ugly" panels the "ugly situations" that permeate the common life of her characters. She worked a lot before being recognised, and her editor is one of the best in the industry. I have a lot of her books. Isn't it strange how you can perfectly go independent and forge your own successful path through hard work?
For every idiot who denounces Ayn Rand as "intellectualism" there is an excellent DM who creates a "Bioshock" adventure.

SonTodoGato
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Re: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2021, 08:24:47 AM »


Notice right here a recurring problem with "nuCulture": the nuArt is objectively bad. As someone who both ran a RPG line and, a few years later, a comic book series, I would have refused the second illustration strictly because the art is bad. (*)

Which pairs with nuCthulhu novels being bad, or nuComics like "I'm not Starfire" being published with the kind of art I see in 12-years old hopefuls (it is really terrible, and, most importantly, it has nothing to do with if you agree or not with the comic book contents).

I guess that the "entry barriers" do not exist anymore: anyone can express "zhemselfs", especially if zhe is "progrsssssive". Try to exert any kind of normal editorial content and you are a misogynist crypto-Nazi towards unnormative transcisgenders.

(*) In Italy we have a female writer-artist with the plum name "I Fumetti Brutti" ("The Ugly Comics"). She writes and draws, with hideous scrawlings, stories of transgender people, homosexuality and the like...

...And yet the result is powerful. Apparently she can't draw. Truth is: she mastered her own style, which portrays through "ugly" panels the "ugly situations" that permeate the common life of her characters. She worked a lot before being recognised, and her editor is one of the best in the industry. I have a lot of her books. Isn't it strange how you can perfectly go independent and forge your own successful path through hard work?

About the Fumetti Brutti, I don't know man, she strikes me as a feminist kind of author. Kind of like our "Maitena". Romanticizing periods, glorifyng obesity, not waxing, "look at me I masturbate every day", etc. And she confirms my politically incorrect hypothesis about feminists having a preference for rough sex and sexual submission (which she admits herself). Maybe that's why they need to go around screaming how powerful they are; it's overcompensation and guilt. And I bet the author of "I'm not Starfire" has that kind of fetish as well.

Apart from that, I agree with you. "Nu art" is bad indeed, but they play it off as though it is just alternative and quirky; as if they did it on purpose. Adventure time and Cal Arts in general do that. I think what they lack is actually soulful, talented artists who actually sit down and draw, as opposed to using a pc, vectors, templates and computer effects. It's practical effects vs. CGI all over again.



We've all seen this pic but it proves the point exactly. The entry barrier is still there, they reject the ones that don't promote the established artstyle.

Reckall

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Re: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2021, 08:33:28 AM »
The transition towards freakshit started in the 60's, with Elric of Melnibone.

In fiction - sure, it was written as a rebuke of Tolkien's work (and I'd argue by mischaracterization of Tolkien's intent on Moocock's part - but whatever).

I once met Moorcock in London, back in the early '90s. It was a book signing and a conference, at the Forbidden Planet, about "Elric and the Fortress of the Pearl" (which instantaneously devolved into AME).

Moorcock, as usual, said how he didn't like Tolkien's work (he had met the man when he was young, and personally he was totally fine). Regarding Elric, however, he said that "He had took Conan and created a character that was the total opposite - up to have Elric starting as a ruler where Conan started as a barbarian. In that panel he never mentioned The Lord of the Rings in relation with Conan.

My guess is that Moorcock became "The Anti-Tolkien" after The New Yorker published an infamous article with that title. After that, he recognised that it was true - but the only time I saw him "live" he made clear that Elric was a response to Conan, not Tolkien.

I also remember how he totally denied how Elric, and his relationship with Stormbringer, were a metaphor of his relationship with drugs (he didn't deny that he had been a drug user). I was surprised, because to me this metaphor was both clear and powerful, but that's what he said.

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But the conceits are ENTIRELY different. You could no more have Elric be accepted by the woke mob before his inevitable actions run afoul of their ideology very quickly.

I did a bit of Google-fu and, strangely, he is still not cancelled. Maybe his constant flogging of Lovecraft is helping

[Fun fact: since both Call of Cthulhu and Stormbringer's RPGs are based on the BRP, and I worked on the Italian edition of both published by Stratelibri, one of the first thing we did was to send the Mythos to Melnibone. We never published the rules on the then Stratelibri official magazine, but I remember that we did a box about "It can be done!" when we presented the Italian edition of Stormbringer.  ;D]
« Last Edit: July 30, 2021, 08:35:13 AM by Reckall »
For every idiot who denounces Ayn Rand as "intellectualism" there is an excellent DM who creates a "Bioshock" adventure.

tenbones

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Re: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2021, 08:43:02 AM »
If Moorcock ever gets caught in the public eye - should there ever be an Elric TV series or something... oh you bet your ass they'll come after him.

Yeah I can see the whole Conan vs. Elric starting points, I don't consider Elric or anything from Moorcock equivalent to the TTRPG Freakshow today because Moorcocks work is rock solid in its context within its own sandbox.

Modern D&D is a mishmash of shit that they're curating for purposes OUTSIDE the context of their established lore - and now that they've officially jettisoned that lore, much like Star Wars, they're now going to show everyone what they think is "D&D". It will be good for a laugh.

Chris24601

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Re: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2021, 09:38:56 AM »
Yeah I can see the whole Conan vs. Elric starting points, I don't consider Elric or anything from Moorcock equivalent to the TTRPG Freakshow today because Moorcocks work is rock solid in its context within its own sandbox.
And therein I think is a critical point. The issue is not that Dragonborn and Tieflings exist; its that they are being shoved into settings that did not previously have them (or at least not at the level of common species). They make perfect sense in the Neranth setting (the default for 4E) because they’re woven into the world’s history (they’re honestly more integral to that setting than elves, dwarves or halflings), but they had to drop yet another cataclysm on the Realms to drop the 4E races into it.

Armchair Gamer

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Re: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2021, 09:45:36 AM »
Modern D&D is a mishmash of shit that they're curating for purposes OUTSIDE the context of their established lore - and now that they've officially jettisoned that lore, much like Star Wars, they're now going to show everyone what they think is "D&D". It will be good for a laugh.

   D&D has always been a mishmash and farrago of various fantasy influences--it's just what the fantasy influences are have changed over 50 years. And trying to divide it between 'old' and 'new' is, IMO, an oversimplification--I can identify at least five different styles (OD&D/early AD&D pulp fantasy, post-Gygax high fantasy, 3E dungeonpunk, 4E high-flash, and 5E swashbuckling Seattle romance), and that's without even trying or taking into account various strands within each tradition, such as early D&D's tensions between pulp sword & sorcery and medieval wargaming.

Chris24601

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Re: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2021, 09:58:52 AM »
Modern D&D is a mishmash of shit that they're curating for purposes OUTSIDE the context of their established lore - and now that they've officially jettisoned that lore, much like Star Wars, they're now going to show everyone what they think is "D&D". It will be good for a laugh.

   D&D has always been a mishmash and farrago of various fantasy influences--it's just what the fantasy influences are have changed over 50 years. And trying to divide it between 'old' and 'new' is, IMO, an oversimplification--I can identify at least five different styles (OD&D/early AD&D pulp fantasy, post-Gygax high fantasy, 3E dungeonpunk, 4E high-flash, and 5E swashbuckling Seattle romance), and that's without even trying or taking into account various strands within each tradition, such as early D&D's tensions between pulp sword & sorcery and medieval wargaming.
“New school” is anything past the point where the style matches your preferences.

Ghostmaker

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Re: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2021, 10:12:55 AM »
Yeah I can see the whole Conan vs. Elric starting points, I don't consider Elric or anything from Moorcock equivalent to the TTRPG Freakshow today because Moorcocks work is rock solid in its context within its own sandbox.
And therein I think is a critical point. The issue is not that Dragonborn and Tieflings exist; its that they are being shoved into settings that did not previously have them (or at least not at the level of common species). They make perfect sense in the Neranth setting (the default for 4E) because they’re woven into the world’s history (they’re honestly more integral to that setting than elves, dwarves or halflings), but they had to drop yet another cataclysm on the Realms to drop the 4E races into it.
Yeah, there's a bad problem of 'remember the new guy' with adding those races. Dragonborn are definitely the worst offenders; they had to shoehorn in an entire new continent into FR to add them (at least there was precedent with tieflings, since outsiders from the lower planes had been causing problems in Faerun since its inception).

If dragonborn had been the result of dragons developing agents to go out into the world and handle the various issues arising post-3E (Spellplague, etc), it would've fit better.

Reckall

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Re: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2021, 10:51:46 AM »

About the Fumetti Brutti, I don't know man, she strikes me as a feminist kind of author. Kind of like our "Maitena". Romanticizing periods, glorifyng obesity, not waxing, "look at me I masturbate every day", etc. And she confirms my politically incorrect hypothesis about feminists having a preference for rough sex and sexual submission (which she admits herself).

I could say "So what?" I'm interested in hearing from everyone who says interesting things. "Interesting" is neither good nor bad, neither right nor wrong, neither just nor evil. Interesting is... Interesting.

I read "Anestesia" a few months ago, and it really touched me. Others' mileage may vary.

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Maybe that's why they need to go around screaming how powerful they are;

I'm pretty sure that a percentage of people feel that need - imagine when they stumble into something done right. However...

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it's overcompensation and guilt. And I bet the author of "I'm not Starfire" has that kind of fetish as well.

Maybe. I don't know. However, "I Fumetti Brutti" creates her own world and her own characters. The authors of "I'm not Starfire" start by molesting an existing franchise. That's already a red flag. History teaches that the lack of faith and talent needed for creating your own franchise will be expressed with an uncreative approach to the themes paired with untalented art - all with the hope that an established brand will propel you anyway (see also "Winter Tide" and "Fate of Cthulhu") And the art of "I'm not Starfire" is horrid; horrid for real, not as a researched style fruit of hard work.

This means that "I Fumetti Brutti" sells to people interested in what she has to say. "I'm not Starfire", instead, is exactly that: an intrusion in a line whose readers are not interested in those topics (and a badly drawn one, BTW). No one wants to be lectured in Star Wars, Ghostbusters or Terminator, and those franchises and many others paid dearly for this mistake.

[Educational link: https://web.archive.org/web/20210415144433/https://www.oneangrygamer.net/get-woke-go-broke-the-master-list/]

I could be a fan of the American edition of "The Ugly Comics" but when I buy "Starfire" I want both Starfire (or a good spin-off of Starfire) and the minimum level of quality in the art department I expect from that comic book line.

[Not to mention how it turned out that a "Young Adult" comic has contents inappropriate for that age band...]

Ironically, a look at the American comic book industry shows that some sectors are doing really well. Authors like Raina Telgemeier are amazingly popular among young girls. And, lo!, think what you want about her, but she created her own characters and her own world. Marvel and DC are struggling in this sector (mostly because they lack the understanding and the experience). The result is that they publish something that the readers of Raina Telgemeier will never even consider while losing the readers of Starfire in the process.

Meanwhile, the twenty most sold adult graphic novels in America are constantly all manga. Time for the that part of the industry to get a clue.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2021, 10:53:32 AM by Reckall »
For every idiot who denounces Ayn Rand as "intellectualism" there is an excellent DM who creates a "Bioshock" adventure.

JeffB

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Re: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2021, 11:03:50 AM »
August 1st 2000.






You said "exactly".