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Author Topic: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?  (Read 2971 times)

Aglondir

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Re: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?
« Reply #45 on: July 31, 2021, 05:20:39 PM »
There was a picture of a what looked like an English footman being menaced by a monster: https://5e.tools/img/bestiary/MTF/Nightwalker.jpg
Love that piece. Has a Symbaorum vibe to it.

Overall you get railed for representing fantasy medieval Europe at all—-the roots of the game.  As you push further away from knights and castles (too Eurocentric, I am sure) a normal adventuring party gets rarer and rarer.  The other element is totally cultural.  The cutesy fan art is ubiquitous.  Tastes have changed.  Old D&D players were inspired by older things.
I've noticed this too. Paizo gave away the Pathfinder2 pdf for free. I deleted it 10 minutes later. I couldn't stand the cutesy art. That's was a first, in decades of gaming.

What I know for fact is the new Star Trek homoerotic wizard schools leaves me pretty cold.  Uninspiring and unexciting to say the very least.
You lost me there-- what's a Star Trek homoerotic wizard school? I only have the 5E PhB (and soon will be rid of that.)


DocJones

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Re: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?
« Reply #46 on: July 31, 2021, 05:26:00 PM »
These are the first things that come off my head. Generally speaking, Parkinson's work shows a guy who has mastered his talent and knows to convey the spirit of what he is illustrating in the best possible way. The second image is done by someone who apes better artists, but who still has to understand that cramming everything together and failing at the basic use of colors only shows how he still has a long road in front of him.
The characters equipment and armor in the second painting are ridiculously large. 
It's unwearable.  It reminds me of this review of miniatures: Fantasy character designs may be sillier than you thought
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Premier

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Re: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?
« Reply #47 on: July 31, 2021, 05:26:37 PM »
The first one is by the late Keith Parkinson, one of the "big four" of D&D and esp. "Dragonlance" (along with Elmore, Easley and Caldwell).

The first thing you notice about the second one
[..]

Not to argue (I agree that the second picture is not good), I'll just add that composition is totally whacked. (Like you said, it feels like a collage.)

What is the elf archer looking at? Certainly not at any of the other individuals in the picture. She's looking at something outside the picture. What about the dwarf? I guess the artist intended him to look at the giant tiger guy, but if you look at where their feet are on the ground, it was a failure: his face is not turned towards that guy. Same thing with the chick with a ridiculously oversized hammer: if I had a gun pressed to my head, I'd guess she's supposed to be looking at the green skinned ogre-like thing, but once again, the direction of her gaze just isn't going in that direction.
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Dapig

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Re: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?
« Reply #48 on: July 31, 2021, 05:43:34 PM »
There was a picture of a what looked like an English footman being menaced by a monster: https://5e.tools/img/bestiary/MTF/Nightwalker.jpg
Love that piece. Has a Symbaorum vibe to it.

Overall you get railed for representing fantasy medieval Europe at all—-the roots of the game.  As you push further away from knights and castles (too Eurocentric, I am sure) a normal adventuring party gets rarer and rarer.  The other element is totally cultural.  The cutesy fan art is ubiquitous.  Tastes have changed.  Old D&D players were inspired by older things.
I've noticed this too. Paizo gave away the Pathfinder2 pdf for free. I deleted it 10 minutes later. I couldn't stand the cutesy art. That's was a first, in decades of gaming.

What I know for fact is the new Star Trek homoerotic wizard schools leaves me pretty cold.  Uninspiring and unexciting to say the very least.
You lost me there-- what's a Star Trek homoerotic wizard school? I only have the 5E PhB (and soon will be rid of that.)

Haha sorry for the tangential rant!  The Star Trek homoerotic wizard school refers to recent “strixhaven?” Art.  It’s mostly gay blue elves and tieflings at a dance. I mean whatever on your choice of partner but we could not get further way from knight, barbarians and traditional elements.  And they are groovin to some techno pop I am sure, in line with what D&D is all about 🙄
AD&D 1e, D&D 5e

Svenhelgrim

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Re: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?
« Reply #49 on: July 31, 2021, 05:45:33 PM »
The transition towards freakshit started in the 60's, with Elric of Melnibone.

Do tell.

Eirikrautha

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Re: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?
« Reply #50 on: July 31, 2021, 08:36:37 PM »
I don't believe that there is a definable break point. The change has been gradual and is still ongoing.

I have to agree with this.

There was no single polarizing moment. This has been a gradual progression (like cancer or a mold) that happened as the internet and social media became more commonly used - as social Marxists and other crazies began talking to each other and organizing into communities, then the SJWs arose organically from that to try and smash the established institutions.
I don't necessarily believe that the "new" art is inherently linked to specific politics.
Incorrect.  The philosophical basis of the SJW movement is based around the erasure of history (this is year zero, and next year will be, too) and the "democratization" of the arts (with democratization defined as allowing the ordinary practitioner the same prestige as a master of the craft).  This is exemplified in the "Cal-Arts" style of animation: a simplistic style that is easily replicated and doesn't require great expertise to draw (which also makes it commercially appealing, as it is cheap to produce).  Many other modern artistic disciplines also distain technical expertise in favor of more pedestrian (and political) styles.  Politics (or the implicit philosophical underpinnings of a particular politics) has definitely had a large effect on the kinds of art that have been produced in the last 20 years plus.

HappyDaze

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Re: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?
« Reply #51 on: July 31, 2021, 11:00:56 PM »
I don't believe that there is a definable break point. The change has been gradual and is still ongoing.

I have to agree with this.

There was no single polarizing moment. This has been a gradual progression (like cancer or a mold) that happened as the internet and social media became more commonly used - as social Marxists and other crazies began talking to each other and organizing into communities, then the SJWs arose organically from that to try and smash the established institutions.
I don't necessarily believe that the "new" art is inherently linked to specific politics.
Incorrect.  The philosophical basis of the SJW movement is based around the erasure of history (this is year zero, and next year will be, too) and the "democratization" of the arts (with democratization defined as allowing the ordinary practitioner the same prestige as a master of the craft).  This is exemplified in the "Cal-Arts" style of animation: a simplistic style that is easily replicated and doesn't require great expertise to draw (which also makes it commercially appealing, as it is cheap to produce).  Many other modern artistic disciplines also distain technical expertise in favor of more pedestrian (and political) styles.  Politics (or the implicit philosophical underpinnings of a particular politics) has definitely had a large effect on the kinds of art that have been produced in the last 20 years plus.
Just because you make that connection doesn't mean it isn't nonsense.

Eirikrautha

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Re: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?
« Reply #52 on: July 31, 2021, 11:29:46 PM »
I don't believe that there is a definable break point. The change has been gradual and is still ongoing.

I have to agree with this.

There was no single polarizing moment. This has been a gradual progression (like cancer or a mold) that happened as the internet and social media became more commonly used - as social Marxists and other crazies began talking to each other and organizing into communities, then the SJWs arose organically from that to try and smash the established institutions.
I don't necessarily believe that the "new" art is inherently linked to specific politics.
Incorrect.  The philosophical basis of the SJW movement is based around the erasure of history (this is year zero, and next year will be, too) and the "democratization" of the arts (with democratization defined as allowing the ordinary practitioner the same prestige as a master of the craft).  This is exemplified in the "Cal-Arts" style of animation: a simplistic style that is easily replicated and doesn't require great expertise to draw (which also makes it commercially appealing, as it is cheap to produce).  Many other modern artistic disciplines also distain technical expertise in favor of more pedestrian (and political) styles.  Politics (or the implicit philosophical underpinnings of a particular politics) has definitely had a large effect on the kinds of art that have been produced in the last 20 years plus.
Just because you make that connection doesn't mean it isn't nonsense.
Just because you don't, doesn't mean it is.

Omega

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Re: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?
« Reply #53 on: August 01, 2021, 04:28:20 AM »
If Moorcock ever gets caught in the public eye - should there ever be an Elric TV series or something... oh you bet your ass they'll come after him.

Yeah I can see the whole Conan vs. Elric starting points, I don't consider Elric or anything from Moorcock equivalent to the TTRPG Freakshow today because Moorcocks work is rock solid in its context within its own sandbox.


1: Oh the last and current editions of this mental disease have gone after Moorcock. But usually from odd angles and so far nothing big that I have seen.

Prior and current versions of the cult have used the battle cry of "its anti Albino!" which was also tossed at the 2nd Matrix movie and a few others. Which as usual gets albinos blacklisted as a viable character option in media, even sanitized and PC, because damned if you do and more damned if you dont conform so... DONT.

2: He has some jabs and jibes and jokes at various characters over the years. Some pretty funny. Keep in mind that this is fairly common in the writing biz. Be it friendly in-jokes like between Lovecraft and his friends. To not so friendly jabs at grifters like Ellison. Also pops up in the comics biz too. Especially indie comics. Sometimes up to artists doing segments for eachother.

Reckall

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Re: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?
« Reply #54 on: August 01, 2021, 06:43:35 AM »


As someone who both ran a RPG line and, a few years later, a comic book series, I would have refused the second illustration strictly because the art is bad.

Out of curiosity, what would you say makes the second picture "bad" and the first "good" (or at least acceptable)?  I ask from the perspective of someone who knows nothing about art theory, and sees only two pictures both done with a technical competence I certainly couldn't deliver myself.

I am certainly not a fan of the style of the second painting vs. the first, but a difference in taste is not the same as a criticism of quality, I think.

Just want to comment that the first picture is from Everquest, where you can play a dark elf or a catman or a lizard man. :D Positivley "New School" gaming there.

These are the first things that come off my head. Generally speaking, Parkinson's work shows a guy who has mastered his talent and knows to convey the spirit of what he is illustrating in the best possible way. The second image is done by someone who apes better artists, but who still has to understand that cramming everything together and failing at the basic use of colors only shows how he still has a long road in front of him.

Certainly. The second image has a "collage" look, where everything looks like it's been cut out of a magazine and pasted onto a background.
But then, a lot of art from older D&D is pretty bad. Or pretty good, depending on the piece. Quality isn't a defining trait of old school.

I agree. I was simply comparing those two pictures.

However, when "old school" artists are as good as Elmore or Parkinson, they are, IMHO, often better than nuSchool. Only a few days ago I opened up the Basic Set (Red Box) and famous illustrations as the one for the Cleric are hard to see these days:



Some 4E artists were technically good, but the request was to produce illustrations with the POW underground, "superheroically" tilted, stunningly crammed and with vanishing points in the next timezone. Like the game they worked for, they became laughable fast.

Here, for example, we have an illustration by Ralph Horsley. I guess it depicts a cool scene - once you have worked four days to decipher it:


For every idiot who denounces Ayn Rand as "intellectualism" there is an excellent DM who creates a "Bioshock" adventure.

Pat

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Re: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?
« Reply #55 on: August 01, 2021, 07:08:47 AM »
Here, for example, we have an illustration by Ralph Horsley. I guess it depicts a cool scene - once you have worked four days to decipher it:


I see a tiefling with elephant man's disease, a zombie elf who appears to be all torso, an armored warrior, and Lidda attacking a beard-tentacled dwarf and his rabbit and bird friends.

Reckall

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Re: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?
« Reply #56 on: August 01, 2021, 07:20:43 AM »
Here, for example, we have an illustration by Ralph Horsley. I guess it depicts a cool scene - once you have worked four days to decipher it:


I see a tiefling with elephant man's disease, a zombie elf who appears to be all torso, an armored warrior, and Lidda attacking a beard-tentacled dwarf and his rabbit and bird friends.

Oh, there is Lidda too in there! You are right!
For every idiot who denounces Ayn Rand as "intellectualism" there is an excellent DM who creates a "Bioshock" adventure.

S'mon

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Re: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?
« Reply #57 on: August 01, 2021, 07:34:59 AM »
Here, for example, we have an illustration by Ralph Horsley. I guess it depicts a cool scene - once you have worked four days to decipher it:


I see a tiefling with elephant man's disease, a zombie elf who appears to be all torso, an armored warrior, and Lidda attacking a beard-tentacled dwarf and his rabbit and bird friends.

Oh, there is Lidda too in there! You are right!

I think that's Lidda Tordek & Regdar from 3e. They seem to have been the Iconics in the early 4e books too.

Reckall

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Re: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?
« Reply #58 on: August 01, 2021, 07:44:32 AM »
Here, for example, we have an illustration by Ralph Horsley. I guess it depicts a cool scene - once you have worked four days to decipher it:


I see a tiefling with elephant man's disease, a zombie elf who appears to be all torso, an armored warrior, and Lidda attacking a beard-tentacled dwarf and his rabbit and bird friends.

Oh, there is Lidda too in there! You are right!

I think that's Lidda Tordek & Regdar from 3e. They seem to have been the Iconics in the early 4e books too.

What I meant is that I totally didn't see her. I was straining my eyes trying to understand if the magic user in the middle was one or two characters.
For every idiot who denounces Ayn Rand as "intellectualism" there is an excellent DM who creates a "Bioshock" adventure.

Flipped Bird

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Re: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?
« Reply #59 on: August 01, 2021, 08:16:57 AM »
What are you guys talking about? That is just a rectangle filled up by streaks of brown and purple.