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Author Topic: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?  (Read 6922 times)

SonTodoGato
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Re: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2021, 11:05:23 AM »
I can identify at least five different styles (OD&D/early AD&D pulp fantasy, post-Gygax high fantasy, 3E dungeonpunk, 4E high-flash, and 5E swashbuckling Seattle romance), and that's without even trying or taking into account various strands within each tradition, such as early D&D's tensions between pulp sword & sorcery and medieval wargaming.

Go on...

SonTodoGato
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Re: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2021, 11:13:48 AM »
Meanwhile, the twenty most sold adult graphic novels in America are constantly all manga. Time for the that part of the industry to get a clue.

If there's one good thing about Japan is that they won't lecture everyone on the moral obligation to be a democrat.

Slambo

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Re: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2021, 12:27:38 PM »
Its harry potter isn't it?

Reckall

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Re: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2021, 01:07:11 PM »
Its harry potter isn't it?

J.K. Rowling is currently under the bus, so, no. If it was yes, then HP had been retconned to no.

[I never bothered to understand why JKR is currently cancelled - and I don't think I will.]
For every idiot who denounces Ayn Rand as "intellectualism" there is an excellent DM who creates a "Bioshock" adventure.

jhkim

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Re: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2021, 01:20:49 PM »
Its harry potter isn't it?

It depends how one slices it. I think the OP is making old school to be authors like Tolkien, Howard (Conan), and Lieber (Fafhrd) in the 1950s to 1970s -- which were the original genre of D&D.

The new school as characterized seems more like modern authors such as Rowling (Harry Potter), Pratchett (Discworld), Riordan (Percy Jackson) -- aimed more at younger readers, where the protagonists are more likely to be adolescent, and the fantasy more whimsical.

But of course, there's been plenty of variety of fantasy. There's always been whimsical fantasy for younger readers -- like Baum (Oz), Lewis (Narnia), and so forth. And there's always been plenty of authors like Le Guin and Moorcock who don't fit into either camp.

I think actually D&D and video games have been a major influence towards more whimsical fantasy, actually.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2021, 01:23:05 PM by jhkim »

SonTodoGato
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Re: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2021, 01:27:53 PM »
[I never bothered to understand why JKR is currently cancelled - and I don't think I will.]

Basically she said trans aren't women. Her own feminist, woke cult eventually turned against her. She started with Hermione is black and Dumbledore is gay... and now the golem turned against her because she's a "TERF" (trans-exclusionary radical feminist). Glad it happened.

Steven Mitchell

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Re: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2021, 01:57:21 PM »
I don't know when it started, but if you could graph it over time, I'd bet you a case of doughnuts that it would correlate very strongly to the expanded range of what is considered adolescence.  That is, people are staying in adolescence longer, sometimes on purpose, and society is a lot more tolerant of that now.  This creates an huge, expanded market of adolescent tastes to satisfy. 

It's always been true that some people never grow out of that stage. They weren't always celebrated. 

If I'm correct, one big marker would be when the legal drinking age in the USA was increased to 21.

KingCheops

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Re: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2021, 02:00:55 PM »
[I never bothered to understand why JKR is currently cancelled - and I don't think I will.]

Basically she said trans aren't women. Her own feminist, woke cult eventually turned against her. She started with Hermione is black and Dumbledore is gay... and now the golem turned against her because she's a "TERF" (trans-exclusionary radical feminist). Glad it happened.

Not even that.  She was arguing that girls struggle to understand their sexuality when they're teens so doctors and society shouldn't be pushing teen girls or younger to become boys.  She asserted that a Tom Boy is a thing and is a good thing as an expression of themselves (a position echoed by many lesbians afraid they're getting replaced by trans).  But this isn't allowed in the Cathedral.

SonTodoGato
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Re: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2021, 02:03:24 PM »
So it's even more stupid than I previously thought?

How dare you say that we should be extremely cautions when advising young people to perform permanent, life-changing surgeries?!

jhkim

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Re: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2021, 02:40:05 PM »
I don't know when it started, but if you could graph it over time, I'd bet you a case of doughnuts that it would correlate very strongly to the expanded range of what is considered adolescence.  That is, people are staying in adolescence longer, sometimes on purpose, and society is a lot more tolerant of that now.  This creates an huge, expanded market of adolescent tastes to satisfy. 

It's always been true that some people never grow out of that stage. They weren't always celebrated. 

If I'm correct, one big marker would be when the legal drinking age in the USA was increased to 21.

From what I read, most states had a legal drinking age of 21 from the end of prohibition in 1933. That stayed that way for decades, but with the 26th Amendment in 1971, the voting age was reduced to 18 as a standard, and many states also reduced the drinking age to 18, but the drinking age was increased to 21 again after the 1984 federal law that tied federal highway funds to a minimum drinking age of 21 or older.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._history_of_alcohol_minimum_purchase_age_by_state

I think what you're talking about is different, though -- it's more the change in demographics after the 1980s. After the Baby Boomers, the trend has been to have fewer children later in life. Children have then been more sheltered later into life -- and as part of the same trend, it's been much harder to detach from one's parents due to the increased costs of college and housing.

Flipped Bird

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Re: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2021, 02:48:41 PM »
So it's even more stupid than I previously thought?

How dare you say that we should be extremely cautions when advising young people to perform permanent, life-changing surgeries?!

The only thing worse than a heretic is an apostate.

Aglondir

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Re: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?
« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2021, 04:03:46 PM »
[I never bothered to understand why JKR is currently cancelled - and I don't think I will.]

Basically she said trans aren't women. Her own feminist, woke cult eventually turned against her. She started with Hermione is black and Dumbledore is gay... and now the golem turned against her because she's a "TERF" (trans-exclusionary radical feminist). Glad it happened.
There was also the African magic school debacle. The Woke Mob demanded to know why there were wizards in England and Europe but not Africa. She actually had considered that, and posted some of her initial ideas. She was immediately struggled with "Why is there only one school, when white people get three? Are you aware there are many different cultures in Africa? Do you think all Africans are the same? Are you, as a white person, qualified to write about them? Etc."

What a surprise.

My theory is that Rowling is being rejected by the Wokists because the novels actually have conservative (ish) elements:

- Definite good vs. definite evil
- Boys and girls fall in love, get married, start families
- People are judged by their merits and accomplishments, rather than their identity
- Intelligence and hard work are rewarded
- Duty and self-sacrifice for the greater good
- The soul exists, as well as an afterlife
- Masculinity and fatherhood are positive (rather than universally toxic)


Some liberal elements as well. But I don't see the novels or Rowling as Woke.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2021, 04:05:45 PM by Aglondir »

Reckall

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Re: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?
« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2021, 05:08:14 PM »
[I never bothered to understand why JKR is currently cancelled - and I don't think I will.]

Basically she said trans aren't women. Her own feminist, woke cult eventually turned against her. She started with Hermione is black and Dumbledore is gay... and now the golem turned against her because she's a "TERF" (trans-exclusionary radical feminist). Glad it happened.
There was also the African magic school debacle. The Woke Mob demanded to know why there were wizards in England and Europe but not Africa. She actually had considered that, and posted some of her initial ideas. She was immediately struggled with "Why is there only one school, when white people get three? Are you aware there are many different cultures in Africa? Do you think all Africans are the same? Are you, as a white person, qualified to write about them? Etc."

I'm currently writing a comic book script with a female blind criminologist. I guess I'll have to stop, since I'm neither of these three things.
For every idiot who denounces Ayn Rand as "intellectualism" there is an excellent DM who creates a "Bioshock" adventure.

Shasarak

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Re: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?
« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2021, 05:30:34 PM »
I would probably estimate that new school started in June 2008 and boy its been a hell of a ride so far.
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SonTodoGato
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Re: When did the "New school" of fantasy begin, exactly?
« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2021, 05:47:15 PM »

There was also the African magic school debacle. The Woke Mob demanded to know why there were wizards in England and Europe but not Africa. She actually had considered that, and posted some of her initial ideas. She was immediately struggled with "Why is there only one school, when white people get three? Are you aware there are many different cultures in Africa? Do you think all Africans are the same? Are you, as a white person, qualified to write about them? Etc."

What a surprise.

My theory is that Rowling is being rejected by the Wokists because the novels actually have conservative (ish) elements:

- Definite good vs. definite evil
- Boys and girls fall in love, get married, start families
- People are judged by their merits and accomplishments, rather than their identity
- Intelligence and hard work are rewarded
- Duty and self-sacrifice for the greater good
- The soul exists, as well as an afterlife
- Masculinity and fatherhood are positive (rather than universally toxic)


Some liberal elements as well. But I don't see the novels or Rowling as Woke.

That's what she gets for giving in. She gave them the african school of wizards they demanded and then it wasn't enough. Should've told them to fuck off right off the bat. They were NEVER interested in the school, they just wanted to do leftist revisionism upon her for not bowing to the "oppressed" ever since the 90's.