Character Optimization may have been with us from the beginning, but it didn't seem to start (at least for me) until RPGA play during the era of AD&D 2E. There seemed to be an arms race that concentrated on getting specific certificates of magic items from Raven's Bluff modules then.

Is that when it became prominent, or was it just starting then?

Quote from: jeff37923;563020Character Optimization may have been with us from the beginning, but it didn't seem to start (at least for me) until RPGA play during the era of AD&D 2E. There seemed to be an arms race that concentrated on getting specific certificates of magic items from Raven's Bluff modules then.

Is that when it became prominent, or was it just starting then?

I'd say blame Hero and GURPS.  Point based  character creation led to tweaking, which led to CharOp.

Melee and Wizard.

Quote from: Panzerkraken;563021I'd say blame Hero and GURPS.  Point based  character creation led to tweaking, which led to CharOp.

Is there really any way to CharOp in 2e? You pretty much get what you get. As characters advanced in level I'd say those with the potential to optimise (wizards and priests) did so.

Quote from: Panzerkraken;563021I'd say blame Hero and GURPS.  Point based  character creation led to tweaking, which led to CharOp.

Yeah, CharOp as we use the term is a feature of point-based systems. And after 3e, RAW D&D with its class levels, feats and wealth by level guidelines is a point-based system.

There used to be people abusing the rules before that, though. People who "rolled" suspiciously many 18s, ran one of the character kits from Mein Elf, or got their hands on +8 vorpal maces (actual story) and multiple wands of Orcus (also an actual story).

vorpal ... mace ...

does not compute

Quote from: The Traveller;563024Is there really any way to CharOp in 2e? You pretty much get what you get. As characters advanced in level I'd say those with the potential to optimise (wizards and priests) did so.

Those brown-cover "Complete [your class here] Handbook" titles allowed for considerable optimization. When the Complete Fighters Handbook came out, I started playing a swashbuckler, and the old-school plate & shield fighter was all like WTF? because I had the same AC as him wearing leather armor. Don't ask me how; my copy of that book is long gone. But yeah, it was possible. It really started getting ridiculous in 3E, IMHO. The last time I played 3.5, our Druid's stupidly over-optimized animal companion had better combat statistics than our (theoretically optimized) Fighter.

I also agree with the above poster who pointed out that point-buy systems make optimization easier. In a well-designed point-buy system, this should involve trade-offs to keep "optimized" characters' power levels in check. In practice, players obsessed with optimization usually find ways to "beat" such systems. As far as I'm concerned, this is a problem with certain players, rather than the games. Sure, I can design a 60-point spell for Fantasy Hero which lets me literally conjure up a mountain out of thin air and drop it on my foe from a great height: game over! Why I'd want to do that, I have no idea. But some players would, and I don't game with them.

Before the "Complete ... Handbooks" series it was the spells and equipment selections, the Monty Haul games where the characters walked around with golf bags full of different sorts of swords and stuff. CharOp is just a different spin on the whole idea that plays on the character build before play begins rather than just powergaming to game itself.

Quote from: Xavier Onassiss;563037I also agree with the above poster who pointed out that point-buy systems make optimization easier. In a well-designed point-buy system, this should involve trade-offs to keep "optimized" characters' power levels in check. In practice,

I don't see any reason that players should start out with suboptimal characters, which is why I find the D&D level system mildly ludicrous, I mean everyone wants to play a hero so why play as a zero, but yes a tradeoff is important for the more game wrecking optimisations (combat related).

The players option stuff in 2.5 was when it really became a big thing. Skills and Powers was so abusable it just wasn't funny. To a certain extent it's inevitable that more options = more variability in effectiveness between the options = more optimisation.

Quote from: The Traveller;563045I don't see any reason that players should start out with suboptimal characters, which is why I find the D&D level system mildly ludicrous, I mean everyone wants to play a hero so why play as a zero, but yes a tradeoff is important for the more game wrecking optimisations (combat related).

I'm going to start a seperate thread on this, if you do not mind.

I think that optimizers were always around in some form or another, but the Internet really made the play-style prominent.  Message boards allowed gamers to share tips and tactics for character-building and encounter planning, and online guides for making optimized Clerics/Fighters/etc. were free and could easily reach a large audience.

The CharOp forums on Wizards of the Coast in the 3rd Edition era gave such players a haven.  D&D's popularity, plus 3rd Edition's deliberate attempts to reward system mastery, made optimization pretty big.

Quote from: Xavier Onassiss;563037I also agree with the above poster who pointed out that point-buy systems make optimization easier. In a well-designed point-buy system, this should involve trade-offs to keep "optimized" characters' power levels in check.

The Traveling Salesman says this is really, really hard.

Quote from: soviet;563050The players option stuff in 2.5 was when it really became a big thing. Skills and Powers was so abusable it just wasn't funny. To a certain extent it's inevitable that more options = more variability in effectiveness between the options = more optimisation.

I never really saw much charop in D&D until Skills and Powers. Sure, there were people faking die rolls to get all 18s or whatever, but I call that "cheating" not using or abusing the rules to build the most powerful character you can. To be honest, I did not see it as a problem in 2e as it was pretty much confined to games that either used the Player's Option stuff (without a GM willing to say no) or were ran by/for munchkins.  It only became acceptable within the general D&D play culture with 3.x -- and it probably would not have become so widespread if WOTC had not supported it with those charop boards.

Quote from: Roger the GS;563032vorpal ... mace ...

does not compute

That sounds awesome, it knocks some poor bastard's right off!