Quote from: Justin Alexander;952779It was not.

Yeah, I shouldn't have used 'overturned'. I meant that the original award had been reduced... but I should have double-checked the facts.
Not that any of it ranks next to the extreme pain and suffering DK has endured over that unpublished C-Tech book.

It's a shame that the award was reduced.  Massive monetary penalties are really the only deterrent to corporate malfeasance.  If the reason they are hurting or even killing people is because it's cheaper than fixing things so that they don't hurt or kill people, you either need to...
1. Start sending humans to jail.
2. Let the juries make it not cheaper by slapping them with a penalty that actually hurts.

Quote from: CRKrueger;952856It's a shame that the award was reduced.  Massive monetary penalties are really the only deterrent to corporate malfeasance.  If the reason they are hurting or even killing people is because it's cheaper than fixing things so that they don't hurt or kill people, you either need to...
1. Start sending humans to jail.
2. Let the juries make it not cheaper by slapping them with a penalty that actually hurts.

Yep, and from the information posted it looks like that was exactly the calculation, it's cheaper to give the occasional person third degree burns and throw a few minutes (or less) of our profits at them than to lower the temperature on the coffee.  I mean they are "just" third degree burns, permanent nerve damage, tissue destruction and scarring, let alone lucky to survive if you get them over enough of your body.   If you've never had any injury experience or training just look them up, I suggest images.  

After all, a corporation is a person to who shouldn't have to follow any code of conduct besides maximizing executive compensation (I mean shareholder value).  What's a few casualties along the way, you have to break a few eggs to increase the coffee profit margin by a few percent.

Quote from: CRKrueger;952856It's a shame that the award was reduced.  Massive monetary penalties are really the only deterrent to corporate malfeasance.  If the reason they are hurting or even killing people is because it's cheaper than fixing things so that they don't hurt or kill people, you either need to...
1. Start sending humans to jail.
2. Let the juries make it not cheaper by slapping them with a penalty that actually hurts.

If you want to fine them - they should be fined through the criminal justice system.

Punitive damages are a moronic way to do it - and they skirt the core aspect of the criminal justice system "beyond a reasonable doubt".

Plus - they just become a lottery win for the plaintiff - because punitive damagers are inherently above and beyond any actual damages that the plaintiff received.  (I do know of one cancer insurance case where the punitive damages went to cancer research - but that was the exception to the rule.)

Quote from: Simlasa;952652Not that I know of... I was just raising it as one of the MANY examples of gaming products that were advertised as 'coming soon'... that didn't.

Oh.

I knew that.

I was... testing you. That's it, yeah. Testing

<.<

>.>

That's the ticket.

Heck, I actually bought another Cthulutech book (PDF) thanks to this thread. I'd damn near forgotten the game existed, partly because my local Brick-and-Mortar store sucks caramel covered donkey balls. Seriously, its like they never actually buy any new stock until the shit that hasn't sold in years... sells.  If you don't like Pathfinder you are SOL, my friend.  I had NO IDEA how many CT books had been released.

Of course I hate only having PDF books, and I don't think I'll ever play, much less run, this game again, so why did I buy it?  I'll tell you why: Because Darrin Kelly is that much of a whiny little bitch that I almost felt compelled (By the Power of Whiny Internet Bitches I compel Thee!!!!)  to toss a little money at Wildfire.  

God, I hope this is all a clever marketing ploy by Wildfire. I'd love to have been taken in by a mad supervillian game publisher!

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;952861If you want to fine them - they should be fined through the criminal justice system.

Punitive damages are a moronic way to do it - and they skirt the core aspect of the criminal justice system "beyond a reasonable doubt".

Plus - they just become a lottery win for the plaintiff - because punitive damagers are inherently above and beyond any actual damages that the plaintiff received.  (I do know of one cancer insurance case where the punitive damages went to cancer research - but that was the exception to the rule.)

Yes, agreed. If one were building a judicial system from the ground up, the punitive reward system to discourage companies from neglecting the safety of their customers (or society at large) should probably not be tied to civil cases. Changing that (in the U.S., where the case we are discussing took place) would require significant rebuilding of the legal system, and is unlikely to happen. Until that comes to pass, it would be nice if the large corporations might actually receive punishments that were sufficient to deter bad behavior. Unlikely to happen.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;952873Yes, agreed. If one were building a judicial system from the ground up, the punitive reward system to discourage companies from neglecting the safety of their customers (or society at large) should probably not be tied to civil cases. Changing that (in the U.S., where the case we are discussing took place) would require significant rebuilding of the legal system, and is unlikely to happen. Until that comes to pass, it would be nice if the large corporations might actually receive punishments that were sufficient to deter bad behavior. Unlikely to happen.

Your run into the whole "job creator" narrative when you try to place fines that will actually hurt a company in place. The management will plead that you need to think of all the poor workers at the bottom that will be downsized so they can both pay the fine and keep their annual bonuses.

We end result is that fines are calculated to have as little economic effect as possible on a company, meaning they have no real effect at all.

I think there simply needs to be more aggressive laws to target individuals in a company with personal charges in addition to fines. How are the people that made a decision to burn customers not guilty of calculated random battery? It was a predicted outcome.

Corporate liability protection is only meant to ensure your personal assets aren't seized to cover corporate debts. It's not meant to be some kind of diplomatic immunity that protect you from prosecution. The idea that we can know specific individuals planned to seriously burn people to make more money and not personally charge them is crazy.

I guess it's still not as crazy as how this case was somehow twisted by the media into a story about how McDonalds was victimized.

Having been awarded damages in a civil suit once, there is also the problem that often such damages are difficult if not impossible to actually collect. So, the big fat evil coporation may lose the suit, but still escape without taking a significant monetary hit. Or a hit to their insurance only.

I am going to guess that Wildfire, being a small RPG company, do not actually have the monetary assets to make it worth purusing them in court. Even a win would be unlikely to return enough to cover the cost of litigation.

Quote from: Spike;952871. . . o why did I buy it?  I'll tell you why: Because Darrin Kelly is that much of a whiny little bitch that I almost felt compelled (By the Power of Whiny Internet Bitches I compel Thee!!!!)  to toss a little money at Wildfire.

Chapeau, mate. I bow before your superior fuck-you-fu.

Quote from: Spike;952871Heck, I actually bought another Cthulutech book (PDF) thanks to this thread. I'd damn near forgotten the game existed, partly because my local Brick-and-Mortar store sucks caramel covered donkey balls. Seriously, its like they never actually buy any new stock until the shit that hasn't sold in years... sells.  If you don't like Pathfinder you are SOL, my friend.  I had NO IDEA how many CT books had been released.

Of course I hate only having PDF books, and I don't think I'll ever play, much less run, this game again, so why did I buy it?  I'll tell you why: Because Darrin Kelly is that much of a whiny little bitch that I almost felt compelled (By the Power of Whiny Internet Bitches I compel Thee!!!!)  to toss a little money at Wildfire.  

God, I hope this is all a clever marketing ploy by Wildfire. I'd love to have been taken in by a mad supervillian game publisher!

Christ, this thread has me consider buying a Chthulutech book and from what I've seen of the system and setting I'd rather play tiddlywinks.

Quote from: ThatChrisGuy;952888Christ, this thread has me consider buying a Chthulutech book and from what I've seen of the system and setting I'd rather play tiddlywinks.

The setting is interesting (though parts of it aren't totally internally consistent) - but the system was a hot mess.  Probably why they wanted to come out with 2e.

This thread is A+ quality entertainment. Keep it coming.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;952861If you want to fine them - they should be fined through the criminal justice system.

Punitive damages are a moronic way to do it - and they skirt the core aspect of the criminal justice system "beyond a reasonable doubt".

Plus - they just become a lottery win for the plaintiff - because punitive damagers are inherently above and beyond any actual damages that the plaintiff received.  (I do know of one cancer insurance case where the punitive damages went to cancer research - but that was the exception to the rule.)

Yeah...should being the operative term.  But since the people who make decisions and carry out actions at corporations hardly ever go to jail for anything they do...the only way to deter them is to force them to factor in the cost of a vindictive jury.  It becomes a lottery win for the plaintiff, yeah, who cares?  Have a corporation bankrupted and all the people involved go to jail for assault/murder/depraved indifference, fraud, and throw them into GenPop at Riker's or San Quentin and you might not have shit like this happen every week.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;952640Pulp Cthulhu. Actually, it had been so long I had forgotten about that one.

If they had gotten sued for it. Well it certainly would have put some serious fear into other RPG publishers. And possibly convinced them to get their acts together.

The problem is: That the misbehavior by these companies has been going on for so long that. They have come to believe they are entitled to misbehave.

That's where the entitlement in this whole issue comes from. From the companies.

That's assuming you have a shot at winning. What happens when, and notice I'm not saying if, you lose:)?

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;952656There are plenty of cases where real idiots have sued big companies for things that seemed a lot more ludicrous.

The case of someone dropping hot coffee they bought from McDonalds in their own lap? They sued McDonalds and won.

Yes. That person may look like an idiot to the rest of us. But the cold hard cash took away any reason for them to care about what anyone else would think.

So, the specifics of the case aside, is your goal to sue Wildfire and rely on a miscarriage of justice to win?
Because I am a lawyer by education, if not by trade, and I can tell you you have a snowball in hell's chance of winning in any law system between here and Saudi Arabia (I rate the USA as being in the middle, BTW:D).
 

Quote from: Spinachcat;952770Referring to any specific one?

I am still pissed REH whacked himself. We could have had more Conan!!

Me and you both, man:D!

Quote from: Spinachcat;952770Because we haven't sent him a bill for our time!

You haven't, maybe...
Also: yet.

Quote from: ThatChrisGuy;952888Christ, this thread has me consider buying a Chthulutech book and from what I've seen of the system and setting I'd rather play tiddlywinks.

Same here, but then I looked at Far Future's site and Design Mechanism's site, and the Spellbound Kingdoms' site, and decided I can spend the money better;)!