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Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion => Topic started by: Darrin Kelley on January 10, 2017, 06:43:50 PM

Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Darrin Kelley on January 10, 2017, 06:43:50 PM
I believe I have a right to stand up and cry foul at bad game company behavior. And even more so to recommend that people not buy said company's products because of it. I believe it is my right as a consumer to point that out.

The incident happened almost two years ago: Wildfire. The company that produced Cthulhutech had been promising a supplement to their game for a couple of years. This supplement detailed the last third, and most important of the main antagonists of the game. In essence, the game was incomplete without it. And a whole community was patiently waiting for it. So they could actually use the game to its full capacity.

Two years passed. The Wildfire announced that instead of finishing said supplement. That they would instead produce a 2nd Edition of the game instead. Leaving all of the people who had bought the first edition and all of its supplements with an incomplete product line.

This means that the people who spent hundreds of dollars on the first edition products would be left with an effectively unuseable game. While being expected to pony up hundreds of dollars all over again for a game the company never truly delivered on in the first place.

I found the whole thing unacceptable.

When I first posted about this in another rather infamous forum. I got responses attacking me for daring to to point this out. Accusing me of acting "entitled". Even some moderators joined in the trolling and eventually shut my thread down. Straight up villifying me for speaking out about it in the first place.

I sold off my Cthulhutech books afterward at a pretty steep loss. Because I was utterly disgusted with the company. I didn't even want the products in my home at that point. I was done.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Omega on January 10, 2017, 06:54:14 PM
I assume this 2nd edition will have totally new mechanics? Hence why I despise so much the damn "5 year plan" so many publishers worship like a religion.

No. You are not acting entitled for being pissed off at a publisher giving the run-around and then gouging the fanbase.

Gygax himself thought it was a stupid idea and stated that every time a company does it they lose upwards of 50% of their customer base. AND usually fracture the fanbase.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: The Butcher on January 10, 2017, 07:08:41 PM
I hear you, bro. One of the reasons I've been choosing very carefully which treadmills, if any, I jump into.

Nowadays, only a select few lines and publishers command my "buy anything" loyalty: Autarch (ACKS), Sine Nomine (SWN, Godbound &c.), The Design Mechanism (Mythras).
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Darrin Kelley on January 10, 2017, 07:24:25 PM
Quote from: Omega;939845
I assume this 2nd edition will have totally new mechanics? Hence why I despise so much the damn "5 year plan" so many publishers worship like a religion.

No. You are not acting entitled for being pissed off at a publisher giving the run-around and then gouging the fanbase.

Gygax himself thought it was a stupid idea and stated that every time a company does it they lose upwards of 50% of their customer base. AND usually fracture the fanbase.

Totally new mechanics. Effectively a complete replacement of the whole game system itself.

Pretty much: A double middle-finger to the people who actually bought the first edition in the first place.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Darrin Kelley on January 10, 2017, 07:31:07 PM
Quote from: The Butcher;939850
I hear you, bro. One of the reasons I've been choosing very carefully which treadmills, if any, I jump into.

Nowadays, only a select few lines and publishers command my "buy anything" loyalty: Autarch (ACKS), Sine Nomine (SWN, Godbound &c.), The Design Mechanism (Mythras).

Truthfully. I have stepped back from a lot of publishers because of their bad behavior. I used to buy a lot more RPG products per month than I actually do now.

Evil Hat Productions has my main attention these days. Fate I think is something special. And it is a type of RPG that made a true stab at innovation. Innovation that has sorely been needed with RPGs for a long time.

But I also think Fate took what were essentially baby steps toward true innovation.

I buy pretty much anything of Mutants & Masterminds. I just like to keep up with its products. They produce good products. And they do not string their customers along.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Abraxus on January 10, 2017, 07:57:33 PM
Will the new mechanics make the product better? I'm willing to overlook a new edition if it actually makes the rpg run better. If not I tend to ignore new editions for the sake of new ones every five years. So if Cthulhutech 2E is easier and faster to run they get my money if not it's another edition I will not waste my time on. That and "Pathfinder" editions. I have no interest in a product that does not have a minimum of 50%+ new material.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Simlasa on January 10, 2017, 08:00:36 PM
I've got a few companies I won't buy from because of their bad behavior. Others, like Chaosium, I used to be a bit of a fanboy about... but they've gone in a direction I'm not interested in... I've still got what I bought, it all still works fine... so it's not like they've cheated me.
Should I be bent out of shape that they never published Pulp Cthulhu until after putting out a new edition that makes changes I don't care for? (Not that I EVER wanted Pulp Cthulhu).
 
I'm not a Cthulhutech player so I don't know the details... but what setting is ever 'complete'? If it were some promised item you pre-ordered that would be one thing... but expecting them to publish something that never came to be... that seems like a fairly standard experience for most games I've played. I can see being a bit miffed about it... but beyond that... yeah, I do think it starts verging on 'entitled'.


Quote from: Omega;939845
Gygax himself thought it was a stupid idea and stated that every time a company does it they lose upwards of 50% of their customer base. AND usually fracture the fanbase.
Games Workshop seems to have tapped into some esoteric mojo that renders that all moot. It's like they lie in wait at delivery rooms to hand product flyers to unsuspecting newborns.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Old One Eye on January 10, 2017, 08:02:57 PM
You paid hundreds of dollars for a game you cannot play?  And you think it is someone else's fault rather than your own for spending hundreds of dollars on an unplayable game?
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Darrin Kelley on January 10, 2017, 08:08:23 PM
Quote from: sureshot;939859
Will the new mechanics make the product better? I'm willing to overlook a new edition if it actually makes the rpg run better. If not I tend to ignore new editions for the sake of new ones every five years. So if Cthulhutech 2E is easier and faster to run they get my money if not it's another edition I will not waste my time on. That and "Pathfinder" editions. I have no interest in a product that does not have a minimum of 50%+ new material.

The new mechanics are different for the sake of being different. "Better" doesn't enter into the picture. Because the substance of the 2nd edition hasn't even been seen. So "I don't know" is a fair response.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Darrin Kelley on January 10, 2017, 08:15:40 PM
Yeah, and here come the personal attacks once again. The one's claiming "the company can do no wrong". While treating those who speak up against said company's bad treatment of their customers as the villains.

It's a load of crap. Companies absolutely should be accountable to their customers. And bad treatment should absolutely cause said companies to lose their customers.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Darrin Kelley on January 10, 2017, 08:19:52 PM
Quote from: Old One Eye;939861
You paid hundreds of dollars for a game you cannot play?  And you think it is someone else's fault rather than your own for spending hundreds of dollars on an unplayable game?

In any other consumer field. If a product isn't useable. The customer has a right to not only ask for a refund. But post a negative opinion of said product.

How could anyone know that the product was unuseable until after they bought it? You think they could predict the future?
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Simlasa on January 10, 2017, 08:28:03 PM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;939866
In any other consumer field. If a product isn't useable. The customer has a right to not only ask for a refund. But post a negative opinion of said product.
But how is Cthulhutech unuseable? I never played it but I've seen posts by plenty of folks who did and liked it... are you saying it just could not be played at all until this final book came out? 'Cause that sounds like bullshit.

Of course companies can do wrong, game companies have swindled people... but putting out a whole line for an RPG and stalling on one supplement is not same thing at all. The 'new and improved edition' stuff is annoying and I try hard to not fall for it... but I disagree that it's anything near as much a betrayal as you're suggesting it is.

If the first edition books ever worked, if you could play a game with them... then they would still work and you'd still have what you paid for.
If the corebook was missing information, broken rules... needed fixes the company never provided... well, I've bought those games too, and had fun with them.

Is it so repugnant to you that you and some fans might write this missing book yourselves? Fill in the blanks? Maybe you'd come up with something far better than whatever the 'official' stuff is? It's all made up anyway, right?
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Darrin Kelley on January 10, 2017, 08:37:25 PM
Quote from: Simlasa;939868
But how is Cthulhutech unuseable? I never played it but I've seen posts by plenty of folks who did and liked it... are you saying it just could not be played at all until this final book came out?

The main antagonists of the book series were not given any real description in the rest of the line. That book was to be the guide on them. Where in the rest of the series, there were only scant references to them. But not in enough detail to make them actually useable.

It would be like having the Player's Handbook, and DMG for D&D. But having the Monster Manual never printed.. The last piece of the experience would be glaringly missing.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Charon's Little Helper on January 10, 2017, 08:47:28 PM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;939863
The new mechanics are different for the sake of being different. "Better" doesn't enter into the picture. Because the substance of the 2nd edition hasn't even been seen. So "I don't know" is a fair response.


It wouldn't be hard to improve the mechanics.  I bought a couple of Cthulhutech books because I liked the world and the game's vibe, but the mechanics are a steaming hot mess.  I played a couple of games, but then just read the fluff.  (It is interesting fluff.)  The world also falls apart if you think too hard, with the mechanics not reflecting the fluff at all.  (Ex: A dozen mechs could easily beat a huge one, but obviously the big ones would cost at least 100x as much based upon it's mass etc.)  The dice system is inherently swingy to the point of barely being playable.  etc.

I can't blame them if they want to try and improve it.  (They would be better off starting from scratch than trying to build on what they have.)
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Simlasa on January 10, 2017, 08:48:52 PM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;939870
It would be like having the Player's Handbook, and DMG for D&D. But having the Monster Manual never printed.. The last piece of the experience would be glaringly missing.
But my limited understanding of Cthulhutech is that there are plenty of monsters statted up for it. So really, it's more like having the Players Handbook, a DMG, and a Monster Manual... but no stats for, say, Mindflayers... at which point, anyone really wanting Mindflayers in their game would write some up themself. No?

Either way, to my eyes it's still a useable product... but like any RPG I know of it has bits of the setting that are not thoroughly fleshed out.
I'd also note that one of the complaints I've seen about Call of Cthulhu is that it DOES stat out the big bads... describes them in too much detail, as if you're meant to track them down and kill them in their cosmic beds, ala D&D Gods and Demigods. Some folks prefer that stuff being left vague and mysterious.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Darrin Kelley on January 10, 2017, 08:59:37 PM
I was pointing out one thing. That the book promised and advertised to the community for two years (but never delivered) gave the actual details on the setting's central antagonists.

Those being: The Disciples Of Deaths Shadow, The Esoteric Order Of Dagon, and The Disciples Of The Rapine Storm. All three of which are the big movers and shakers of the setting. But all three of which didn't get anything close to adiquate coverage in the rest of the line.

There were descriptions of the generic cultists. A few monsters scattered here and there. But the real meat of the descriptions of those three groups wouldn't be released until that final book, Dead Gods, was released.

You cannot honestly call a game useable when its setting's antagonists of main focus have nearly no details of any substance given on them. The three groups are not replaceable. They are not ignoreable. They are the main villainous stars of the show for the Cthulhutech experience.

As a customer who dedicatedly bought all of their books: I feel ripped off.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Coffee Zombie on January 10, 2017, 09:31:18 PM
Game companies loose steam sometimes, and the current product offerings end up being bought by a smaller and smaller fan base. When you're deciding if your next book will make enough money to merit publishing it, or if it's time to go for broke and try and revitalize the line, it can be a difficult choice. I don't see everyone out there giving a free pass to Chaosium for yanking RQ back and deciding to Glorantha it up again, so you aren't bound to give this company a free pass either.

And if they do decide to go for broke, and say "we're focusing on the new edition" and not finishing the old work, it's on them. But they don't owe you a cent. They're books, not promises.

But whining about it on a forum? What's that going to solve. If people bring up the merits of the game, you could relate your story as a cautionary tale, and potential buyers might think twice (and you get sweet revenge). Otherwise? What's the point. Move on. Or, as others have suggested, just finish it yourself if you actually liked the game.

Sorry, don't honestly know or care about CTech enough to really validate your complaints.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Simlasa on January 11, 2017, 12:16:13 AM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;939878
As a customer who dedicatedly bought all of their books: I feel ripped off.
Is RPGNet's dating system messed up? Because... it appears you've been complaining about this slight online since at least July of 2015... when you started a thread about it on RPGNet ('I'm Livid')... where you got some sympathy and even a reply from the company, saying that when they publish the info for the new edition they'll try to keep it separate from the mechanics so it will be of use to all users... Hmmm...
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Omega on January 11, 2017, 12:22:18 AM
Quote from: Simlasa;939860
Games Workshop seems to have tapped into some esoteric mojo that renders that all moot. It's like they lie in wait at delivery rooms to hand product flyers to unsuspecting newborns.


Cult mentality + touting your game as the bestest mostest and getting your cult to believe that even when it was never true.

I've lost track of the ones that have flat out stated that "its a privilidge to pay 20$ for a mini" A mini that would anywhere else cost 5. Or less. And it being made for pennies each.

And GWs tactics failed. Their sales have plummeted to near critical levels before their fake change of heart and management.

As for Chaosium. I used to like the company. But in recent years theyve gotten really greedy and so I backed off totally. We'll see where this goes.

Its appalling really how many gaming publishers board or RPG are corrupt or have and still have wretched practices or attitudes.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Omega on January 11, 2017, 12:31:57 AM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;939870
The main antagonists of the book series were not given any real description in the rest of the line. That book was to be the guide on them. Where in the rest of the series, there were only scant references to them. But not in enough detail to make them actually useable.

It would be like having the Player's Handbook, and DMG for D&D. But having the Monster Manual never printed.. The last piece of the experience would be glaringly missing.

Not quite that extreme.

It would be like having D&D and the MM is missing some of the top end threat monsters like dragons, liches and mind flayers for example. Or Call of Cthulhu and the Deep Ones are never completed or statted.

You have a playable game. But its got gaps. As long as the gaps arent for starter material its usually not a problem. Though may be justifiably annoying. But when the gaps are not so easily worked around... THEN we have a problem.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Omega on January 11, 2017, 12:41:50 AM
Quote from: Coffee Zombie;939883
And if they do decide to go for broke, and say "we're focusing on the new edition" and not finishing the old work, it's on them. But they don't owe you a cent. They're books, not promises.

In this case the books were touted as upcomming. Which sadly isnt nothing new. Palladium and a few other publishers have done that in the past, present, and foreseeable future.

Sometimes the reason why a book that was advertised as coming soon never does is because in the intervening time span something happened. Often that something is the writer left.

I have a manuscript for a Palladium book that I was the art director for and its never going to see light because Kevin treated the designer like dirt and he left and just handed me the manuscript and quit game design.

I have the finished art for another game that I was design consultant on that I hope never sees publication because the publisher refused to pay me. And a year later the artist quit and hasnt been seen since. Joy.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Tristram Evans on January 11, 2017, 12:53:23 AM
Quote from: Simlasa;939895
Is RPGNet's dating system messed up? Because... it appears you've been complaining about this slight online since at least July of 2015... when you started a thread about it on RPGNet ('I'm Livid')... where you got some sympathy and even a reply from the company, saying that when they publish the info for the new edition they'll try to keep it separate from the mechanics so it will be of use to all users... Hmmm...


Yeah, I googled up that same thread. Sure, the mod was a bit of a dick in closing it, but overall everyone (including the game's authors) seemed to be very sympathetic. But whatever, its his personal vendetta, lots of those around this place. I'd take that over the racist crap anyday.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: TrippyHippy on January 11, 2017, 02:08:48 AM
I think that most of the time, when RPG companies treat their customers badly it's not out of malice, just pure David Brent style incompetence. This is particularly true of Kickstarter campaigns.

You do have the power, as a consumer, to say no though. Always.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Shawn Driscoll on January 11, 2017, 02:39:49 AM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;939870
It would be like having the Player's Handbook, and DMG for D&D. But having the Monster Manual never printed.. The last piece of the experience would be glaringly missing.


Not an issue for a GM that's not a crap GM.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: crkrueger on January 11, 2017, 04:08:57 AM
I hear ya.  3 versions of WFRP and still no Tilea/Estalia.  WFRP, however, was completely playable with one book.

Cthulhutech is a complete game mechanically, it's the Metaplot they never finished.

Also, don't think filling an "RPG" with storytelling mechanics is a roleplaying "innovation".

Canceling the line one book shy of giving you the final piece of the setting puzzle, just so they can press Reboot and start it all over again is pretty shitty though.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Logosi on January 11, 2017, 06:32:59 AM
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;939913
Not an issue for a GM that's not a crap GM.

Yeah only a real fucktard would want a Monster Manual. I hope nobody in this forum owns one. What a pathetic loser you'd have to be.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Nexus on January 11, 2017, 06:58:50 AM
Quote from: TrippyHippy;939908
I think that most of the time, when RPG companies treat their customers badly it's not out of malice, just pure David Brent style incompetence. This is particularly true of Kickstarter campaigns.

You do have the power, as a consumer, to say no though. Always.


Yeah, voting with your wallet is always an option and often the best one.

But then again, I don't have allot of skin in this game since I'm using C-tech for the fluff only and another system for the mechanics. Plus from the big dropped about the 2ed fluff and the issues and audience its apparently going to cater too I don't think I'll like it enough to sink any cash into it.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: RunningLaser on January 11, 2017, 08:55:34 AM
Quote from: Coffee Zombie;939883
Game companies loose steam sometimes, and the current product offerings end up being bought by a smaller and smaller fan base. When you're deciding if your next book will make enough money to merit publishing it, or if it's time to go for broke and try and revitalize the line, it can be a difficult choice.


This is what I was thinking as well.  Looking at wikipedia, the first edition came out in 2007, so ten years ago or so.  Maybe in the ten years that passed, the designers got lots of feedback on how to improve the system's warts, clean things up and what not.  

The game line may not be complete, but from what I'm reading it's playable.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Crüesader on January 11, 2017, 09:31:35 AM
Quote from: Simlasa;939860
Games Workshop seems to have tapped into some esoteric mojo that renders that all moot. It's like they lie in wait at delivery rooms to hand product flyers to unsuspecting newborns.


And supposedly, 8th Edition is right around the corner.  Of course, everyone is howling that it's going to 'ruin' everything like Age of Sigmar (which honestly isn't bad to play).  However, as I understand the most 'drastic' change will be that 8th edition is going to take a note from Sigmar and change the way Monstrous Creatures work on the battlefield (the more damage they take, the less effective they are).  Hence why shitloads of Tau players are doing the [AUTISTIC SCREECHING].  Which, of course, is the norm for Tau players (what do you expect when a disproportionate number of these kids choose their army because some other idiot on the internet told them 'Tau are the best'?)

Of course, GW is getting back into the 'side game' market.  Deathwatch: Overkill is a hell of a way to start a Genestealer Cult army AND bolster a Deathwatch army.  Gorechosen is a blast (and I love throwing down my Slaughterpriest from the White Dwarf magazine).   Gangs of Comorragh looks like it is going to be stupid-fun, too.  And Kill-Team is insanely popular everywhere I go, and I'll be in a narrative Kill-Team campaign (and the host is claiming there will be some degree of roleplaying in it).

As far as 'Cthulutech' is concerned, I think this is the game that caught my eye until I saw the price tag.  I didn't know enough people who played it, so I took a pass on it.  I feel genuinely bad for the OP, because I've got a shitload of Exalted 2e books that will probably be obsolete (Alchemicals > All).  But, with Second Edition- I'm hoping there may be more interest and I might pick it up.

OP, my honest advice for you?  Don't bet on a promise from someone who wants your money.  Don't invest in a product until you see it's complete.  Right now, shitloads of people I know who put cash into the kickstarter for 'City of Titans' (the promised 'spiritual successor' to City of Heroes) are wondering why there isn't anything resembling an alpha product (it's primarily a shitload of 'fluff' and promises) after 4 fucking years.  But hey- they put cash (Over $600,000.00) down for a bunch of people with absolutely zero developer experience to make one of the most difficult types of games to develop, in a market where this type of game is losing appeal (also some fun suspicions about these guys taking the money and running, and claiming they spent it all on 'developer tools').
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Abraxus on January 11, 2017, 10:50:39 AM
It's funny how no matter the hobby. Posters will post a rant thread or something similarly inflammatory. Yet don't seem to want to hear anything that goes against their rant or thread subject. At this point one has to be not only naive . Go out of their way to be naive about new editions espcially in rpgs. For better or worse it seems to be standard in too many industries. As well it's interesting when it's a rpg they want a new edition for they have no problems with a new edition. When it's a rpg they don't want a new edition for. Then all hell breaks loss.

As for the mechanics of Cthulhutech new edition. I'm going to wait and see if I buy it. If I listened to every person in the hobby telling me not to buy a new rpg because they don't like the changes. I would still be playing 1E D&D.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: AsenRG on January 11, 2017, 11:36:40 AM
Wait, two years passed and you think any Referee worth his or her salt hasn't improvised the stats for those groups already:D? Seriously, you know what said "villains" are doing, but you can't decide who and what they are?
You've just encountered "the metaplot problem" (and I suspect the company has encountered the opposite side of it). Namely, it's the fact that the number of people who have any use for vital setting information not contained in the corebook is always reduced by the square of the time passed since the publication of the corebook;).
Alas, that means that the company has less reasons to publish a book containing solely said information, as it gets less and less profitable to do so (many people have their version already, and they're not interested in what you would offer because they've been using their version already), but the people who were still waiting for it are also going to be angrier if they were waiting for a long time.

Of course, you can always vote your wallet, which it seems you did, it's just that the outrage is getting a bit much for me to understand.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Simlasa on January 11, 2017, 12:28:24 PM
Quote from: Crüesader;939955
Right now, shitloads of people I know who put cash into the kickstarter for 'City of Titans' (the promised 'spiritual successor' to City of Heroes) are wondering why there isn't anything resembling an alpha product (it's primarily a shitload of 'fluff' and promises) after 4 fucking years.
If City of Heroes were to come back in a form that's at all recognizable I'd jump right in line to hand them my money. But not before it actually exists.

People still equating Kickstarter with 'pre-order' make me laugh.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Simlasa on January 11, 2017, 12:30:14 PM
Quote from: Nexus;939927
Plus from the big dropped about the 2ed fluff and the issues and audience its apparently going to cater too I don't think I'll like it enough to sink any cash into it.
Could you elaborate on that a bit? Which faction of gamers is it trying to attract?
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: trechriron on January 11, 2017, 01:17:02 PM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;939843
...I was done.

Darrin. It's time for some tough love. The above clipped statement is IN FACT the most important part of your post. You may not realize it yet, so let me frame your situation as succinctly and directly as I can.

First, the folks who created Cthulutech are better than you. In pretty much every measurable way. Most importantly they created something. Something you loved. Something you loved so deeply you became emotionally attached to it. That is unto like a power of the gods. They made you love Darrin. That alone proves their superiority.

Second, as smart creative and successful people do, they decided to change things up. Because that's what free thinkers do. So they made a change. They likely had no idea you were in love with them. Being superior to you in every way, they already had all the love they needed from their circle. This love circle proves once again their superiority.

Finally, after trying to form a mob, boycott the company, sell all your products at a loss, and entreat multiple fora you have (as is factually evident here) lost. You lost. You failed to accomplish anything except lose money and shit yourself. In this "war" the Cthulutech people have proven, without any shadow of a doubt, how superior they are to you.

You are clearly done. Completely done. You have failed and lost. It's over.

What to do now? Lament that there are people in the world that are better than you? Feel sorry for yourself?

How about instead you find a game you actually like and play it. Then come here and talk about what you like about that game.

In this, you will have all the power. You will have complete control of your destiny. No longer will you be shackled by the superior creatives of Cthulutech and you can command the FULL POWER of your fully operational FREE WILL.

Darrin - we're pulling for you man. We're hoping you learned something from your experience.

Now pull yourself up. Brush off the hurt-dirt. Un-pucker your butthole and get on with it.

You deserve happiness which can only be found by you.

Good luck bro.

Sincerely,
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: crkrueger on January 11, 2017, 01:18:28 PM
Hmm saw this on Reddit:

Quote
V2.0 will continue the meta plot and the events that have already occurred will be outlined in the core book. The events that are going to take place in Dead Gods will be the first of the new metaplot events to be revealed following V2.0s release. V2.0 will not go into the same detail on past events as the previous metaplot books do but will provide a general summary of what has happened so far. If people want to read the details they will need to pickup the previously published metaplot books.

The reason we went this route is related to combination of a lot of internal discussions and a lot of conversations with players at various shows. It was decided that we did not want to basically reprint a bunch of material already done and the vast majority of players did not want to feel they needed to purchase new editions of books they already have so they can find little changes we may have made. We also did not want to rewrite material we've already written.
We are splitting the timelines of Shadow War and the Aeon War apart going forward but the overall meta plot, which is following a long-establish internal document, is not going to change overall.


Doesn't particularly sound like a "Reboot to Rebuy Them All" kinda deal.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: The Butcher on January 11, 2017, 01:41:17 PM
Quote from: trechriron;939984
Darrin. It's time for some tough love.


We're not even halfway across January yet and we already have a Post of the Year nominee. Take a bow, sir.

And OP? If you like Cthulhutech so much, and don't want to buy the new edition, why did you sell your old books? :confused:
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Darrin Kelley on January 11, 2017, 03:02:56 PM
My reason for posting here was simple. It was unfinished business to me.

The thread on the unspeakable place was rather brutally closed before I was able to finish expressing my thoughts on the subject.

It's been a couple of years. And I have stewed on this particular subject ever since. It kept bugging me that I never got to finish my thoughts on the matter.

The results of going through this episode are pretty clear. They altered my buying habits in a pretty drastic manner. As to the type of RPGs I plop my money down for.

The whole Metaplot thing has given me a sour taste in my mouth since my days following White Wolf's games. And Cthulhutech was just the final breaking point. The point where I swore off any game containing a dominant metaplot.

As a GM, I want a game to provide me the tools I need to do my own thing. That's why I have shifted my buying habits more toward more multigenre capable games like FATE. Ones that focus on providing all of tools up front. And do not waste valuable time and space on metaplot. Instead of just giving me a complete set of tools from the outset.

The change was made in me. And honestly. I think I'm better off now without Cthulhutech. And I'm happier without it.

Quote
And OP? If you like Cthulhutech so much, and don't want to buy the new edition, why did you sell your old books?

Sometimes one just needs a clean break and a fresh start. Even in my distressed condition at the time, I recognized that I needed distance from the subject of my frustration. And the missing pieces were so glaring to me that they really prevented my ability to really continue enjoying it.

I'll be clear. I won't buy the new edition: Because I don't trust the company to actually deliver the completed product. Why on earth would I continue to give money to a company that proved that they couldn't and wouldn't finish the job? Fool me once: Shame on you. Fool me twice: Shame on me.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 11, 2017, 03:06:20 PM
Quote from: sureshot;939965
It's funny how no matter the hobby. Posters will post a rant thread or something similarly inflammatory. Yet don't seem to want to hear anything that goes against their rant or thread subject. At this point one has to be not only naive . Go out of their way to be naive about new editions espcially in rpgs. For better or worse it seems to be standard in too many industries. As well it's interesting when it's a rpg they want a new edition for they have no problems with a new edition. When it's a rpg they don't want a new edition for. Then all hell breaks loss.

As for the mechanics of Cthulhutech new edition. I'm going to wait and see if I buy it. If I listened to every person in the hobby telling me not to buy a new rpg because they don't like the changes. I would still be playing 1E D&D.

An interesting set of points.  But your post is really hard to read.  Because you have it chopped up into tiny nongrammatical bits.  Which makes you sound like Bill Shatner.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 11, 2017, 03:11:36 PM
Quote from: trechriron;939984
Darrin. It's time for some tough love. The above clipped statement is IN FACT the most important part of your post. You may not realize it yet, so let me frame your situation as succinctly and directly as I can.

First, the folks who created Cthulutech are better than you. In pretty much every measurable way. Most importantly they created something. Something you loved. Something you loved so deeply you became emotionally attached to it. That is unto like a power of the gods. They made you love Darrin. That alone proves their superiority.

Second, as smart creative and successful people do, they decided to change things up. Because that's what free thinkers do. So they made a change. They likely had no idea you were in love with them. Being superior to you in every way, they already had all the love they needed from their circle. This love circle proves once again their superiority.

Finally, after trying to form a mob, boycott the company, sell all your products at a loss, and entreat multiple fora you have (as is factually evident here) lost. You lost. You failed to accomplish anything except lose money and shit yourself. In this "war" the Cthulutech people have proven, without any shadow of a doubt, how superior they are to you.

You are clearly done. Completely done. You have failed and lost. It's over.

What to do now? Lament that there are people in the world that are better than you? Feel sorry for yourself?

How about instead you find a game you actually like and play it. Then come here and talk about what you like about that game.

In this, you will have all the power. You will have complete control of your destiny. No longer will you be shackled by the superior creatives of Cthulutech and you can command the FULL POWER of your fully operational FREE WILL.

Darrin - we're pulling for you man. We're hoping you learned something from your experience.

Now pull yourself up. Brush off the hurt-dirt. Un-pucker your butthole and get on with it.

You deserve happiness which can only be found by you.

Good luck bro.

Sincerely,



Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 11, 2017, 03:16:01 PM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;939998
My reason for posting here was simple. It was unfinished business to me.

The thread on the unspeakable place was rather brutally closed before I was able to finish expressing my thoughts on the subject.

It's been a couple of years. And I have stewed on this particular subject ever since. It kept bugging me that I never got to finish my thoughts on the matter.


Dude.  Get help.  Seriously.  It's a stupid fucking game.  If it has been "bugging" you for two years, that's neither healthy nor normal.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: crkrueger on January 11, 2017, 03:26:48 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;940004
Dude.  Get help.  Seriously.  It's a stupid fucking game.  If it has been "bugging" you for two years, that's neither healthy nor normal.

Two years, that's nothing.  It's going on 9 years since WFRP3 and I still pray to Khaine for vengeance. :D

2008, man was that a useless shitfuck of a year for RPGs.  There were some good ones, but the fail was EPIC.

Although you want to talk about treating customers badly, 2008 was the year for that too.  4e, of course, but also Dark Heresy sells out it's print run the first day...and is canceled by GW.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Omega on January 11, 2017, 03:41:02 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;939986
Doesn't particularly sound like a "Reboot to Rebuy Them All" kinda deal.


Does sound like a good sign. So far. Assuming the new material is backwards compatible.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Darrin Kelley on January 11, 2017, 03:49:35 PM
I won't even try to defend GW. The cries of frustration because of them definitely were not lost on me.

But this does bring up an important issue related to the field of gaming. The belief by an overwhelming amount of companies providing product for that audience that: Consumer protection laws do not apply to them or the products they produce.

That's wrong. I don't care if it is "just a hobby community" speaking out. Consumer protection laws should apply to all businesses and products. Committing fraud against consumers definitely is a crime.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: jeff37923 on January 11, 2017, 04:06:52 PM
Quote from: TrippyHippy;939908
I think that most of the time, when RPG companies treat their customers badly it's not out of malice, just pure David Brent style incompetence. This is particularly true of Kickstarter campaigns.

You do have the power, as a consumer, to say no though. Always.


Unless the game is Mongoose Traveller 2e, then TrippyHippy will just claim that you are grudge posting when you have a legitimate complaint.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 11, 2017, 04:16:08 PM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;940013
I won't even try to defend GW. The cries of frustration because of them definitely were not lost on me.

But this does bring up an important issue related to the field of gaming. The belief by an overwhelming amount of companies providing product for that audience that: Consumer protection laws do not apply to them or the products they produce.

That's wrong. I don't care if it is "just a hobby community" speaking out. Consumer protection laws should apply to all businesses and products. Committing fraud against consumers definitely is a crime.

If they mailed copies of their merchandise, it's postal fraud.  Inform the USPS.  Or the state Attorney General.  You aren't going to get them prosecuted for fraud on a shitass little internet forum.  Don't whine, act.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Omega on January 11, 2017, 04:41:55 PM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;940013
I won't even try to defend GW. The cries of frustration because of them definitely were not lost on me.

But this does bring up an important issue related to the field of gaming. The belief by an overwhelming amount of companies providing product for that audience that: Consumer protection laws do not apply to them or the products they produce.

That's wrong. I don't care if it is "just a hobby community" speaking out. Consumer protection laws should apply to all businesses and products. Committing fraud against consumers definitely is a crime.

Youd have to really prove that they committed fraud. The RPG and even board gaming industry have hundreds of examples of games that were touted and then never saw light.

Did they ever say they were definitly 100% going to make those books? Or was it just a nebulous working through the factions thing. Because if it is the second then sorry, those things have a known tendency to never get quite completed before something happens.

Your overfocus on them not printing the last few books seems a little... odd. Understandable because it IS annoying as all hell. But still a little off kilter. This is not like FFG who deliberately leave out game mechanics and elements to gouge the customer just that little more. These are faction books that while yes they have the movers and shakers finally. Are not integral to playing the game.

And as it stands those last few books may some day still see light.

Its kind of like BX D&D where X tells you more rules are in the works for Companion. But that never happened and instead they launched BECMI which is not quite backwards compatible due to some rules changes. BUT. The backgrounds and histories in the Gazetteers are viable for BX and some of the mechanics introduced in those can be retrofitted into BX as well.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: TrippyHippy on January 11, 2017, 05:14:06 PM
Quote from: jeff37923;940017
Unless the game is Mongoose Traveller 2e, then TrippyHippy will just claim that you are grudge posting when you have a legitimate complaint.

Unless it's jeff37923 speaking, most people are mature enough not to hold grudges.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: jhkim on January 11, 2017, 06:09:08 PM
I don't know the specifics of Cthulhutech and/or Games Workshop, so this is generalized.

I personally feel that often companies cater too much to existing hard-core customers (i.e. the type who say "I must have book 11") as opposed to catering to people who haven't played yet or casual players. To the hard-core player of the first edition, a new edition can seem like a betrayal - trying to supposedly force them to buy redundant material. However, to a new player, the new edition could make everything better.

So suppose a hypothetical company starts game line XYZ, and had plans to make a dozen books for it. They announce their plans, but then the line isn't as successful as they hoped. At that point, I think it's reasonable for them to change their plans and not release all 12 books, but instead rework the game or release a different game. As long as they didn't advertise as "we guarantee that we will release 12 books", then this isn't fraud or poor ethics - it's just to be expected.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Simlasa on January 11, 2017, 06:09:34 PM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;940013
That's wrong. I don't care if it is "just a hobby community" speaking out. Consumer protection laws should apply to all businesses and products. Committing fraud against consumers definitely is a crime.
Dude, you're just fucking bonkers! It's not 'fraud'.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Cave Bear on January 11, 2017, 06:49:38 PM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;939843
I believe I have a right to stand up and cry foul at bad game company behavior. And even more so to recommend that people not buy said company's products because of it. I believe it is my right as a consumer to point that out.

The incident happened almost two years ago: Wildfire. The company that produced Cthulhutech had been promising a supplement to their game for a couple of years. This supplement detailed the last third, and most important of the main antagonists of the game. In essence, the game was incomplete without it. And a whole community was patiently waiting for it. So they could actually use the game to its full capacity.

Two years passed. The Wildfire announced that instead of finishing said supplement. That they would instead produce a 2nd Edition of the game instead. Leaving all of the people who had bought the first edition and all of its supplements with an incomplete product line.

This means that the people who spent hundreds of dollars on the first edition products would be left with an effectively unuseable game. While being expected to pony up hundreds of dollars all over again for a game the company never truly delivered on in the first place.

I found the whole thing unacceptable.

When I first posted about this in another rather infamous forum. I got responses attacking me for daring to to point this out. Accusing me of acting "entitled". Even some moderators joined in the trolling and eventually shut my thread down. Straight up villifying me for speaking out about it in the first place.

I sold off my Cthulhutech books afterward at a pretty steep loss. Because I was utterly disgusted with the company. I didn't even want the products in my home at that point. I was done.


Did you already pay for the supplement? Via Kickstarter?
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Black Vulmea on January 11, 2017, 07:06:23 PM
Quote from: trechriron;939984
Darrin. It's time for some tough love. The above clipped statement is IN FACT the most important part of your post. You may not realize it yet, so let me frame your situation as succinctly and directly as I can.

First, the folks who created Cthulutech are better than you. In pretty much every measurable way. Most importantly they created something. Something you loved. Something you loved so deeply you became emotionally attached to it. That is unto like a power of the gods. They made you love Darrin. That alone proves their superiority.

Second, as smart creative and successful people do, they decided to change things up. Because that's what free thinkers do. So they made a change. They likely had no idea you were in love with them. Being superior to you in every way, they already had all the love they needed from their circle. This love circle proves once again their superiority.

Finally, after trying to form a mob, boycott the company, sell all your products at a loss, and entreat multiple fora you have (as is factually evident here) lost. You lost. You failed to accomplish anything except lose money and shit yourself. In this "war" the Cthulutech people have proven, without any shadow of a doubt, how superior they are to you.

You are clearly done. Completely done. You have failed and lost. It's over.

What to do now? Lament that there are people in the world that are better than you? Feel sorry for yourself?

How about instead you find a game you actually like and play it. Then come here and talk about what you like about that game.

In this, you will have all the power. You will have complete control of your destiny. No longer will you be shackled by the superior creatives of Cthulutech and you can command the FULL POWER of your fully operational FREE WILL.

Darrin - we're pulling for you man. We're hoping you learned something from your experience.

Now pull yourself up. Brush off the hurt-dirt. Un-pucker your butthole and get on with it.

You deserve happiness which can only be found by you.

Good luck bro.

(https://68.media.tumblr.com/1fdea851fe9e8467bffe2f533a64b654/tumblr_ne2xgj19sh1rnhnqfo1_500.gif)

Chapeau, mate.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 11, 2017, 07:12:44 PM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;940013
I won't even try to defend GW. The cries of frustration because of them definitely were not lost on me.

But this does bring up an important issue related to the field of gaming. The belief by an overwhelming amount of companies providing product for that audience that: Consumer protection laws do not apply to them or the products they produce.

That's wrong. I don't care if it is "just a hobby community" speaking out. Consumer protection laws should apply to all businesses and products. Committing fraud against consumers definitely is a crime.

Did they take any money for products not delivered?

If not, they didn't commit fraud, they just made your little pee-pee sad.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Cave Bear on January 11, 2017, 07:37:01 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;940059


If not, they didn't commit fraud, they just made your little pee-pee sad.


Why do you have to drag pee-pees into this, Gronan?
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 11, 2017, 07:49:20 PM
I'm not dragging his pee-pee anywhere.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Old One Eye on January 11, 2017, 09:55:46 PM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;940013
I won't even try to defend GW. The cries of frustration because of them definitely were not lost on me.

But this does bring up an important issue related to the field of gaming. The belief by an overwhelming amount of companies providing product for that audience that: Consumer protection laws do not apply to them or the products they produce.

That's wrong. I don't care if it is "just a hobby community" speaking out. Consumer protection laws should apply to all businesses and products. Committing fraud against consumers definitely is a crime.


Assuming you are in the USA, you should call the CFPB to report the fraud.  1-855-411-2372.  They will be happy to let you know on the legality of a company changing its product line.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Charon's Little Helper on January 11, 2017, 10:08:57 PM
Quote from: Old One Eye;940083
Assuming you are in the USA, you should call the CFPB to report the fraud.  1-855-411-2372.  They will be happy to let you know on the legality of a company changing its product line.

Lol.  The OP might want to look up something called 'puffery'.  Businesses are allowed to say pretty much anything they want as long as it isn't overly specific.  (Good example: Papa Johns's "better ingredients - better pizza" means absolutely nothing.  Their ingredients are the same as every other pizza place's.)

So - if it bugs you just take your money and go home.  Ranting on a random internet board will accomplish nothing.  (Except provide mild amusement to people like me who find your hissy fit kinda funny.)
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Baulderstone on January 11, 2017, 10:09:54 PM
Quote from: Omega;940025
Its kind of like BX D&D where X tells you more rules are in the works for Companion. But that never happened and instead they launched BECMI which is not quite backwards compatible due to some rules changes. BUT. The backgrounds and histories in the Gazetteers are viable for BX and some of the mechanics introduced in those can be retrofitted into BX as well.


I have both sets for B/X, and I really don't recall anything said about a forthcoming Companion set. I seem to recall them being a complete, self-contained game. Am I forgetting something?

That aside, I'm not ready to get too pissed off at this company. They sold the OP a corebook. You apparently found it is a solid enough game that he went out and bought a bunch of supplements for. Play the game in that corebook that you like so much.

Are there gamelines that never covered everything I wanted? Sure! Plenty of them. I really would have liked to see an Annunaki book for Fading Suns. Never happened. I still had a lot of fun with that game. I'm not seething with rage at HDI about it. I don't get to have an Annunaki book, and they don't get to have the money I would have spent on it. We are even.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Tristram Evans on January 11, 2017, 10:52:54 PM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;940013
I won't even try to defend GW. The cries of frustration because of them definitely were not lost on me.

But this does bring up an important issue related to the field of gaming. The belief by an overwhelming amount of companies providing product for that audience that: Consumer protection laws do not apply to them or the products they produce.

That's wrong. I don't care if it is "just a hobby community" speaking out. Consumer protection laws should apply to all businesses and products. Committing fraud against consumers definitely is a crime.


You've just taken this to a new level of silly.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Tristram Evans on January 11, 2017, 10:54:08 PM
Quote from: jhkim;940049
I don't know the specifics of Cthulhutech and/or Games Workshop, so this is generalized.

I personally feel that often companies cater too much to existing hard-core customers (i.e. the type who say "I must have book 11") as opposed to catering to people who haven't played yet or casual players. To the hard-core player of the first edition, a new edition can seem like a betrayal - trying to supposedly force them to buy redundant material. However, to a new player, the new edition could make everything better.

Wow, yeah,you really don't know GW.

Their approach to their customer base is slash and burn on a five year cycle to make room for the new blood.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Omega on January 12, 2017, 12:20:40 AM
Quote from: Baulderstone;940088
I have both sets for B/X, and I really don't recall anything said about a forthcoming Companion set. I seem to recall them being a complete, self-contained game. Am I forgetting something?

Page X8. Mentions the Companion supplement at the end of the "Levels Beyond Those Listed" section. And correct. BX is perfectly playable as is. One of its strengths really.

The only time I'd get irked is if the publishers are withholding mechanics that really do make the game incomplete without those upcoming books.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: David Johansen on January 12, 2017, 12:42:37 AM
If you don't like their stuff, don't buy it.  GW fans finally voted with their dollars for a couple years and GW actually wised up.  Oh it won't last and White Dwarf is still devoid of actually useful content but they actually responded after a couple years of losses.  Now, I say hold them down until they bring back the Squats but I'm just a vicious bastard.

The best thing about a B/X Companion would have been a third Erol Otis painting showing another tier of detail.  Though really, that's something I don't think any retro clone has tackled.  What would it look like? Erol Otis and Jeff Dee art sure as shootin' but mechanically I doubt it would look like the BXCMI companion.  I'll start a thread for it.

As for Gronan's pee pee, it does seem to get stuck in things doesn't it?
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 12, 2017, 12:43:44 AM
Quote from: Tristram Evans;940092
You've just taken this to a new level of silly.

Agreed.  If no money has changed hands there is no fraud, and the courts really don't care that some guy's dinkie is bruised because he didn't get a book he wanted.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: AsenRG on January 12, 2017, 05:41:57 AM
Quote from: Baulderstone;940088
I have both sets for B/X, and I really don't recall anything said about a forthcoming Companion set. I seem to recall them being a complete, self-contained game. Am I forgetting something?

That aside, I'm not ready to get too pissed off at this company. They sold the OP a corebook. You apparently found it is a solid enough game that he went out and bought a bunch of supplements for. Play the game in that corebook that you like so much.

Are there gamelines that never covered everything I wanted? Sure! Plenty of them. I really would have liked to see an Annunaki book for Fading Suns. Never happened. I still had a lot of fun with that game. I'm not seething with rage at HDI about it. I don't get to have an Annunaki book, and they don't get to have the money I would have spent on it. We are even.
I agree that this is the mature approach, but I suspect the OP would take that as "defending the company":).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;940102
Agreed.  If no money has changed hands there is no fraud, and the courts really don't care that some guy's dinkie is bruised because he didn't get a book he wanted.
So, unless the OP can confirm money have changed hands, he's got no case to claim fraud. And in fact, his whole thread might be libellous, if the US law system is anything like the one we've got here;).
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Trond on January 12, 2017, 10:57:48 AM
The publisher behind Artesia did something similar, albeit perhaps not quite as bad. The first (and only) book was released, and I'd say it was fairly complete and detailed. Many areas  were supposed to be expanded upon later though. There were a few pieces of additional RPG info in the comics (mostly NPCs). Then, the publisher decides not to expand on the existing, award-winning game, but to redo the whole thing with a new system. Why? Don't know, but it was apparently stuck in play-testing and never published. All publication of Artesia materials (comics and all) ground to a halt, and nothing more will likely happen.

Despite all that, it is still a very solid game, one of my favorites.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Nexus on January 12, 2017, 01:01:50 PM
Quote from: Trond;940155
The publisher behind Artesia did something similar, albeit perhaps not quite as bad. The first (and only) book was released, and I'd say it was fairly complete and detailed. Many areas  were supposed to be expanded upon later though. There were a few pieces of additional RPG info in the comics (mostly NPCs). Then, the publisher decides not to expand on the existing, award-winning game, but to redo the whole thing with a new system. Why? Don't know, but it was apparently stuck in play-testing and never published. All publication of Artesia materials (comics and all) ground to a halt, and nothing more will likely happen.

Despite all that, it is still a very solid game, one of my favorites.


I was wondering what happenedto that game and the comics. Shame, the comics were good stuff.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Crüesader on January 12, 2017, 04:14:41 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;940101
... White Dwarf is still devoid of actually useful content but they actually responded after a couple years of losses.  Now, I say hold them down until they bring back the Squats but I'm just a vicious bastard.

They did give some extra characters for Gorechosen, and a Slaughterpriest with his rules for both Gorechosen and Silver Tower.  There was also a bit of stuff for Deathwatch: Overkill in there.  The last few issues have had some decent missions.  But, as I understand- everything prior to like, October- was basically multiple pages of advertisements and paint-wank.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Tristram Evans on January 12, 2017, 04:32:54 PM
Quote from: Nexus;940187
I was wondering what happenedto that game and the comics. Shame, the comics were good stuff.

I heard that the comics incorporated a lot of stuff the author had originally intended for his Dune film adaptation in the 70s.

I always wanted to read the comics, but never got around to it.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Michael Gray on January 12, 2017, 04:57:44 PM
Quote from: Tristram Evans;940093
Wow, yeah,you really don't know GW.

Their approach to their customer base is slash and burn on a five year cycle to make room for the new blood.


I'm...actually going to somewhat disagree and say their approach WAS to do that. But they've been bringing back some old classics lately (Blood Bowl) and putting a lot of new games out (Gorechosen, Silver Tower, and Assassinorum are all good to excellent and Gangs of Comorragh aka Dark Elf Necromunda looks FANTASTIC). They've really turned around since about January or February of last year. Let's hope that they keep up with it instead of falling back on old habits.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Tristram Evans on January 12, 2017, 05:23:32 PM
Quote from: Michael Gray;940259
I'm...actually going to somewhat disagree and say their approach WAS to do that. But they've been bringing back some old classics lately (Blood Bowl) and putting a lot of new games out (Gorechosen, Silver Tower, and Assassinorum are all good to excellent and Gangs of Comorragh aka Dark Elf Necromunda looks FANTASTIC). They've really turned around since about January or February of last year. Let's hope that they keep up with it instead of falling back on old habits.

True, the new boss seems to be pretty awesome overall, even if he hasn't undone the damage of AoS yet.  But what happens with 8th edition remains to be seen.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Omega on January 13, 2017, 01:08:03 AM
Quote from: Crüesader;940238
They did give some extra characters for Gorechosen, and a Slaughterpriest with his rules for both Gorechosen and Silver Tower.  There was also a bit of stuff for Deathwatch: Overkill in there.  The last few issues have had some decent missions.  But, as I understand- everything prior to like, October- was basically multiple pages of advertisements and paint-wank.

About once per new release they drop in something actually game play related. Like a little adventure, a new monster, whatever. Then they went the Promo exclusive route with Silver Tower. Which didnt sit too well with anyone left out of the loop or where the stores just kept the promos and e-bayed them.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Omega on January 13, 2017, 01:14:07 AM
Quote from: Michael Gray;940259
I'm...actually going to somewhat disagree and say their approach WAS to do that. But they've been bringing back some old classics lately (Blood Bowl) and putting a lot of new games out (Gorechosen, Silver Tower, and Assassinorum are all good to excellent and Gangs of Comorragh aka Dark Elf Necromunda looks FANTASTIC). They've really turned around since about January or February of last year. Let's hope that they keep up with it instead of falling back on old habits.

And yet are still gouging the customers with absurd prices. Drop new games without any support, and other stunts and from all reports never stopped fucking with FLGS and foreign stores. Australia is still getting the shaft as of last statement from a retailer over there.

Theyve put on a friendly mask. But the bloodstains are kinda giving away the real face. They'll play this game untill they think they have appeased the fans enough for the company to not go tits up as it deserves to.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: HappyDaze on January 13, 2017, 01:27:36 AM
My own gripe right now is with FFG. In 2014 they put out the Age of Rebellion Core Rulebook. It had some errors in it, no biggie, such things happen...

Over the next two years they collected errata and then put out a reprint several months ago that incorporated the errata. Sounds good, right? But wait...

They still haven't released the errata on its own, so if you bought the original printing of the book you still don't have access to the corrections.

I am not going to spend another $60 just to get the errata.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Claudius on January 13, 2017, 02:21:33 AM
Quote from: Baulderstone;940088
That aside, I'm not ready to get too pissed off at this company. They sold the OP a corebook. You apparently found it is a solid enough game that he went out and bought a bunch of supplements for. Play the game in that corebook that you like so much.

Although I don't agree with the OP's point of view, I would like to highlight this post. The OP liked the Cthulhupunk corebook, so much that he bought several supplements. Then suddenly, he disliked it so much, that he resold all the material. But the corebook is the same, if it was good back then, why is it not good anymore?

Quote
Are there gamelines that never covered everything I wanted? Sure! Plenty of them. I really would have liked to see an Annunaki book for Fading Suns. Never happened. I still had a lot of fun with that game. I'm not seething with rage at HDI about it. I don't get to have an Annunaki book, and they don't get to have the money I would have spent on it. We are even.

Fading Suns, if its system was half as good as its setting...
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Omega on January 13, 2017, 04:09:01 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze;940348
Over the next two years they collected errata and then put out a reprint several months ago that incorporated the errata. Sounds good, right? But wait...

Is the errata though online anywhere in parts? Or is it all just in the book?
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: HappyDaze on January 13, 2017, 05:08:18 AM
Quote from: Omega;940360
Is the errata though online anywhere in parts? Or is it all just in the book?

Just in the book. I've had to beg others to post bits of it, such as the correct stats for the Sentinel-class landing craft. Hard to say what all has been fixed.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Omega on January 13, 2017, 07:50:35 AM
Yeah that does sound like gouging if they arent providing the errata separate or at least have them collected in a forum thread or something. Has anyone suggested they post the erratta for those who bought allready and got faulty books? Or can you trade in your old book to them for the new?

But this is FFG afterall so it really shouldnt surprise if they arent doing any of the above. Though I'd still try the replacement route if all else fails.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: David Johansen on January 13, 2017, 09:20:29 AM
Quote from: Crüesader;940238
They did give some extra characters for Gorechosen, and a Slaughterpriest with his rules for both Gorechosen and Silver Tower.  There was also a bit of stuff for Deathwatch: Overkill in there.  The last few issues have had some decent missions.  But, as I understand- everything prior to like, October- was basically multiple pages of advertisements and paint-wank.


Wow, I'm amazed.  Real content in White Dwarf again.  I wonder how long this can continue.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: (un)reason on January 13, 2017, 01:31:18 PM
Quote from: Baulderstone;940088
I have both sets for B/X, and I really don't recall anything said about a forthcoming Companion set. I seem to recall them being a complete, self-contained game. Am I forgetting something?

Page 29. There is a way to restore energy drain in the Companion set. Something that seems like a small reference, but will obviously acquire great urgency to the players the first time they fight a wight. :D
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Trond on January 13, 2017, 02:12:42 PM
Quote from: Tristram Evans;940249
I heard that the comics incorporated a lot of stuff the author had originally intended for his Dune film adaptation in the 70s.......


?
That does not sound right.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Sommerjon on January 13, 2017, 02:15:59 PM
Quote from: Cave Bear;940065
Why do you have to drag pee-pees into this, Gronan?

Because he has a cock obsession.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Crawford Tillinghast on January 13, 2017, 03:03:04 PM
I can see where the OP is coming from.  I've posted my own "Dear , are you trying to destroy your customer base?  Because your current policy is succeeding admirably.  
In this case, Cthulhutech isn't just a game, it's a setting:  You have a rules system, a bestiary, and some adventure modules, but what you don't have - is a sourcebook.  Sure, you can run it.  From the PC's perspective: "Who are these guys and what are they trying to do?" and the answer is "Trying to conquer or destroy the planet - what more do you need?" is a perfectly valid answer.  For the referee however, the goals and motivations of the Big Bad are much more relevant.  If something happens and you have to make a guess why the villains would do such a thing, you have to make something up.  And then, when the source book finally comes out and gives a different answer, you then have to either retcon the whole thing, or think up a patch between what happened and what would have happened if you had the source book.

OTOH

Lack of a source book can be a good thing.  My ancient and moribund Call of Cthulhu campaign started with the very first edition:  The one where Nodens is using a Grimm of Nightgaunts to lay down an Elder Sign.  When the supplements came out I said:

"No, Serpentfolk are very different from this."
"No, ghouls are very different from this."
"No, Hastur is very different from this."
"No..."
So my campaign, if it ever runs again, will be totally NOT standard Call of Cthulhu.  Because I made my own sourcebook as things came along, and never bothered with published dogma.  I don't think that would work with CthulhuTech, because the whole question of "What are the Big Bads up to?" is more central to the setting.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: The Butcher on January 13, 2017, 05:08:55 PM
Quote from: Trond;940442
?That does not sound right.


I do believe Mssr. Evans may have Artesia/Mark Smylie and The Incal/Metabarons/Alejandro Jodorowsky mixed up.

Artesia takes after Mark Smylie's Runequest game, or so I'm told.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Darrin Kelley on January 13, 2017, 05:11:57 PM
Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast;940449
I don't think that would work with CthulhuTech, because the whole question of "What are the Big Bads up to?" is more central to the setting.

This! Entirely this!

Someone finally gets my point of view.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Omega on January 13, 2017, 08:09:09 PM
er... then no one ever actually could play the game because some of the villains arent explained?

I assume thats not really the case and theres some bare basic info on these factions enough?
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Simlasa on January 14, 2017, 12:25:56 AM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;940469
This! Entirely this!

Someone finally gets my point of view.
I think most all of us understood and sympathized, to some extent, with your feelings regarding some missing setting information... we just didn't ride along to the full extent of your sense of victimization and entitlement.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Darrin Kelley on January 14, 2017, 12:36:12 AM
Quote from: Omega;940487
er... then no one ever actually could play the game because some of the villains arent explained?

I assume thats not really the case and theres some bare basic info on these factions enough?

Basic generic cultists. And a very few monsters scattered here and there. That's the full extent of what was detailed regarding any of those factions.

The true meat of those factions disposition was always being reserved for that one book. Always put off for it.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Nexus on January 14, 2017, 12:57:17 AM
Quote from: Simlasa;940511
I think most all of us understood and sympathized, to some extent, with your feelings regarding some missing setting information... we just didn't ride along to the full extent of your sense of victimization and entitlement.

Yeah this. Hell I'm disappointed about the source book but its a far cry from Fraud, IMO and if you enjoyed the core and thought the mechanics were functional then the game is playable without it.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Crüesader on January 14, 2017, 03:26:05 AM
Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast;940449
In this case, Cthulhutech isn't just a game, it's a setting:  You have a rules system, a bestiary, and some adventure modules, but what you don't have - is a sourcebook.  Sure, you can run it.  From the PC's perspective: "Who are these guys and what are they trying to do?" and the answer is "Trying to conquer or destroy the planet - what more do you need?" is a perfectly valid answer.  For the referee however, the goals and motivations of the Big Bad are much more relevant.  If something happens and you have to make a guess why the villains would do such a thing, you have to make something up.  And then, when the source book finally comes out and gives a different answer, you then have to either retcon the whole thing, or think up a patch between what happened and what would have happened if you had the source book.

Question- is Cthulutech cross-compatable with Call of Cthulu?

Also- played a character once that used a DMT stimulation aug in his brain called the 'Tillinghast Implant'.  From Beyond is one of my favorite stories.  Ever seen the flick "Banshee Chapter"?  If not, DO IT!
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Kyle Aaron on January 14, 2017, 04:53:47 AM
These are important issues.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Spike on January 14, 2017, 05:06:07 AM
Quote from: trechriron;939984
Darrin. It's time for some tough love. The above clipped statement is IN FACT the most important part of your post. You may not realize it yet, so let me frame your situation as succinctly and directly as I can.

First, the folks who created Cthulutech are better than you. In pretty much every measurable way. Most importantly they created something. Something you loved. Something you loved so deeply you became emotionally attached to it. That is unto like a power of the gods. They made you love Darrin. That alone proves their superiority.

Second, as smart creative and successful people do, they decided to change things up. Because that's what free thinkers do. So they made a change. They likely had no idea you were in love with them. Being superior to you in every way, they already had all the love they needed from their circle. This love circle proves once again their superiority.

Finally, after trying to form a mob, boycott the company, sell all your products at a loss, and entreat multiple fora you have (as is factually evident here) lost. You lost. You failed to accomplish anything except lose money and shit yourself. In this "war" the Cthulutech people have proven, without any shadow of a doubt, how superior they are to you.

You are clearly done. Completely done. You have failed and lost. It's over.

What to do now? Lament that there are people in the world that are better than you? Feel sorry for yourself?

How about instead you find a game you actually like and play it. Then come here and talk about what you like about that game.

In this, you will have all the power. You will have complete control of your destiny. No longer will you be shackled by the superior creatives of Cthulutech and you can command the FULL POWER of your fully operational FREE WILL.

Darrin - we're pulling for you man. We're hoping you learned something from your experience.

Now pull yourself up. Brush off the hurt-dirt. Un-pucker your butthole and get on with it.

You deserve happiness which can only be found by you.

Good luck bro.

Sincerely,


I love you, man....
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: soltakss on January 14, 2017, 06:47:14 AM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;939843
I believe I have a right to stand up and cry foul at bad game company behavior. And even more so to recommend that people not buy said company's products because of it. I believe it is my right as a consumer to point that out.

The incident happened almost two years ago: Wildfire. The company that produced Cthulhutech had been promising a supplement to their game for a couple of years. This supplement detailed the last third, and most important of the main antagonists of the game. In essence, the game was incomplete without it. And a whole community was patiently waiting for it. So they could actually use the game to its full capacity.

Two years passed. The Wildfire announced that instead of finishing said supplement. That they would instead produce a 2nd Edition of the game instead. Leaving all of the people who had bought the first edition and all of its supplements with an incomplete product line.


For Glorantha, we waited thirty years for some promised supplements to come out. You must be really impatient!

I can see that as being frustrating, but the games company might have had some very good reasons. Perhaps sales were not high enough to warrant the promised supplement. Perhaps they could not get the right author, editor, printer or whatever. Perhaps playing showed up problems with the game that meant a revised edition might have been necessary.

Having said that, I don't have much interest in CthulhuTech, so haven't been following what has happened.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Omega on January 14, 2017, 07:43:53 AM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;940512
Basic generic cultists. And a very few monsters scattered here and there. That's the full extent of what was detailed regarding any of those factions.

The true meat of those factions disposition was always being reserved for that one book. Always put off for it.


What I thought. So mostly the lesser lights here and there but the real meat of the faction was kept quiet to sell a book that never came. The implication is the book is coming but Id bet they never actually came out and said it IS coming or if they did. Never got to the taking orders part. I also doubt that they sold the core game with the promise of all these supplements coming.

So sorry. No. Not fraud in the usual sense. Probably nothing that would ever hold in court either. The core product was never advertised as needing these (so far) never released books. And it looks like the books may still get released under the 2nd ed flag.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Omega on January 14, 2017, 08:04:28 AM
Now on the topic of treating customers badly. Privateer Press used to get alot of flack for their really bad customer service. Their Monsterpocalypse game in particular had some really screwy packaging problems for a blind buy collectible minis game. Like oh... The minis not being in the box... No. Im not joking. Got two starters for my birthday and both were empty.

The problem was that someone at their CS just would not see to the reports and would outright lie as to replacement units being on their way. Some customers got really pissed. But if you could punch through that wall of interference then PP was really good at fixing mistakes. But a year, or two, of the runaround and "We will ship it tomorrow!" over and over is not good for business. They eventually did something about the CS, or lack thereof and have been super with fixing problems since from all accounts and my own experience.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Crawford Tillinghast on January 14, 2017, 05:55:08 PM
Quote from: Crüesader;940522
Question- is Cthulutech cross-compatable with Call of Cthulu?


Off the top of my head, I don't think so.  First, they're entirely different character generation and task resolution systems.  Without comparing the two systems more closely, it doesn't look like they are compatible.

Second, The bad guys so out power the investigators in CoC that the general rule is, "If you are in combat, you've already lost."  CT has Mecha, so the player characters could actually fight back against mythos entities in direct combat.  

Quote from: Crüesader;940522
Also- played a character once that used a DMT stimulation aug in his brain called the 'Tillinghast Implant'.  From Beyond is one of my favorite stories.  Ever seen the flick "Banshee Chapter"?  If not, DO IT!


I'll have to look for that one, thank you. :)
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Simlasa on January 14, 2017, 06:12:36 PM
Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast;940604
Second, The bad guys so out power the investigators in CoC that the general rule is, "If you are in combat, you've already lost."  CT has Mecha, so the player characters could actually fight back against mythos entities in direct combat.
In the past I've toyed with the idea of reading up on the setting with an eye towards using it with a combination of Cthulhu Rising and BRP's BGB corebook (BRP Mecha is a different sort of thing IIRC).
I kind of like the idea of a brutal intermingling of Robotech and Evangelion.



Banshee Chapter was pretty great... I liked Ted Levine's go at playing a Hunter S. Thompson-ish character.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Old One Eye on January 14, 2017, 06:26:04 PM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;940469
This! Entirely this!

Someone finally gets my point of view.


I know nothing about the game, and so, am willing to concede the game is unplayable without the information in that particular book that was never released.

So here is the problem with your lamentations.  Somehow you seem perfectly fine with buying book 1 - unplayable game.  You buy book 2 - unplayable game.  You buy book 3 - unplayable game.  You buy book 4 - unplayable game.  You buy book 5 - unplayable game.  You buy book 6 - unplayable game.  You buy book 7 - unplayable game.  You buy book 8 - unplayable game.  You buy book 9 - unplayable game.  You buy book 10 - unplayable game.

And somehow you are upset that you cannot keep buying books for a game that remains unplayable this whole time.  You do not see how you have some responsibility to at some point in buying all those books to ask yourself whether this game is ever going to be playable?
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Tristram Evans on January 14, 2017, 07:17:33 PM
Quote from: Old One Eye;940609
I know nothing about the game, and so, am willing to concede the game is unplayable without the information in that particular book that was never released.

So here is the problem with your lamentations.  Somehow you seem perfectly fine with buying book 1 - unplayable game.  You buy book 2 - unplayable game.  You buy book 3 - unplayable game.  You buy book 4 - unplayable game.  You buy book 5 - unplayable game.  You buy book 6 - unplayable game.  You buy book 7 - unplayable game.  You buy book 8 - unplayable game.  You buy book 9 - unplayable game.  You buy book 10 - unplayable game.

And somehow you are upset that you cannot keep buying books for a game that remains unplayable this whole time.  You do not see how you have some responsibility to at some point in buying all those books to ask yourself whether this game is ever going to be playable?

(https://media.giphy.com/media/x7gjmBuaHrWak/giphy.gif)
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: remial on January 14, 2017, 07:30:35 PM
I would argue that without Dead Gods, Cthulhutech IS unplayable, but only for certain types of campaigns.  

if your game is focused entirely on driving off the Mi-Go in mecha battles in space, then a book on human cultists really isn't going to do you any good.

similarly, if you are focusing on Tagers fighting the Dhohanoids a book on Mi-Go won't help you.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Nexus on January 14, 2017, 07:51:33 PM
The information provided seemed fine for an initial and mid play game. The PCs usually aren't going to get into the deep machinations for awhile. Yeah, after a certain point you'll have to make things up and extrapolate but I'd say "unplayable" is a major overstatement; particularly if you're speaking of play from the beginning. Unless you're very concerned about being true to canon and metaplot.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Darrin Kelley on March 16, 2017, 01:19:21 PM
Quote from: Omega;940025
Did they ever say they were definitly 100% going to make those books? Or was it just a nebulous working through the factions thing. Because if it is the second then sorry, those things have a known tendency to never get quite completed before something happens.

Yes. They did. For two years.

They had constant updates to customers all of that period of that time. Stating that book was the very next thing due out.

This isn't a case of maybes. The company's announcements were clear cut and unmistakeably definite on the matter.

Also. The upcoming 2nd Edition isn't compatible with the original system. It's a whole new system. Meaning that customers will have to start all over again from square one. Because the prior edition would be completely obsolete and incompatible with the new.

Note: Sorry it took so long for a response to this. I did not intend to leave your question unanswered.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: dsivis on March 16, 2017, 01:44:02 PM
Let's not forget the entire history of incompetence and false promises at Palladium, Inc...
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Darrin Kelley on March 16, 2017, 01:54:42 PM
Quote from: dsivis;951926
Let's not forget the entire history of incompetence and false promises at Palladium, Inc...

Voted with my wallet quite some time ago on that. I stopped buying any of Palladium's products many, many years ago. And I haven't looked back.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: ZWEIHÄNDER on March 16, 2017, 02:09:52 PM
I don't believe the poster is too far off the mark here.  

In a cottage industry, where a game company's reputation drives virtually all sales for an even more niche product, it is a producer's job to deliver as they promised. It is also important for a game company to do some sort of make-good for previous buyers when they suddenly pivot in a new direction (particularly if they are asking for buy-in on a new edition before the old project was completed).

I've said this numerous times, but game companies must attend to loyal customers first, and worry about new customers last.

Bottom line: don't make promises you cannot keep. And if you can't keep them, explain why and take care of your customer base.

EDIT
Here's a good example. In my Kickstarter (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/grimandperilous/zweihander-grim-and-perilous-rpg), I promised to include a 15 page supplement for Dark Astral (Warhammer 40k analogue) as a stretch goal. It was included in the Early Access PDF released to backers, but after running it through the rounds, it clearly needed fine-tuning and more playtesting. I decided to pull it out, leaving one of the stretch goals unfulfilled. As a make-good to customers, I decided to include the 35 page adventure 'A Bitter Harvest' into the main book (thereby losing money by not selling the adventure as a separate product). Dark Astral will be released later as a free PDF, once it's undergone the rigors of continued playtesting. Those are the sort of sacrifices you must be willing to make to be a 'good' producer. Be honest with your customers, and they'll be loyal in return.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Darrin Kelley on March 16, 2017, 03:14:06 PM
If they had made good with their customers. I wouldn't have any issues with them. But they didn't.

As a loyal customer who spent quite near $400 on their products. I felt cheated by the promises they made but didn't keep.

I could have easily used that money elsewhere in my life. Instead of wasting it supporting a company who were never going finish what they started.

They completely disrespected their loyal customers. So in my view: They don't deserve any customers at all.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Black Vulmea on March 16, 2017, 03:32:59 PM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;951941
If they had made good with their customers. I wouldn't have any issues with them. But they didn't.

As a loyal customer who spent quite near $400 on their products. I felt cheated by the promises they made but didn't keep.

I could have easily used that money elsewhere in my life. Instead of wasting it supporting a company who were never going finish what they started

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/56/21/da/5621da7d54599885e2d9420eb44d3beb.jpg)
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: crkrueger on March 16, 2017, 03:57:45 PM
Quote from: Black Vulmea;951950
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/56/21/da/5621da7d54599885e2d9420eb44d3beb.jpg)
Careful, you might get branded a cyber-stalking character assassin. ;)
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Xanther on March 16, 2017, 04:15:53 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;951964
... a cyber-stalking character assassin. ;)
 Isn't that a character class in Paranoia ?
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Omega on March 16, 2017, 04:23:48 PM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;951923
Yes. They did. For two years.

They had constant updates to customers all of that period of that time. Stating that book was the very next thing due out.


If so then yeah thats annoying as all hell and possibly more than a little underhanded depending on how it all plays out.

Usually this happens as a publisher is transitioning to a new edition. Which is another reason to despise the damn incompatible edition treadmill some publishers are so enamoured with. Wouldnt be a problem if the new edition were backwards compatible.

Though I thought thered been statements that the new version was backwards compatible?
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Darrin Kelley on March 16, 2017, 04:39:13 PM
Quote from: Omega;951977
Though I thought thered been statements that the new version was backwards compatible?

Nope. Not going to be.

They are rebuilding from dead scratch. It might as well not even be the same game with the extent they are going to.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: crkrueger on March 16, 2017, 05:43:34 PM
Quote
V2.0 will continue the meta plot and the events that have already occurred will be outlined in the core book. The events that are going to take place in Dead Gods will be the first of the new metaplot events to be revealed following V2.0s release. V2.0 will not go into the same detail on past events as the previous metaplot books do but will provide a general summary of what has happened so far. If people want to read the details they will need to pickup the previously published metaplot books.

The reason we went this route is related to combination of a lot of internal discussions and a lot of conversations with players at various shows. It was decided that we did not want to basically reprint a bunch of material already done and the vast majority of players did not want to feel they needed to purchase new editions of books they already have so they can find little changes we may have made. We also did not want to rewrite material we've already written.
We are splitting the timelines of Shadow War and the Aeon War apart going forward but the overall meta plot, which is following a long-establish internal document, is not going to change overall.

Quote
Right now, our plan is to release the Dead Gods content fluff in a way that isn't tied to the crunch, and to offer it both combined with 2nd ed. material and standalone for folks who want to use it for their existing games. Backwards compatibility for the setting is definitely something we've got in mind for the rollout of the new edition.

So "finish" the setting from V1 with compatible setting material, and then move forward with V2, which will be continuing the setting with a new system.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Tristram Evans on March 16, 2017, 05:45:23 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;951991
So "finish" the setting from V1 with compatible setting material, and then move forward with V2, which will be continuing the setting with a new system.

what, a completely logical and fair evaluation? Why, we'll have none of that here interfering with our entitled fanboy butthurt!
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Ras Algethi on March 16, 2017, 06:44:49 PM
Probably a good reason why companies shouldn't not communicate future plans with their customers. If they change those plans, they are called liars.... it's just not worth it.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Tristram Evans on March 16, 2017, 06:53:07 PM
Quote from: Ras Algethi;951998
Probably a good reason why companies shouldn't not communicate future plans with their customers. If they change those plans, they are called liars.... it's just not worth it.

Yeah, but just look at the slack GW got for years for its lack of communication
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Ras Algethi on March 16, 2017, 07:15:57 PM
Quote from: Tristram Evans;952001
Yeah, but just look at the slack GW got for years for its lack of communication

Sometimes you can't win. If, as a company, you layout what your plans are and then change them, you are crucified for lying and misleading customers. If you just keep quiet and release what you release, you're ignoring your customers and keeping them in the dark.

At the end of the day, what's worse? Being called a liar/accused of misleading customers or not communicating with the customer?
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Tristram Evans on March 16, 2017, 07:44:15 PM
eh, there's always going to be the fringe crazy. If I were a company, I'd ignore them and produce the products I like under the assumption the quality will speak for itself and find an audience.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Kyle Aaron on March 16, 2017, 08:45:55 PM
Actually Tristram this is a common thing with management everywhere. The restaurant manager spends all their time dealing with the customer who says, "this food is terrible and there's not nearly enough," the gym manager with the guy who complains there's no copy of the Financial Times to read, and so on. In principle you should just ignore them, in practice they insist on being heard.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Charon's Little Helper on March 16, 2017, 08:59:39 PM
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;952023
Actually Tristram this is a common thing with management everywhere. The restaurant manager spends all their time dealing with the customer who says, "this food is terrible and there's not nearly enough," the gym manager with the guy who complains there's no copy of the Financial Times to read, and so on. In principle you should just ignore them, in practice they insist on being heard.

Plus - those are the guys who will go on a crusade against your company if you DON'T hear them.  (Ex: this thread)  And frankly, that same type of person is sometimes the kind of person who can be your biggest fan if they like you.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Tristram Evans on March 16, 2017, 09:04:00 PM
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;952023
Actually Tristram this is a common thing with management everywhere. The restaurant manager spends all their time dealing with the customer who says, "this food is terrible and there's not nearly enough," the gym manager with the guy who complains there's no copy of the Financial Times to read, and so on. In principle you should just ignore them, in practice they insist on being heard.

Well, retail and food businesses are in a bit of a worse position, but even then they can and do write-off the business of a customer who pushes the line from legitimate complaint to fanatical nonsense. I know that from just from my time as a young man, when inevitably I was put in the position of dealing with such nuisances. And sure there is an art to deciphering between legitimate complaints and feedback from an audience, and quite a few personalities in the RPG hobby have become infamous for handling it badly (Gygax and Kevin S. of Palladium immediately coming to mind). But ultimately there is no point in trying to please everyone, and the only person a creator should place the priority on pleasing is themselves.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Voros on March 16, 2017, 09:14:44 PM
Quote from: Ras Algethi;951998
Probably a good reason why companies shouldn't not communicate future plans with their customers. If they change those plans, they are called liars.... it's just not worth it.


I agree. Most communication with 'fans' should be kept strictly on the surface. Ignore the insults and trolls. Notice that WoTC only announces a new book when it's a few months from release now?

Some designers, Zak and Phil Fish come to mind, get too caught up in internet drama instead of keeping their heads down and focused on producing content.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Darrin Kelley on March 16, 2017, 10:06:57 PM
Typical. An entitled customer service troll.

And one that believes that businesses are above the law. And are entitled to lie, abuse and steal from their customers all they want without facing any kind of accountabiliy.

That garbage doesn't fly in the real world. Where there are consumer protection laws.

And they accuse me of being unstable for simply standing up for myself? That's a flipping laugh!
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: crkrueger on March 16, 2017, 10:09:03 PM
W
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;952042
Typical. An entitled customer service troll.

And one that believes that businesses are above the law. And are entitled to lie, abuse and steal from their customers all they want without facing any kind of accountabiliy.

That garbage doesn't fly in the real world. Where there are consumer protection laws.

And they accuse me of being unstable for simply standing up for myself? That's a flipping laugh!

This guy is actually nuts, isn't he?  I mean not kind of nuts, like most of us, but really over the line...
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Darrin Kelley on March 16, 2017, 10:23:29 PM
Just keep digging that hole for yourself. Keep up the personal attacks. Keep up homophobic slurs. Keep up the defamation.

I can wait. Eventually it will reach the tipping point where the mods will take no more. And you, and your friends will have to find a new place on the net to act like complete sociopaths.

I'm going nowhere.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Tristram Evans on March 16, 2017, 10:24:41 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;952043
This guy is actually nuts, isn't he?  I mean not kind of nuts, like most of us, but really over the line...

Yeah, he's gone past "running an Otherkin blog on Tumblr" territory into "this guy probably needs to be on some form of medication"
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: crkrueger on March 16, 2017, 10:25:20 PM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;952044
Just keep digging that hole for yourself. Keep up the personal attacks. Keep up homophobic slurs. Keep up the defamation.

I can wait. Eventually it will reach the tipping point where the mods will take no more. And you, and your friends will have to find a new place on the net to act like complete sociopaths.

I thought you were ignoring me?  But since you aren't...homophobic?
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Darrin Kelley on March 16, 2017, 10:59:42 PM
Try actually looking up the meanings of the internet memes you are tempted to use before you spout them.

And just because I have you on ignore, doesn't mean I am unable to see the things you have posted when you are quoted by others.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Charon's Little Helper on March 16, 2017, 11:05:15 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;952046
I thought you were ignoring me?  But since you aren't...homophobic?

Yeah - I didn't get that one either.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Charon's Little Helper on March 16, 2017, 11:08:49 PM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;952042
That garbage doesn't fly in the real world. Where there are consumer protection laws.


I suggest that you actually read those - because they are absolutely nothing like what you seem to think they are.  I mean - they've gotten broad enough that they're kinda silly, but they're not THAT silly.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Tristram Evans on March 16, 2017, 11:10:06 PM
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;952053
I suggest that you actually read those - because they are absolutely nothing like what you seem to think they are.  I mean - they've gotten broad enough that they're kinda silly, but they're not THAT silly.

I couldnt even tell what he was saying he needed protection from
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Ras Algethi on March 16, 2017, 11:20:32 PM
Quote from: Tristram Evans;952009
eh, there's always going to be the fringe crazy. If I were a company, I'd ignore them and produce the products I like under the assumption the quality will speak for itself and find an audience.

But you seem to end up dealing with the crazies.

*not you specifically ;p
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Charon's Little Helper on March 16, 2017, 11:21:08 PM
Quote from: Tristram Evans;952054
I couldnt even tell what he was saying he needed protection from

From earlier posts - I believe that he's claiming some sort of fraud because of the company talking too much about future supplements for the system, and he pinned all of his hopes and dreams on them.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Ras Algethi on March 16, 2017, 11:21:38 PM
Quote from: Voros;952035
I agree. Most communication with 'fans' should be kept strictly on the surface. Ignore the insults and trolls. Notice that WoTC only announces a new book when it's a few months from release now?

Some designers, Zak and Phil Fish come to mind, get too caught up in internet drama instead of keeping their heads down and focused on producing content.


Sounds like a safe, and reasonable, way to do it.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Ras Algethi on March 16, 2017, 11:26:07 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;952043
W

This guy is actually nuts, isn't he?  I mean not kind of nuts, like most of us, but really over the line...


It's almost like there is a conversation going on that we're not hearing. I mean, if I tweet that I am going to buy a Samsung tv next month and then I don't.... does Samsung have something actionable against me? Or did I simply change my mind.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Nexus on March 16, 2017, 11:29:42 PM
Quote from: Xanther;951973
Isn't that a character class in Paranoia ?


I thought it was a Rifts OOC?
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 17, 2017, 12:28:35 AM
Quote from: Tristram Evans;952045
Yeah, he's gone past "running an Otherkin blog on Tumblr" territory into "this guy probably needs to be on some form of medication"

Actually, he seems more like a precocious 13 year old, especially in terms of knowing what "breach of promise" and "consumer protection laws" actually ARE.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 17, 2017, 12:30:18 AM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;952044
Just keep digging that hole for yourself. Keep up the personal attacks. Keep up homophobic slurs. Keep up the defamation.

I can wait. Eventually it will reach the tipping point where the mods will take no more. And you, and your friends will have to find a new place on the net to act like complete sociopaths.

I'm going nowhere.

Oh, my...
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: crkrueger on March 17, 2017, 12:34:46 AM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;952050
Try actually looking up the meanings of the internet memes you are tempted to use before you spout them.
Which meme would that be?  The e-card that Black Vulmea, not me, posted?

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;952050
And just because I have you on ignore, doesn't mean I am unable to see the things you have posted when you are quoted by others.
Except you've responded twice now before anyone quoted me. :D
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Apparition on March 17, 2017, 12:51:23 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;952043
This guy is actually nuts, isn't he?  I mean not kind of nuts, like most of us, but really over the line...


I believe "coo-coo for Cocoa Puffs" is the medical terminology.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Nexus on March 17, 2017, 01:22:12 AM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;952044
Just keep digging that hole for yourself. Keep up the personal attacks. Keep up homophobic slurs. Keep up the defamation.

I can wait. Eventually it will reach the tipping point where the mods will take no more. And you, and your friends will have to find a new place on the net to act like complete sociopaths.


You may be in for a rude awakening.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 17, 2017, 02:40:57 AM
Quote from: Nexus;952081
You may be in for a rude awakening.

Yeah, I'm trying to figure house odds for the book on "ragequit" versus "too fucking insane even for this asylum."
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Spinachcat on March 17, 2017, 03:00:53 AM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;951941
As a loyal customer who spent quite near $400 on their products. I felt cheated by the promises they made but didn't keep.


I can appreciate your upset.

I am a Warhammer fan, and GW had (maybe still has) a bad habit of stretching out of putting out army codexes throughout the run of an edition, and just when the book for your army comes out, BLAMMO, new edition announced. I've been hit by that and I have friends who've suffered that as well.

As for RPGs, I have a strict rule - if I can't run the game from the core book(s), I don't buy it.

Splats have to be frosting, not the cake.



Quote from: Darrin Kelley;952042
That garbage doesn't fly in the real world. Where there are consumer protection laws.


Not really.

You'd be surprised how little protection exists for customers.

99% of the time, you choke on the loss.

Do you follow Class Action lawsuits? Interesting stuff. Companies screw over thousands, or tens of thousands, for many millions over years, and then settle for pennies without admitting fault, often dodging all responsibility.

Unless a business takes your money and refuses to deliver, there is itty bitty that can be done legally.

Of course, in the age of social media, you can crap on a company online until people fear becoming new customers.


Quote from: Darrin Kelley;952044
Eventually it will reach the tipping point where the mods will take no more.


The mods here are fiercely free speech, which includes lots of badwrongthoughts du jour.

There is nothing in this thread that remotely would pique our mods.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Omega on March 17, 2017, 07:18:50 AM
Quote from: Ras Algethi;952058
It's almost like there is a conversation going on that we're not hearing. I mean, if I tweet that I am going to buy a Samsung tv next month and then I don't.... does Samsung have something actionable against me? Or did I simply change my mind.

Except in this case youve got a part of a game thats missing from the core in some way. The publisher says that missing part is coming.

They then switch to 2nd ed before completing 1st ed.

Thing is. Unless they said at the beginning that these end boos were coming and it was a selling point for the core game then theres not so much fraud as failure to produce the completed project, and the end material may or may not be vital. Where that falls is anyones guess.

I understand the irk factor. But the OPs obsession about it is a little... obsessive.

If you really think frauds been committed then talk to a lawyer. Talking on the internet isnt going to accomplish anything other than some of us shrugging and saying " So? Product lines get cut off on a regular basis."
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Xanther on March 17, 2017, 07:22:22 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;952085
.

There is nothing in this thread that remotely would pique our mods.

Exactly, this thread is far from as heated or as contentious as they can get.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: K Peterson on March 17, 2017, 08:12:33 AM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;952044
I can wait. Eventually it will reach the tipping point where the mods will take no more. And you, and your friends will have to find a new place on the net to act like complete sociopaths.


Quote from: Nexus;952081
You may be in for a rude awakening.


He might end up waiting for the heat death of the universe if he's hoping the moderators will intervene. Wrong forum for that, DK.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: AsenRG on March 17, 2017, 08:59:13 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;952043
W

This guy is actually nuts, isn't he?  I mean not kind of nuts, like most of us, but really over the line...

Who on this forum feels so normal he'd throw the first stone:)?

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;952044
Just keep digging that hole for yourself. Keep up the personal attacks. Keep up homophobic slurs. Keep up the defamation.

I can wait. Eventually it will reach the tipping point where the mods will take no more. And you, and your friends will have to find a new place on the net to act like complete sociopaths.

I'm going nowhere.

And since I'm at least the third that didn't understand it, what homophobic slurs did you see in what CRK posted?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;952084
Yeah, I'm trying to figure house odds for the book on "ragequit" versus "too fucking insane even for this asylum."


Quote from: Omega;952121
Except in this case youve got a part of a game thats missing from the core in some way. The publisher says that missing part is coming.

They then switch to 2nd ed before completing 1st ed.

Thing is. Unless they said at the beginning that these end boos were coming and it was a selling point for the core game then theres not so much fraud as failure to produce the completed project, and the end material may or may not be vital. Where that falls is anyones guess.

I understand the irk factor. But the OPs obsession about it is a little... obsessive.

If you really think frauds been committed then talk to a lawyer. Talking on the internet isnt going to accomplish anything other than some of us shrugging and saying " So? Product lines get cut off on a regular basis."

Also, even not producing an antagonists book doesn't make the whole line useless. And if selling borderline useless mechanics was fraud, I can think of several companies that would be out of business for years now:D!

Quote from: K Peterson;952129
He might end up waiting for the heat death of the universe if he's hoping the moderators will intervene. Wrong forum for that, DK.

Well, they would intervene, but not because anyone is being insulted. OTOH, it means you're free to give back as good as you got;).
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Willie the Duck on March 17, 2017, 10:57:45 AM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;952044
Just keep digging that hole for yourself. Keep up the personal attacks. Keep up homophobic slurs. Keep up the defamation.

I can wait. Eventually it will reach the tipping point where the mods will take no more. And you, and your friends will have to find a new place on the net to act like complete sociopaths.

I'm going nowhere.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;952042
Typical. An entitled customer service troll.

And one that believes that businesses are above the law. And are entitled to lie, abuse and steal from their customers all they want without facing any kind of accountabiliy.

That garbage doesn't fly in the real world. Where there are consumer protection laws.

And they accuse me of being unstable for simply standing up for myself? That's a flipping laugh!


Okay, there's always a chance that some of this will land, so let's start diplomatically and clinically.

You are significantly misinterpreting how this is going. The mods are not going to come to your defense because others are not breaking the rules. They are providing acceptable critique to your statements. This is a super free-speech-based site, and that's what such a place implies--you have the right to say whatever you like, and the responsibility to accept criticism for the nature or tenor of what you say. For someone who seems very passionate about accountability in others, you should expect to have the same burden.

Further, regardless of mod support, if you want to have any effect at all here (and you might not, that is totally up to you), you need to convince others of your position. Complaining about defamation or that you are simply standing up for yourself or whatever side issue will mean nothing if you can't convince anyone of your central premise.

I think you might be surprised, but I think a lot of people do have some significant sympathy for your overall position of being let down by a company saying that they'd make something you really wanted, and then didn't follow through. That's a bad place to be, and we agree. They let you down. Let me say it again, they let you down. They undoubtedly let themselves down too. They certainly didn't want 1e CT to be a failure (or shorter than anticipated lifespan, or however they think of it). It would be especially bad if they kept promising that it would come out as it became more evident internally that it probably wouldn't, and I hope that's not the case. Either way, it sucks all around, and we agree. It is the leap to malfeasance that people are not following along with you.

Disclaimer: I know nothing of CT, so I am just going on what has been posted here in the thread. Now, it sounds like CT stated that they were going to put out another 1st edition CT book which contains *useful* information for running a 1e CT game, but then changed their minds. Clearly there is some disagreement on whether *useful* is in fact actually *vital* and whether CT is a complete game without it. That probably an important distinction but without game-specific knowledge, I have no way to analyze it. From earlier in the thread, it is clear that there are stats for opponents in the earlier books. Thus, from a legal perspective, it would be very hard to argue that the failure to produce this last 1e product made your previous purchases useless in the same way that, I don't know, Epson starting to sell a proprietary printer cable six months before the printer was to come out, and then cancelling the printer line would be. Therefore, there's really not much of a compelling case for calling this fraud unless they were accepting pre-order money that they didn't refund or something.

So where does that leave us? Well, if you just wanted to vent, you've done that. Good job. Mission accomplished, see everyone next thread. If you want to get others to do something (including passive things, such as declining to support 2nd edition), then you will have to make your case. And by that I mean make it in a way that will actually convince others to do so. Throwing around, "That's a flipping laugh," to others responses, saying that others are acting like "complete sociopaths," or are making "homophobic slurs" (seriously, you need to very clearly back this up, and soon, to retain your credibility), and calling others "entitled customer service troll" (remember, this entire thread is about you not receiving something to which you felt entitled)-- these things Will. Not. Help. Your. Case. I'm sorry if you feel you are in the right, but you have to convince others. And you are simply not doing a good job. Best of luck if you can step back and try a different approach. If you don't want to, that's your choice, just don't expect to change any minds.


Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;952067
Actually, he seems more like a precocious 13 year old, especially in terms of knowing what "breach of promise" and "consumer protection laws" actually ARE.

I'm going to make a guess of a little older. I'm seeing 'high school sophomore who did okay in debate team and thinks he can declare victory in an argument through force of will, oblivious to the reality that success in a discussion requires actually convincing others.'
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Nexus on March 17, 2017, 11:27:53 AM
Quote from: Willie the Duck;952158
Okay, there's always a chance that some of this will land

IME, no there isn't unfortunately.

Quote
I'm going to make a guess of a little older. I'm seeing 'high school sophomore who did okay in debate team and thinks he can declare victory in an argument through force of will, oblivious to the reality that success in a discussion requires actually convincing others.'

I think he's older than that. I've seen him around for several years.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Willie the Duck on March 17, 2017, 11:47:45 AM
Quote from: Nexus;952172
IME, no there isn't unfortunately.

On some level, it doesn't matter. I'm trying to be really good about hewing close to base principals with how I post here, and sometimes that includes tilting at windmills.

Quote
I think he's older than that. I've seen him around for several years.

I was talking about what he seems like/reminds me of, which is how I took Gronan 13-y.o. comment.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Black Vulmea on March 17, 2017, 12:19:50 PM
Quote from: Nexus;952172
I think he's older than that.
Chronological age isn't the same as maturity.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Nexus on March 17, 2017, 12:23:47 PM
Quote from: Willie the Duck;952174

I was talking about what he seems like/reminds me of, which is how I took Gronan 13-y.o. comment.

Oh! sorry. :o
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 17, 2017, 02:25:19 PM
Really, there's two issues here.

"This game sucks, it's not playable, and they're not going to finish it."  Yeah, that's annoying as hell.

But "fraud" just doesn't apply.  To be fraud they'd have to take your money and give you nothing in return.

If "Gronan's Game Group" announced "The Only Damn RPG You Need", in three volumes... Vol. 1, Monsters, Vol. 2, Players, Vol. 3, Referee...

and I published and sold Vol. 1 and Vol. 2, and never did Volume 3, and the game was unplayable because of it, I have NOT committed fraud.  You got product for your money, and the fact that it's not a playable game really doesn't matter.

You'd have every right to be pissed off, sure, but in a court of law I'd be safe as houses.  You bought "Monsters," you got a book of monsters.  The fact that there's nothing you can really do with it is legally irrelevant.

Try reading the Microsoft Windows license sometime.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Nexus on March 17, 2017, 02:42:34 PM
And its not even that bad really. Cthullutech 1st is playable (mechanical issues aside) without Dead Gods. Its a Faction/Antagonist book with some setting information. Things you can extrapolate or create yourself. Its annoying and you save the time having it done for you might but it doesn't render the game unusable.

*And from I understand they do intent on releasing that setting information just not in the format or timely manner originally promised.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Omega on March 17, 2017, 04:27:48 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;952135
Also, even not producing an antagonists book doesn't make the whole line useless. And if selling borderline useless mechanics was fraud, I can think of several companies that would be out of business for years now:D!

Dont you mean not selling borderline useless mechanics? :cool:

Though I think the main point is that in this case its bits of setting lore thats missing/incomplete. Or assumes missing/incomplete. Sometimes that lore was never meant to be known/complete.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Spike on March 17, 2017, 09:02:08 PM
Not to be a post-count snob, but there is something frankly hilarious about a guy with less than two hundred posts to his name saying he's going to outlast a guy with 10k posts to his name on the forum, even given that Good Buddy Darrin actually seems to have been around for a year longer.

Like: Sure, he'll outlast the Hulk, because some twenty or thirty years from now, when we've all moved into our own private VR worlds or some shit, he'll put up a post on whatever archive is hosting the dessicated remains of the internet saying 'Told you so!', which might be his two hundreth actual post, while the Hulk, like the god damn posting machine he apparently is (you shouldn't make him angry, you don't want to see him type when he's angry...) will have stopped posting years earlier, having racked up a million god damn posts and single handedly crashing the old internet as a victory lap before moving on to VR Valhalla.

Which would make his little boast technically true and yet utterly meaningless.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: noman on March 17, 2017, 10:00:07 PM
TLDR version

I got burned in a kickstarter, it made me sad, and I can relate to what Darrin is saying.

WOT version

Some of his more...questionable...statements aside, I can actually understand where Darrin is coming from here.

A while back I backed Simple System (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/353110609/simple-system-table-top-roleplaying-game-system/description) on Kickstarter.  I saw what that guy came up with, and my mind was blown.  I had very high hopes for this game and backed it at a relatively high level.

The project went well past its goal, reaching around $30,000 in funding.  Everything looked like buttercups and rainbows.  The first few digital releases were awesome, and I couldn't wait for more.

Then, things went south.

I won't go into the details, but the bottom line is we never got our product.  No digital files, no physical rewards.  Dashing Investor stopped replying to emails and only made comments on the project page when somebody mentioned legal action.

Then he up and announces he can't finish the project, because sob story, life things, and too hard.  He promised refunds.  No refunds yet, and he's still not replying to emails.

That was what, about a year and a half ago.  People are still waiting for their refunds and begging him to just release the digital files.

I washed my hands of this when I saw the writing on the wall.  Sometimes you make a bad call with your cash.  It happens.

But I was hella pissed.  So pissed I can understand why some people make mean comments on kickstarter pages.  I get it now.  I understand.

I won't do it, though.  Not worth my hate.

The thing that gets me isn't that he didn't deliver.  It's that he took the money, isn't going to pay it back, and has the balls to tell us that he's really going to release the full digital content (he doesn’t have it because he hasn't made it) and the money he owes us (he doesn’t have the money either).  It's the bullshit that gets me.

And Darrin paid more than I did.  I get where he's coming from.

My reaction is a little different than Darrin's though.  I don't want to try to make this a thing.  I could try to take my concerns to Dashing Investor and consider legal action, but it's simply not worth my time, money, or stress.  It's not worth a fight.  Rather, I try not to let it bother me.  I try to let it go, like an angry ex-girlfriend who ran off with my favourite Hong Kong Kung-Fu DVDs.  It's all cool.  Just surges of chaos in in the madness of human life.

But I seriously detest that fucking guy.*

* Dashing Investor, not Darrin.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Charon's Little Helper on March 17, 2017, 10:15:32 PM
See noman - that's actually fraud.  He promised that if you gave him $ - he'd deliver a product.

What Darrin's complaining about may be annoying - but it's nothing even approaching fraud.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: noman on March 17, 2017, 10:26:01 PM
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;952313
See noman - that's actually fraud.  He promised that if you gave him $ - he'd deliver a product.

What Darrin's complaining about may be annoying - but it's nothing even approaching fraud.


In a sense, yes.  But I have the feeling Dashing Investor didn't go into this project with the intent to defraud.  I think he really meant to follow through.

But he got a lot more money than he was asking for.  What started out as a hobby suddenly became a business.  I have the strong sense that he just wasn't up to it, and couldn't handle it.  He quit because he wanted to so some fun kindergarten craft stuff, and suddenly found himself becoming a RPG publisher.

I mean, if this guy was a pro, he'd be long gone by now.  He's still making empty promises whenever the backers get too angry or somebody mentions the L word.*

* Lawyer.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Tristram Evans on March 17, 2017, 10:31:38 PM
Did the thread miss the part where the company actually said they were going to release the said info to fans for free? Because as far as I'm concerned thats not only above and beyond on the company's part, it render's Darrin's entire tantrum null and void.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Darrin Kelley on March 17, 2017, 10:40:56 PM
That actually isn't what they said. They said that the non-mechanics material in the 2nd Edition would be compatible with the first.

They were not releasing anything for free.

Non-mechanics material. Think about that very closely. They expected the customers they fucked for years to just go and buy the 2nd Edition.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Tristram Evans on March 17, 2017, 10:57:28 PM
Quote
Right now, our plan is to release the Dead Gods content fluff in a way that isn't tied to the crunch, and to offer it both combined with 2nd ed. material and standalone for folks who want to use it for their existing games. Backwards compatibility for the setting is definitely something we've got in mind for the rollout of the new edition.

So they're going out of their way to prioritize backwards compatibility and accommodate fans who want to stick with the original edition.

Yeah, what awful fraudulent hucksters. Utter bastards they are.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 17, 2017, 11:02:56 PM
Yes, it stinks.  But it still isn't fraud.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Willie the Duck on March 17, 2017, 11:05:56 PM
Quote from: noman;952315
Some of his more...questionable...statements aside, I can actually understand where Darrin is coming from here.

Oh, we all get it and can relate. It's definitely a bad state of affairs. It's just not fraud.

Quote
In a sense, yes.  But I have the feeling Dashing Investor didn't go into this project with the intent to defraud.  I think he really meant to follow through.

But he got a lot more money than he was asking for.  What started out as a hobby suddenly became a business.  I have the strong sense that he just wasn't up to it, and couldn't handle it.  He quit because he wanted to so some fun kindergarten craft stuff, and suddenly found himself becoming a RPG publisher.

I mean, if this guy was a pro, he'd be long gone by now.  He's still making empty promises whenever the backers get too angry or somebody mentions the L word.*

* Lawyer.

The difference is that you paid money for a specific product, and never received it. Darrin was promised the opportunity to buy a specific product which the developers never ended up putting on the market. Thus no money for the specific product in question ever changed hands.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Darrin Kelley on March 17, 2017, 11:30:40 PM
Purchase of the prior close to $400 worth of products were based upon statements by said company that the product line would be completed.

This isn't just about the one book. But all of the books that were purchased prior.

And unless you are a consumer law attorney. You don't have any standing to assert any kind of opinion on whether this was fraud or not. So keep your legal opinions to yourself.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Tristram Evans on March 17, 2017, 11:51:49 PM
Its not fraud.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 18, 2017, 12:02:45 AM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;952327
And unless you are a consumer law attorney. You don't have any standing to assert any kind of opinion on whether this was fraud or not. So keep your legal opinions to yourself.

Au contraire, a basic understanding of contract law is a requisite part of a business degree.


Which... I have.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 18, 2017, 12:04:00 AM
Quote from: Tristram Evans;952330
Its not fraud.

It's getting pretty fucking twisted, isn't it?  It's starting to remind me of that "Freeman on the Land" bullshit, minus the gold fringe on the flag.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Tristram Evans on March 18, 2017, 12:08:41 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;952332
It's getting pretty fucking twisted, isn't it?  It's starting to remind me of that "Freeman on the Land" bullshit, minus the gold fringe on the flag.

Heh, one of my players is an RCMP officer and hes the one who first told me about the Freemen, he's had to deal with a few of them in BC.

But...yeah. This thread is the most bonkers thing I've encountered online in a while.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Nexus on March 18, 2017, 12:16:38 AM
Quote from: Tristram Evans;952334
Heh, one of my players is an RCMP officer and hes the one who first told me about the Freemen, he's had to deal with a few of them in BC.

But...yeah. This thread is the most bonkers thing I've encountered online in a while.

Hate to say I told you so but... :)
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Tristram Evans on March 18, 2017, 12:52:19 AM
Quote from: Nexus;952336
Hate to say I told you so but... :)

indeed. I'm almost tempted to look up the stuff on other boards to trace how far back this goes.

Though its at least a break from politics and social issues.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Black Vulmea on March 18, 2017, 02:02:26 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;952331
Which... I have.

Along with your Agrippa, I'm sure.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Omega on March 18, 2017, 02:16:27 AM
hah. You should see the occasional rants people make about promo material for board games and how it makes the game incomplete and thus ruined for them.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Voros on March 18, 2017, 03:34:52 AM
Sometimes it seems the internet was made for people to bitch about the inconsequential.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Omega on March 18, 2017, 03:48:31 AM
They bitch at cons and in game magazines too. And failing that fanzines.

Sometimes the complaint is valid. It can be really vexing to invest in a game. And then learn that a piece for the game is only in the hands of a priviliged few.

Its that nagging feeling of incompleteness that bugs some.

Possibly worse than a piece that was never made because it IS out there.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: AsenRG on March 18, 2017, 04:00:19 AM
Quote from: Tristram Evans;952316
Did the thread miss the part where the company actually said they were going to release the said info to fans for free? Because as far as I'm concerned thats not only above and beyond on the company's part, it render's Darrin's entire tantrum null and void.

I was wondering about the same thing. Though they said "standalone", not "free", which might be a systemless setting supplement, say.

Quote from: Voros;952374
Sometimes it seems the internet was made for people to bitch about the inconsequential.

No, but it was quickly adopted for that goal.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Tristram Evans on March 18, 2017, 04:18:04 AM
Quote from: Voros;952374
Sometimes it seems the internet was made for people to bitch about the inconsequential.

People need something to do in between the porn
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Nexus on March 18, 2017, 07:21:01 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;952331
Au contraire, a basic understanding of contract law is a requisite part of a business degree.


Which... I have.



Wait, Mr "Will not be silenced" is telling others they can't voice their opinions? *tsk*
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: AsenRG on March 18, 2017, 08:47:04 AM
Quote from: Nexus;952394
Wait, Mr "Will not be silenced" is telling others they can't voice their opinions? *tsk*

There's a difference between not being able to voice your opinion and your opinion contradicting the facts.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Nexus on March 18, 2017, 11:11:15 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;952403
There's a difference between not being able to voice your opinion and your opinion contradicting the facts.

Which it didn't. The situation being described isn't Fraud. But it contradicted what DK wants to true. So he told the person expressing it to shut up hypocritical given his incessant whining that he's being silenced by Sociopathic Internet Bullies.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: DavetheLost on March 18, 2017, 11:19:50 AM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;952327

And unless you are a consumer law attorney. You don't have any standing to assert any kind of opinion on whether this was fraud or not. So keep your legal opinions to yourself.


And you recieved your degree in consumer law when and where? Which bar are you a practicing member of?

If you are not a practicing consumer law attorney then, by your own standards, you don't have any standing to assert any kind of opinion on whether this was fraud or not.

But thanks for starting the show. This has been most entertaining.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Xanther on March 18, 2017, 11:34:27 AM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;952327
....

And unless you are a consumer law attorney. You don't have any standing to assert any kind of opinion on whether this was fraud or not. So keep your legal opinions to yourself.



Well you seem to be expressing a legal opinion and not just that accusing a company of illegal or tortious activity.   Of course it all depends where you are, where the company is and where the res of the malfeasance is.   Now if you wanted to educate yourself on the general principals of tort law you could look at https://www.ali.org/publications/show/torts/ .  You can often find it on-line or in libraries.  There are similar Restatements for criminal law I believe.   Lastly, if you are in the US I believe all states have a consumer affairs division in their attorney generals office who can help.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: crkrueger on March 18, 2017, 01:43:31 PM
I'll still waiting to see what was supposedly homophobic.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Willie the Duck on March 18, 2017, 02:01:00 PM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;952327
Purchase of the prior close to $400 worth of products were based upon statements by said company that the product line would be completed.

This isn't just about the one book. But all of the books that were purchased prior.

And unless you are a consumer law attorney. You don't have any standing to assert any kind of opinion on whether this was fraud or not. So keep your legal opinions to yourself.

1) No. I will not be doing that.

2)  As has been pointed out, this demand/request is in contradiction to your previous statements regarding people being silenced. We will not make exceptions specifically for you. Therefore, if you get to express your opinion, then so do those who disagree with your position.

3) I think we're all pretty certain that you also are not a consumer law attorney.

4) If we're going to start enforcing "standing" (a very misapplied term in this case, standing is right to sue) to voice an opinion, that requirement is decidedly first and foremost going to fall upon the individual accusing another entity of a crime.

5) If we're not here to discuss whether this is or isn't a case of fraud, what are we doing? Because we're certainly not here to discuss whether this is a case of fraud, but with the presupposition that we all agree ahead of time with your position. That would be pointless anyway, since it wouldn't help you hone your argument or help you get better at convincing others of your position. So, again, if not to hear from those who might disagree with you, what is the point of this thread?
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: AsenRG on March 18, 2017, 02:07:56 PM
Quote from: Nexus;952419
Which it didn't. The situation being described isn't Fraud. But it contradicted what DK wants to true. So he told the person expressing it to shut up hypocritical given his incessant whining that he's being silenced by Sociopathic Internet Bullies.

Oh, sorry, I thought "will not be silenced" to refer to Gronan, who pointed out that it isn't fraud.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Nexus on March 18, 2017, 05:47:59 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;952441
I'll still waiting to see what was supposedly homophobic.


So am I.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Christopher Brady on March 18, 2017, 06:35:07 PM
So I have to ask, and this may an unanswerable question, but...  Why does this matter?

Companies, no matter what they say, don't care about the individual.  So why are people getting attached to them?  You don't owe them anything.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Darrin Kelley on March 18, 2017, 06:45:44 PM
Quote from: Christopher Brady;952480
So I have to ask, and this may an unanswerable question, but...  Why does this matter?

Companies, no matter what they say, don't care about the individual.  So why are people getting attached to them?  You don't owe them anything.

Companies by law are not allowed to steal from or make misleading or misrepresentative statements to their customers.

Once they start doing that. They become criminals. Not legitimate businesses.

That is definitely something consumers should care about. Consumers have a basic right to know they will be treated fairly.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Tristram Evans on March 18, 2017, 07:16:19 PM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;952482
Companies by law are not allowed to steal from or make misleading or misrepresentative statements to their customers.

Once they start doing that. They become criminals. Not legitimate businesses.

But since Wildfire did neither, this is immaterial.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Christopher Brady on March 18, 2017, 07:22:31 PM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;952482
Companies by law are not allowed to steal from or make misleading or misrepresentative statements to their customers.

Once they start doing that. They become criminals. Not legitimate businesses.

That is definitely something consumers should care about. Consumers have a basic right to know they will be treated fairly.

Then sue them.  Don't drag it out here, it makes you look petty and small.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;952487
But since Wildfire did neither, this is immaterial.

That is irrelevant, that is a matter for a court to decide, not us.

Which leads back to my statement, why does this matter?
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Tristram Evans on March 18, 2017, 07:37:16 PM
Quote from: Christopher Brady;952488
That is irrelevant, that is a matter for a court to decide, not us.

lol, no it isn't. No court is ever going to hear about this insane drivel.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Nexus on March 18, 2017, 07:43:38 PM
Quote from: Christopher Brady;952488
That is irrelevant, that is a matter for a court to decide, not us.

As far as I can tell Wildfire did this: They announced their intended product line then later decided to bring out a new edition of the C-tech line before that initial line of products was completed. They took no money or pre orders for the supplement or made any other contractual obligations. So, no Fraud. The disappointed some of thei customers but they didn't steal from them. A product line announcement is not a contract. By posting in this thread, the OP opened the matter up for discussion so he should piss and moan because people aren't agreeing with him. True, if he should take it to court what we think doesn't matter.

But he did ask, even if only implicitly.

If Darrin Kelley is deeply convinced that he has been legally wronged, doesn't want to hear otherwise or take any suggestions that don't go along with his notions then you're right to ask what the Hell is the point to this thread?
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: DavetheLost on March 18, 2017, 08:14:31 PM
If Darrin Kelly is convinced that he has actually been the victim of the crime of fraud he shouod be pusuing it in court, not on small internet forums.

Otherwise, most of us have said CthulhuTech moving to a new edition before the product line for the old edition was completed sucks, but shit happens. Just sucking doesn't make it criminal.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Ras Algethi on March 18, 2017, 09:21:56 PM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;952327

And unless you are a consumer law attorney. You don't have any standing to assert any kind of opinion on whether this was fraud or not. So keep your legal opinions to yourself.


Are you a consumer law attorney?
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Spinachcat on March 19, 2017, 03:52:39 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;952204
Try reading the Microsoft Windows license sometime.


But first Save vs. D8 SAN loss!!


Quote from: noman;952310
It's all cool.  Just surges of chaos in in the madness of human life.


Very true.

We all have to pick our battles.

Kickstarter has been a mixed blessing. I've been lucky overall, but I've seen many people treat it as a pre-order vs. a risky gamble and that's where the trouble starts.

I consider Kickstarter a really great Vegas slot machine. I will throw money at it for fun, but only money I'm good with losing.


Quote from: Darrin Kelley;952327
Purchase of the prior close to $400 worth of products were based upon statements by said company that the product line would be completed.


Statements are not contracts.

They had no obligation to finish the game line.

It's like TV series that gets cancelled before they conclude.


Quote from: Darrin Kelley;952482
Companies by law are not allowed to steal from or make misleading or misrepresentative statements to their customers.

Once they start doing that. They become criminals. Not legitimate businesses.

That is definitely something consumers should care about. Consumers have a basic right to know they will be treated fairly.


This sounds good in theory, but it has no basis in the law.

Consumer rights are easy to research. My grandparents were badly defrauded and I fought the situation for years - attorneys, rights groups, non-profit advocacy, discussions with lawmakers, etc. Everyone agreed it was fraud dead to rights, but EVEN THEN it was impossible to sue. The companies we were up against were willing to spend many millions to either stomp our case or ensure it would be tied up in courts forever.

It was a hard and nasty lesson.


Quote from: Ras Algethi;952500
Are you a consumer law attorney?


I'm not, but I play one on TV!
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Dirk Remmecke on March 19, 2017, 05:41:18 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;952523
It's like TV series that gets cancelled before they conclude.


Or a multi volume fantasy novel series that leaves its readers hanging for decades...
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: jeff37923 on March 19, 2017, 07:48:34 AM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;939843
I believe I have a right to stand up and cry foul at bad game company behavior. And even more so to recommend that people not buy said company's products because of it. I believe it is my right as a consumer to point that out.

The incident happened almost two years ago: Wildfire. The company that produced Cthulhutech had been promising a supplement to their game for a couple of years. This supplement detailed the last third, and most important of the main antagonists of the game. In essence, the game was incomplete without it. And a whole community was patiently waiting for it. So they could actually use the game to its full capacity.

Two years passed. The Wildfire announced that instead of finishing said supplement. That they would instead produce a 2nd Edition of the game instead. Leaving all of the people who had bought the first edition and all of its supplements with an incomplete product line.

This means that the people who spent hundreds of dollars on the first edition products would be left with an effectively unuseable game. While being expected to pony up hundreds of dollars all over again for a game the company never truly delivered on in the first place.

I found the whole thing unacceptable.

When I first posted about this in another rather infamous forum. I got responses attacking me for daring to to point this out. Accusing me of acting "entitled". Even some moderators joined in the trolling and eventually shut my thread down. Straight up villifying me for speaking out about it in the first place.

I sold off my Cthulhutech books afterward at a pretty steep loss. Because I was utterly disgusted with the company. I didn't even want the products in my home at that point. I was done.


If you live in the United States and believe that you have a strong case and are willing to spend the hundred dollars or so filing fee, you can have the case done in Small Claims Court where you and a representative of the company that wronged you may be heard and the decision made by a judge. You may win or you may lose, but at least you will then have closure.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Omega on March 19, 2017, 09:43:31 AM
Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;952557
Or a multi volume fantasy novel series that leaves its readers hanging for decades...

Or forever. That happens a bit too often for my liking.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Charon's Little Helper on March 19, 2017, 10:49:32 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;952523
Kickstarter has been a mixed blessing. I've been lucky overall, but I've seen many people treat it as a pre-order vs. a risky gamble and that's where the trouble starts.

I consider Kickstarter a really great Vegas slot machine. I will throw money at it for fun, but only money I'm good with losing.


I just only use Kickstarter when the product is 95% done already (and demonstratively so) and/or when they already have a successful track record.  (The more successful their record, the lower from 95% I'm willing to risk.)

Really - at this point I think there are a lot of people like me who won't back without it being pretty obvious it's gonna be done relatively soon.  (I still think that Star Citizen is probably going to be cool someday - but it's been about 4 years now. >.<)
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Simlasa on March 19, 2017, 01:31:07 PM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;952482
Companies by law are not allowed to steal from or make misleading or misrepresentative statements to their customers.

Once they start doing that. They become criminals. Not legitimate businesses.
That's why Chaosium had to FINALLY come out with Cthulhu Pulp... they were afraid their asses were going to get hauled into court! (not to mention some of the ACTUAL fraud that might have been going on elsewhere...).
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Nexus on March 19, 2017, 01:46:31 PM
Quote from: Simlasa;952620
That's why Chaosium had to FINALLY come out with Cthulhu Pulp... they were afraid their asses were going to get hauled into court! (not to mention some of the ACTUAL fraud that might have been going on elsewhere...).

Please, go on?
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Tristram Evans on March 19, 2017, 02:02:24 PM
Quote from: jeff37923;952573
If you live in the United States and believe that you have a strong case and are willing to spend the hundred dollars or so filing fee, you can have the case done in Small Claims Court where you and a representative of the company that wronged you may be heard and the decision made by a judge. You may win or you may lose, but at least you will then have closure.

Yes, and please pass on a transcription of the event. Preferably with pictures of the people's faces as you explain your "case."
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Simlasa on March 19, 2017, 02:10:38 PM
Quote from: Nexus;952624
Please, go on?
About Cthulhu Pulp? Promised for years as a coming attraction? Long enough that it became a joke.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Bedrockbrendan on March 19, 2017, 02:43:32 PM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;952327
Purchase of the prior close to $400 worth of products were based upon statements by said company that the product line would be completed.


This seems a bit frivolous to me. I am no lawyer but I really don't think this quite rises to the level of fraud. I mean there is never any assurance that a line is going to be completed. I've started novels that were supposed to be ongoing series that never finished. I am sure some people went to go see the Golden Compass in the theater expecting a sequel. There are still a few people angry that the Never Ending Story had an ending.

I certainly understand the complaint. I felt a bit annoyed when WoTC released 3.5 after I had invested in all the 3E books for example. I think this sort of thing can be annoying. But to claim you are the victim of a crime seems hysterical. It might be a boneheaded move on the part of the company. That's about it.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Darrin Kelley on March 19, 2017, 02:45:29 PM
Quote from: Simlasa;952632
About Cthulhu Pulp? Promised for years as a coming attraction? Long enough that it became a joke.

Pulp Cthulhu. Actually, it had been so long I had forgotten about that one.

If they had gotten sued for it. Well it certainly would have put some serious fear into other RPG publishers. And possibly convinced them to get their acts together.

The problem is: That the misbehavior by these companies has been going on for so long that. They have come to believe they are entitled to misbehave.

That's where the entitlement in this whole issue comes from. From the companies.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Nexus on March 19, 2017, 02:47:57 PM
Quote from: Simlasa;952632
About Cthulhu Pulp? Promised for years as a coming attraction? Long enough that it became a joke.


Was there actually a threat of legal action over it?
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Christopher Brady on March 19, 2017, 02:48:17 PM
Quote from: Tristram Evans;952490
lol, no it isn't. No court is ever going to hear about this insane drivel.

You made a statement of fact on a legal matter, which is not up to us to decide about.  And again, that's not up to us to decide if his statements would hold up in a court of law.  In fact, there's been a case against as video game critic that is pretty much the same thing, AND they WERE heard in court.  Of course, they lost, because their case had no merit, but a court DID listen to it.

Again, it's not up to us to decide whether or not Mr. Kelley has a case, it's up to a judge.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;952557
Or a multi volume fantasy novel series that leaves its readers hanging for decades...

Still bitter about Robert Jordan?  Or are you talking Jim Butcher or George Martin?
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Darrin Kelley on March 19, 2017, 02:53:22 PM
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;952639
I certainly understand the complaint. I felt a bit annoyed when WoTC released 3.5 after I had invested in all the 3E books for example. I think this sort of thing can be annoying. But to claim you are the victim of a crime seems hysterical. It might be a boneheaded move on the part of the company. That's about it.

Brendan. I can appreciate your point of view.

But you are not trying to beat me over the head with it. You are not insisting I change my view to match yours. You are not engaging in the tactics others in this thread have.

And I'm very greatful for that.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Tristram Evans on March 19, 2017, 02:58:33 PM
Quote from: Christopher Brady;952643
You made a statement of fact on a legal matter, which is not up to us to decide about.

Declaring it a "legal matter" is a preposterous assertion.

And thats not just my decision, it's...
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Simlasa on March 19, 2017, 03:24:44 PM
Quote from: Nexus;952642
Was there actually a threat of legal action over it?
Not that I know of... I was just raising it as one of the MANY examples of gaming products that were advertised as 'coming soon'... that didn't.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;952640
If they had gotten sued for it. Well it certainly would have put some serious fear into other RPG publishers. And possibly convinced them to get their acts together.
No... it would have made the people suing over it look like idiots.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Darrin Kelley on March 19, 2017, 03:41:02 PM
Quote from: Simlasa;952652
No... it would have made the people suing over it look like idiots.


There are plenty of cases where real idiots have sued big companies for things that seemed a lot more ludicrous.

The case of someone dropping hot coffee they bought from McDonalds in their own lap? They sued McDonalds and won.

Yes. That person may look like an idiot to the rest of us. But the cold hard cash took away any reason for them to care about what anyone else would think.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Ras Algethi on March 19, 2017, 03:51:57 PM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;952640
Pulp Cthulhu. Actually, it had been so long I had forgotten about that one.

If they had gotten sued for it. Well it certainly would have put some serious fear into other RPG publishers. And possibly convinced them to get their acts together.

The problem is: That the misbehavior by these companies has been going on for so long that. They have come to believe they are entitled to misbehave.

That's where the entitlement in this whole issue comes from. From the companies.

You actually think you can sue a company to offer a product? You don't have a right to a product or service you've never actually paid for....
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Ras Algethi on March 19, 2017, 03:55:30 PM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;952656
There are plenty of cases where real idiots have sued big companies for things that seemed a lot more ludicrous.

The case of someone dropping hot coffee they bought from McDonalds in their own lap? They sued McDonalds and won.

Yes. That person may look like an idiot to the rest of us. But the cold hard cash took away any reason for them to care about what anyone else would think.

If you're so confident, why are you talking to us and not a lawyer?
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Simlasa on March 19, 2017, 04:07:38 PM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;952656
The case of someone dropping hot coffee they bought from McDonalds in their own lap? They sued McDonalds and won.
IIRC that nonsense was eventually overturned.
I've sat on juries for civil suits, they often seem to think they're judges at an awards show... I remember one woman saying, "Well, I think she should get something since she brought the case to court!"
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 19, 2017, 04:34:16 PM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;952645
You are not insisting I change my view to match yours.

We're not trying to change your opinion, we're telling you you are factually wrong.

Surely you understand the difference?
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Darrin Kelley on March 19, 2017, 04:36:18 PM
Could someone please lock this thread? I think it has outlived its purpose.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Charon's Little Helper on March 19, 2017, 05:35:50 PM
Quote from: Simlasa;952666
IIRC that nonsense was eventually overturned.

I know that the award was dropped from the ridiculous $3 million that the jury initially awarded - but I thought that she still got a couple hundred thousand?  (Frankly - punitive damage in general is moronic.  It's bypassing the entire 'beyond a reasonable doubt' part of criminal court to punish with only more than 50%.)
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: DavetheLost on March 19, 2017, 05:55:24 PM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;952656
There are plenty of cases where real idiots have sued big companies for things that seemed a lot more ludicrous.

The case of someone dropping hot coffee they bought from McDonalds in their own lap? They sued McDonalds and won.

Yes. That person may look like an idiot to the rest of us. But the cold hard cash took away any reason for them to care about what anyone else would think.


In the McDonalds coffee case the issue at hand was whether or not McDonalds had sold coffee at dangerously hot temperatures without sufficient warnings that it was so. Not that "normally" hot coffee had been hot, but that the coffee had been excessively hot.

It is not actually as ludicrous a case as it has been made out to be.

It also seems a lot less ludicrous than suing an RPG company because they didn't publish a book you wanted.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: crkrueger on March 19, 2017, 05:58:40 PM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;952672
Could someone please lock this thread? I think it has outlived its purpose.


Guess that's a "No" on having anything at all to back up the homophobic charge then.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Tristram Evans on March 19, 2017, 06:27:11 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;952692
Guess that's a "No" on having anything at all to back up the homophobic charge then.

(https://s3.amazonaws.com/lowres.jantoo.com/medical-plea-sentences-judge-court-insane-07635769_low.jpg)
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Tristram Evans on March 19, 2017, 06:59:44 PM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;952656
There are plenty of cases where real idiots have sued big companies for things that seemed a lot more ludicrous.

are you calling yourself an idiot?

Quote
The case of someone dropping hot coffee they bought from McDonalds in their own lap? They sued McDonalds and won.

The 79 year old woman who sustained 3rd degree burns over 16% of her body, and had to have skin grafts and pay $10k in medical fees?

Quote
Yes. That person may look like an idiot to the rest of us. But the cold hard cash took away any reason for them to care about what anyone else would think.

Its still sounds like your calling yourself an idiot. And then reinforcing that by comparing a small independent game company to a multi-national corporation.

I really, really hope you don't walk away from this thread with the idea that you have any sort of legal case against Wildfire. You don't. Talking to a lawyer would not only be throwing away your money to hear the same rebuttal, it would primarily give him something to tell his friends and they would laugh about for quite some time.

Wildfire is releasing the info you want. And it is going to be backwards compatible. They've stated both of those things, and not only that, you already knew that when you started this thread, because it was brought up in the same thread you started on RPGnet well before this one. So what was the purpose of this thread? Because at this point it seems like it was an incredibly disingenuous attempt to  either drum up ill feelings towards Wildfire or garner pity for your pathetic first of the first world problems.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Nexus on March 19, 2017, 07:29:17 PM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;952672
Could someone please lock this thread? I think it has outlived its purpose.

What exactly was its purpose?
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 19, 2017, 07:55:52 PM
Quote from: Tristram Evans;952705
The 79 year old woman who sustained 3rd degree burns over 16% of her body, and had to have skin grafts and pay $10k in medical fees?


And who asked for help, and the manager threw a towel at her.  (My brother had to review the case.  The McDonald's manager was an ass.)
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Spinachcat on March 19, 2017, 11:27:03 PM
Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;952557
Or a multi volume fantasy novel series that leaves its readers hanging for decades...


Referring to any specific one?

I am still pissed REH whacked himself. We could have had more Conan!!


Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;952590
I just only use Kickstarter when the product is 95% done already (and demonstratively so) and/or when they already have a successful track record.


Understandable, but unfortunate.

Kickstarter's bad apples have made it harder for new creators to get start-up funds.


Quote from: BedrockBrendan;952639
I am sure some people went to go see the Golden Compass in the theater expecting a sequel.


The producer, the director, the cast...


Quote from: BedrockBrendan;952639
There are still a few people angry that the Never Ending Story had an ending.


Hey bub, of course we're angry, its right there in the title!!


Quote from: BedrockBrendan;952639
I felt a bit annoyed when WoTC released 3.5 after I had invested in all the 3E books for example.


That was a screw job sucker punch.


Quote from: Darrin Kelley;952656
The case of someone dropping hot coffee they bought from McDonalds in their own lap? They sued McDonalds and won.


I highly suggest reading up on that case.

The media has spun it far from its facts.


Quote from: Ras Algethi;952662
If you're so confident, why are you talking to us and not a lawyer?


Because we haven't sent him a bill for our time!


Quote from: Tristram Evans;952705
So what was the purpose of this thread?


I learned that Cthulutech 2e is coming!
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Justin Alexander on March 19, 2017, 11:59:49 PM
Quote from: Simlasa;952666
IIRC that nonsense was eventually overturned.


It was not.

And for good reason: During discovery for the trial it was discovered that McDonald's had a corporate policy for the temperature at which their coffee had to be kept which (a) could cause third-degree burns in 2-7 seconds; (b) was substantially hotter than the temperature other businesses kept their coffee at; (3) McDonald's knew to be unsafe (based on internal communications) but deliberately chose not to correct; and (4) had resulted in McDonald's settling dozens of previous claims in order to keep them out of court. Then, during the trial, McDonald's quality control manager, Christopher Appleton, testified that the company's own research showed the coffee would burn the mouth and throat if consumed when served (i.e., it was dangerous even if used exactly as intended. He then went on to testify that the number of injuries was not sufficient to change corporate policy (which the internal communications indicated was because they had calculated the cost of settling these cases was cheap enough).

So you basically had a corporation that had made the decision that settling out of court was cheaper than fixing a major liability issue. But then, for some nonsensical reason, decided to not settle this case and take it to court instead. The idiot in this case was not the woman who had massive burns on her body and just wanted her medical bills paid: It was the Machiavellian corporation whose legal department apparently had an aneurysm.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: DavetheLost on March 20, 2017, 07:55:26 AM
Quote from: Nexus;952716
What exactly was its purpose?


It's purpose was to make us all feel good that we hadn't chucked our $400 behind a fatally incomplete game that is now going to a new edition with new rules, forcing us to rebuy all the book if we want to keep playing.  

Oh, wait, is that D&D, or CoC, or WHFRP, or Deadlands, or Tekumel, or ... ?
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Omega on March 20, 2017, 09:01:42 AM
Quote from: DavetheLost;952826
It's purpose was to make us all feel good that we hadn't chucked our $400 behind a fatally incomplete game that is now going to a new edition with new rules, forcing us to rebuy all the book if we want to keep playing.  

Oh, wait, is that D&D, or CoC, or WHFRP, or Deadlands, or Tekumel, or ... ?

D&Ds never had that problem though. Core games complete and they tended to get the basics out before the next and oft cram in a bunch of stuff just because. Least pre 3e and Im pretty sure 3 e was complete too.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Willie the Duck on March 20, 2017, 09:27:42 AM
The McDonald's hot coffee case (http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cur78.htm) is simply not a good case for justification one's opinions regarding frivolous lawsuit. It was a legitimate lawsuit only notable because the jury decided to throw on a very large punitive amount (that was immediately reduced) to the large corporation found to be in the wrong. It would be a genuine non-issue if it hadn't happened right in the first big expansion of 24 hour cable news.

Since it's fairly obvious that no new information is forthcoming, the thread clearly didn't have a solid purpose to begin with, and most of the arguments have been made, I propose a new question -- given that there are (at least one) individuals out there like the OP who 1) like the CT game world, and the 1st edition rules, and 2) have been put off of Wildfire by the delay in this 1st edition product and its eventual cancellation, and the eventual rolling of the fluff information from the proposed product into the 2nd edition book, is something Wildfire could have done better to have turned this type of individual into a glad customer, instead of vocal detractor? They say 1 negative review is worth 10 positive, so something like this could be in the company's interest to make an effort towards. Not that I suspect it's relevant in this specific case. OP's position seems quite solidified. But for other companies out there, is there a lesson to take away from this? Basically I'm asking if there's anything positive we can salvage from this dumpster fire?
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Simlasa on March 20, 2017, 09:31:58 AM
Quote from: Justin Alexander;952779
It was not.
Yeah, I shouldn't have used 'overturned'. I meant that the original award had been reduced... but I should have double-checked the facts.
Not that any of it ranks next to the extreme pain and suffering DK has endured over that unpublished C-Tech book.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: crkrueger on March 20, 2017, 10:47:08 AM
It's a shame that the award was reduced.  Massive monetary penalties are really the only deterrent to corporate malfeasance.  If the reason they are hurting or even killing people is because it's cheaper than fixing things so that they don't hurt or kill people, you either need to...
1. Start sending humans to jail.
2. Let the juries make it not cheaper by slapping them with a penalty that actually hurts.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Xanther on March 20, 2017, 11:04:25 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;952856
It's a shame that the award was reduced.  Massive monetary penalties are really the only deterrent to corporate malfeasance.  If the reason they are hurting or even killing people is because it's cheaper than fixing things so that they don't hurt or kill people, you either need to...
1. Start sending humans to jail.
2. Let the juries make it not cheaper by slapping them with a penalty that actually hurts.

Yep, and from the information posted it looks like that was exactly the calculation, it's cheaper to give the occasional person third degree burns and throw a few minutes (or less) of our profits at them than to lower the temperature on the coffee.  I mean they are "just" third degree burns, permanent nerve damage, tissue destruction and scarring, let alone lucky to survive if you get them over enough of your body.   If you've never had any injury experience or training just look them up, I suggest images.  

After all, a corporation is a person to who shouldn't have to follow any code of conduct besides maximizing executive compensation (I mean shareholder value).  What's a few casualties along the way, you have to break a few eggs to increase the coffee profit margin by a few percent.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Charon's Little Helper on March 20, 2017, 11:07:36 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;952856
It's a shame that the award was reduced.  Massive monetary penalties are really the only deterrent to corporate malfeasance.  If the reason they are hurting or even killing people is because it's cheaper than fixing things so that they don't hurt or kill people, you either need to...
1. Start sending humans to jail.
2. Let the juries make it not cheaper by slapping them with a penalty that actually hurts.

If you want to fine them - they should be fined through the criminal justice system.

Punitive damages are a moronic way to do it - and they skirt the core aspect of the criminal justice system "beyond a reasonable doubt".

Plus - they just become a lottery win for the plaintiff - because punitive damagers are inherently above and beyond any actual damages that the plaintiff received.  (I do know of one cancer insurance case where the punitive damages went to cancer research - but that was the exception to the rule.)
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Nexus on March 20, 2017, 11:27:18 AM
Quote from: Simlasa;952652
Not that I know of... I was just raising it as one of the MANY examples of gaming products that were advertised as 'coming soon'... that didn't.


Oh. :o

I knew that.

I was... testing you. That's it, yeah. Testing

<.<

>.>

That's the ticket.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Spike on March 20, 2017, 11:28:55 AM
Heck, I actually bought another Cthulutech book (PDF) thanks to this thread. I'd damn near forgotten the game existed, partly because my local Brick-and-Mortar store sucks caramel covered donkey balls. Seriously, its like they never actually buy any new stock until the shit that hasn't sold in years... sells.  If you don't like Pathfinder you are SOL, my friend.  I had NO IDEA how many CT books had been released.

Of course I hate only having PDF books, and I don't think I'll ever play, much less run, this game again, so why did I buy it?  I'll tell you why: Because Darrin Kelly is that much of a whiny little bitch that I almost felt compelled (By the Power of Whiny Internet Bitches I compel Thee!!!!)  to toss a little money at Wildfire.  

God, I hope this is all a clever marketing ploy by Wildfire. I'd love to have been taken in by a mad supervillian game publisher!
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Willie the Duck on March 20, 2017, 11:42:18 AM
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;952861
If you want to fine them - they should be fined through the criminal justice system.

Punitive damages are a moronic way to do it - and they skirt the core aspect of the criminal justice system "beyond a reasonable doubt".

Plus - they just become a lottery win for the plaintiff - because punitive damagers are inherently above and beyond any actual damages that the plaintiff received.  (I do know of one cancer insurance case where the punitive damages went to cancer research - but that was the exception to the rule.)

Yes, agreed. If one were building a judicial system from the ground up, the punitive reward system to discourage companies from neglecting the safety of their customers (or society at large) should probably not be tied to civil cases. Changing that (in the U.S., where the case we are discussing took place) would require significant rebuilding of the legal system, and is unlikely to happen. Until that comes to pass, it would be nice if the large corporations might actually receive punishments that were sufficient to deter bad behavior. Unlikely to happen.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Baulderstone on March 20, 2017, 12:07:02 PM
Quote from: Willie the Duck;952873
Yes, agreed. If one were building a judicial system from the ground up, the punitive reward system to discourage companies from neglecting the safety of their customers (or society at large) should probably not be tied to civil cases. Changing that (in the U.S., where the case we are discussing took place) would require significant rebuilding of the legal system, and is unlikely to happen. Until that comes to pass, it would be nice if the large corporations might actually receive punishments that were sufficient to deter bad behavior. Unlikely to happen.

Your run into the whole "job creator" narrative when you try to place fines that will actually hurt a company in place. The management will plead that you need to think of all the poor workers at the bottom that will be downsized so they can both pay the fine and keep their annual bonuses.

We end result is that fines are calculated to have as little economic effect as possible on a company, meaning they have no real effect at all.

I think there simply needs to be more aggressive laws to target individuals in a company with personal charges in addition to fines. How are the people that made a decision to burn customers not guilty of calculated random battery? It was a predicted outcome.

Corporate liability protection is only meant to ensure your personal assets aren't seized to cover corporate debts. It's not meant to be some kind of diplomatic immunity that protect you from prosecution. The idea that we can know specific individuals planned to seriously burn people to make more money and not personally charge them is crazy.

I guess it's still not as crazy as how this case was somehow twisted by the media into a story about how McDonalds was victimized.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: DavetheLost on March 20, 2017, 12:09:57 PM
Having been awarded damages in a civil suit once, there is also the problem that often such damages are difficult if not impossible to actually collect. So, the big fat evil coporation may lose the suit, but still escape without taking a significant monetary hit. Or a hit to their insurance only.

I am going to guess that Wildfire, being a small RPG company, do not actually have the monetary assets to make it worth purusing them in court. Even a win would be unlikely to return enough to cover the cost of litigation.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Black Vulmea on March 20, 2017, 01:24:22 PM
Quote from: Spike;952871
. . . o why did I buy it?  I'll tell you why: Because Darrin Kelly is that much of a whiny little bitch that I almost felt compelled (By the Power of Whiny Internet Bitches I compel Thee!!!!)  to toss a little money at Wildfire.

Chapeau, mate. I bow before your superior fuck-you-fu.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: ThatChrisGuy on March 20, 2017, 01:44:23 PM
Quote from: Spike;952871
Heck, I actually bought another Cthulutech book (PDF) thanks to this thread. I'd damn near forgotten the game existed, partly because my local Brick-and-Mortar store sucks caramel covered donkey balls. Seriously, its like they never actually buy any new stock until the shit that hasn't sold in years... sells.  If you don't like Pathfinder you are SOL, my friend.  I had NO IDEA how many CT books had been released.

Of course I hate only having PDF books, and I don't think I'll ever play, much less run, this game again, so why did I buy it?  I'll tell you why: Because Darrin Kelly is that much of a whiny little bitch that I almost felt compelled (By the Power of Whiny Internet Bitches I compel Thee!!!!)  to toss a little money at Wildfire.  

God, I hope this is all a clever marketing ploy by Wildfire. I'd love to have been taken in by a mad supervillian game publisher!

Christ, this thread has me consider buying a Chthulutech book and from what I've seen of the system and setting I'd rather play tiddlywinks.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Charon's Little Helper on March 20, 2017, 01:55:27 PM
Quote from: ThatChrisGuy;952888
Christ, this thread has me consider buying a Chthulutech book and from what I've seen of the system and setting I'd rather play tiddlywinks.

The setting is interesting (though parts of it aren't totally internally consistent) - but the system was a hot mess.  Probably why they wanted to come out with 2e.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Matt on March 20, 2017, 04:12:24 PM
This thread is A+ quality entertainment. Keep it coming.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: crkrueger on March 20, 2017, 05:09:11 PM
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;952861
If you want to fine them - they should be fined through the criminal justice system.

Punitive damages are a moronic way to do it - and they skirt the core aspect of the criminal justice system "beyond a reasonable doubt".

Plus - they just become a lottery win for the plaintiff - because punitive damagers are inherently above and beyond any actual damages that the plaintiff received.  (I do know of one cancer insurance case where the punitive damages went to cancer research - but that was the exception to the rule.)


Yeah...should being the operative term.  But since the people who make decisions and carry out actions at corporations hardly ever go to jail for anything they do...the only way to deter them is to force them to factor in the cost of a vindictive jury.  It becomes a lottery win for the plaintiff, yeah, who cares?  Have a corporation bankrupted and all the people involved go to jail for assault/murder/depraved indifference, fraud, and throw them into GenPop at Riker's or San Quentin and you might not have shit like this happen every week.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: AsenRG on March 20, 2017, 05:15:23 PM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;952640
Pulp Cthulhu. Actually, it had been so long I had forgotten about that one.

If they had gotten sued for it. Well it certainly would have put some serious fear into other RPG publishers. And possibly convinced them to get their acts together.

The problem is: That the misbehavior by these companies has been going on for so long that. They have come to believe they are entitled to misbehave.

That's where the entitlement in this whole issue comes from. From the companies.

That's assuming you have a shot at winning. What happens when, and notice I'm not saying if, you lose:)?

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;952656
There are plenty of cases where real idiots have sued big companies for things that seemed a lot more ludicrous.

The case of someone dropping hot coffee they bought from McDonalds in their own lap? They sued McDonalds and won.

Yes. That person may look like an idiot to the rest of us. But the cold hard cash took away any reason for them to care about what anyone else would think.

So, the specifics of the case aside, is your goal to sue Wildfire and rely on a miscarriage of justice to win?
Because I am a lawyer by education, if not by trade, and I can tell you you have a snowball in hell's chance of winning in any law system between here and Saudi Arabia (I rate the USA as being in the middle, BTW:D).
 
Quote from: Spinachcat;952770
Referring to any specific one?

I am still pissed REH whacked himself. We could have had more Conan!!

Me and you both, man:D!

Quote from: Spinachcat;952770

Because we haven't sent him a bill for our time!

You haven't, maybe...
Also: yet.
Quote from: ThatChrisGuy;952888
Christ, this thread has me consider buying a Chthulutech book and from what I've seen of the system and setting I'd rather play tiddlywinks.

Same here, but then I looked at Far Future's site and Design Mechanism's site, and the Spellbound Kingdoms' site, and decided I can spend the money better;)!
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Omega on March 20, 2017, 08:34:25 PM
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;952891
The setting is interesting (though parts of it aren't totally internally consistent) - but the system was a hot mess.  Probably why they wanted to come out with 2e.

I had a glance at it when it first came out and was unimpressed. The organization and explanation of the rules felt oddly disjointed in places. The setting though was more interesting than Delta Green, which I still dont like.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Kyle Aaron on March 20, 2017, 09:40:31 PM
Quote from: Willie the Duck;952873
Yes, agreed. If one were building a judicial system from the ground up, the punitive reward system to discourage companies from neglecting the safety of their customers (or society at large) should probably not be tied to civil cases. Changing that (in the U.S., where the case we are discussing took place) would require significant rebuilding of the legal system, and is unlikely to happen.
Not necessarily. If they are legal persons, well legal persons can be imprisoned or executed. Company put under administration or broken up and sold off.

A few years back here in Victoria we came close to getting a corporate manslaughter bill passed, so that directors, supervisors etc would be held criminally responsible for deaths of employees and others. They managed to weasel out of it though.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Justin Alexander on March 21, 2017, 12:40:53 AM
Quote from: Simlasa;952847
Not that any of it ranks next to the extreme pain and suffering DK has endured over that unpublished C-Tech book.


His genitals will never recover.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: AsenRG on March 21, 2017, 04:07:31 AM
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;952991
A few years back here in Victoria we came close to getting a corporate manslaughter bill passed, so that directors, supervisors etc would be held criminally responsible for deaths of employees and others. They managed to weasel out of it though.

Too bad you didn't make it:)!
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Omega on March 21, 2017, 07:18:17 AM
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;952991
Not necessarily. If they are legal persons, well legal persons can be imprisoned or executed. Company put under administration or broken up and sold off.

A few years back here in Victoria we came close to getting a corporate manslaughter bill passed, so that directors, supervisors etc would be held criminally responsible for deaths of employees and others. They managed to weasel out of it though.

Id love to see ASE and the teamsters union taken down for what they did to us back in the 90s.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Willie the Duck on March 21, 2017, 07:52:53 AM
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;952991
Not necessarily. If they are legal persons, well legal persons can be imprisoned or executed. Company put under administration or broken up and sold off.

A few years back here in Victoria we came close to getting a corporate manslaughter bill passed, so that directors, supervisors etc would be held criminally responsible for deaths of employees and others. They managed to weasel out of it though.

I'm not suggesting otherwise (or at least I hope I wasn't). However, until that bill passes, I'd hope that jury-awarded punitive damages stay on the books where they are, even if it is an odd (and often ineffective) way to disincentivize corporate malfeasance. My point is sometimes you work with the legal framework you have, hiccups and all, because the perfect one is not going to happen.
Title: When a game company treats its customers badly.
Post by: Charon's Little Helper on March 21, 2017, 09:08:48 AM
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;952991
Not necessarily. If they are legal persons, well legal persons can be imprisoned or executed. Company put under administration or broken up and sold off.

A few years back here in Victoria we came close to getting a corporate manslaughter bill passed, so that directors, supervisors etc would be held criminally responsible for deaths of employees and others. They managed to weasel out of it though.


That would be moronic.

As horrible as it sounds - at a certain point companies HAVE to do cost benefit analysis as it pertains to potential injuries.

Example: Cars could be built like tanks so that virtually no one gets hurt in car accidents, and doing so would prevent tens of thousands of deaths per year.  But if they did, they'd get about 3 miles per gallon, and they'd be so expensive that virtually no one could afford them.

That is NOT to say that McD wasn't wrong in this case (though the $3m initial cost was ridiculous) but there are times when similar logic is a necessity.

There is no way that a jury who are angry about a death should be able to throw an exec in prison for making such a judgment call.