This is a thread where I attempt to identify what exactly is so good about the Palladium system, and why some people (like me) keep on trying to get the unworkable mess to work.
1) Classes
One of the strengths of Palladium products is that they have fairly strong, memorable, and appealling character archetypes. This is important for those people who don't want to come up with a character idea from whole cloth (as with more universal games like Hero and GURPS). Although it has changed in recent years, there used to be a good deal of customization to the classes which would allow each one to have some mechanical quirks (Nowadays the rules tend to force each character of a class to not have much variation from another).
2) Combat System
At first glance, Palladium's combat system seems to be very simulationistic. Combat is not as heavily abstracted, and is instead accounted for blow by blow. Characters must actually actively defend. All of this is a pretty big deal for those moving to the game from older editions of D&D, as it addresses the issues many people have with that other game's combat system. It doesn't hurt that damages are generally higher in Palladium and all characters have multiple attacks, adding to a "feel good" element of the combat system.
3) Familiarity
For players of older editions of D&D, Palladium is a very friendly environment. Attributes are rolled with 3d6. Non-Combat abilities are resolved by percentile roll. Combat is d20 based. There are still Hit Points which increase by level. It provides a common base for them to immediately begin assimilating the game.
4) Tinkerability
Many rules in Palladium interlock for different results. The system is ultimately modular, and pieces and parts are fun to sort around and see how they work together. For one thing, there are many ways during character creation to manipulate a character's stats so as to make them more effective. The system rewards knowledge of the rules (such as they are) and mastery. It's a puzzle to be unraveled.
5) Cheap and Meaty
For most of its existence, Palladiumbooks has produced books which tend to be about $5 cheaper than an equivalent product from another publisher. Plus, they tend to be packed much more densely with stats, mechanics, OCCs, and other very rules-tied things than other products. This results in a greater value to the gamer and a greater utility at the game table.
It's fucking metal, that's why.
And my Rifts group has a goblin piloting a giant stolen German robot.
Quote from: Zachary The FirstIt's fucking metal, that's why.
And my Rifts group has a goblin piloting a giant stolen German robot.
6) The Gonzo Factor
Palladium products are known for their "kitchen sink" mentality and their melding of incongruous gaming elements. Widely disparate and "wacky" concepts are superficially encouraged.
The Characters made in Rifts kickass.
thats all that needs to be said. I have yet to have a Rifts character that didn't rock.
Quote from: McrowThe Characters made in Rifts kickass.
thats all that needs to be said. I have yet to have a Rifts character that didn't rock.
I'll take that as a confirmation and endorsement of point #1.
Quote from: GabrielI'll take that as a confirmation and endorsement of point #1.
yup.:D
Quote from: McrowThe Characters made in Rifts kickass.
thats all that needs to be said. I have yet to have a Rifts character that didn't rock.
Something for everybody.
My current Rifts group:
-A goblin who boosted a $45 million NGR robot (and is working it from the tech manual and pushing random buttons)
-A Dragonman Cyber-Knight who really likes to continue shooting after the battle is over
-A Chihuahua Dog Boy Rogue Scholar (with a Coalition listening device implanted in his head)
-A very soft-spoken, pleasant young lady who also happens to be an honorably evil Necromancer
-A Russian Slayer who finds himself hating the fact he ever signed up as a Merc for Tolkeen, and supplies in a neutral, well-reasoned tone reasons for killing any enemy they run into.
-A New German Republic Field Medic turned Merc who tries to undo a slight bit of the amazing swath of damage the rest of the group does.
They also have a hostage, a Coalition corporal/comm officer (who resembles John Candy in personailty) who will likely die as soon as they don't need him anymore, but seems mysteriously unperturbed by his plight.
And despite all the gonzo shit in this game, it
works. I could just as easily run a straight-up, all-human Coalition combar game, or a world-hopping epic quest. Rifts is a big tent.
Palladium is also a good source for equipment porn.
Quote from: jrientsPalladium is also a good source for equipment porn.
yes, there is is tons of gear. Enough to set-off someone with a fetish.
Quote from: Mcrowyes, there is is tons of gear. Enough to set-off someone with a fetish.
One of the best parts of Palladium CharGen--shopping for toys!
Quote from: GabrielThis is a thread where I attempt to identify what exactly is so good about the Palladium system, and why some people (like me) keep on trying to get the unworkable mess to work.
1) Classes
One of the strengths of Palladium products is that they have fairly strong, memorable, and appealling character archetypes. This is important for those people who don't want to come up with a character idea from whole cloth (as with more universal games like Hero and GURPS). Although it has changed in recent years, there used to be a good deal of customization to the classes which would allow each one to have some mechanical quirks (Nowadays the rules tend to force each character of a class to not have much variation from another).
2) Combat System
At first glance, Palladium's combat system seems to be very simulationistic. Combat is not as heavily abstracted, and is instead accounted for blow by blow. Characters must actually actively defend. All of this is a pretty big deal for those moving to the game from older editions of D&D, as it addresses the issues many people have with that other game's combat system. It doesn't hurt that damages are generally higher in Palladium and all characters have multiple attacks, adding to a "feel good" element of the combat system.
3) Familiarity
For players of older editions of D&D, Palladium is a very friendly environment. Attributes are rolled with 3d6. Non-Combat abilities are resolved by percentile roll. Combat is d20 based. There are still Hit Points which increase by level. It provides a common base for them to immediately begin assimilating the game.
4) Tinkerability
Many rules in Palladium interlock for different results. The system is ultimately modular, and pieces and parts are fun to sort around and see how they work together. For one thing, there are many ways during character creation to manipulate a character's stats so as to make them more effective. The system rewards knowledge of the rules (such as they are) and mastery. It's a puzzle to be unraveled.
5) Cheap and Meaty
For most of its existence, Palladiumbooks has produced books which tend to be about $5 cheaper than an equivalent product from another publisher. Plus, they tend to be packed much more densely with stats, mechanics, OCCs, and other very rules-tied things than other products. This results in a greater value to the gamer and a greater utility at the game table.
I have to agree with gabriel's points. Its also a sense of nostalgia for me. Plus all the settings besides Rifts. The "After the Bomb" setting has been a favorite of mine for a long time.
Another thing I like is that every adventure I've seen is pretty much an excuse to break some shit and get in trouble, with character bits and investigation existing primarily to connect the action scenes.
Quote from: Gabriel6) The Gonzo Factor
Palladium products are known for their "kitchen sink" mentality and their melding of incongruous gaming elements. Widely disparate and "wacky" concepts are superficially encouraged.
Oddly enough, the gonzo factor does not appeal to me so much. For the most part, I run my games pretty straight-laced.
But I agree with all your other items.
Quote from: jrientsAnother thing I like is that every adventure I've seen is pretty much an excuse to break some shit and get in trouble, with character bits and investigation existing primarily to connect the action scenes.
Rifts, IMO is one of the best action RPGs. If you kicking ass and blowing shit up Rifts is the game for you. Not that you cant intrigue and that sort of thing, because that is there are as well.
It is the raw, unbridled enthusiasm! Cool giant robots! Lasers! Vampires! Demons from other dimesnions! Techno-nazis with intelligent mutant dogs! Mega-damage! Exclamation marks!!!!
The Palladium/RIFTS product family is one of the few which gets comic books, the way more serious adaptations don't.
I also have to add that for me, the Palladium FRPG was a good alternative when I got fed up with 2nd edition AD&D. PFRPG had everything TSR games at that time didn't: assassins, demon summoning and all the rest. PFRPG wasn't ashamed of itself.
TMNT. 'Nuff said.
-clash
Quote from: flyingmiceTMNT. 'Nuff said.
-clash
Man, in my Palladium Holiday Grab Bag (in itself another thing great about Palladium), I got the full line of the old TMNT books, still looking brand-spanking new. I was in heaven.
Quote from: Zachary The FirstMan, in my Palladium Holiday Grab Bag (in itself another thing great about Palladium), I got the full line of the old TMNT books, still looking brand-spanking new. I was in heaven.
I've got the full line too, though I didn't get them in a grab bag... :D
Solid rock!
-clash
Quote from: Zachary The FirstMan, in my Palladium Holiday Grab Bag (in itself another thing great about Palladium), I got the full line of the old TMNT books, still looking brand-spanking new. I was in heaven.
Lucky bastard.:D
Quote from: McrowLucky bastard.:D
I told myself the same thing.
Man, just looking through those book--the possible mutants, Bio-E, the crazy roll results--that RPG should be squarely in the RPG Hall of Fame.
Yeah, it is no doubt one of the best RPGs ever published. :pundit:
Quote from: McrowYeah, it is no doubt one of the best RPGs ever published. :pundit:
Definitely! Gorgeous insanity! :D
-clash
Quote from: Zachary The FirstOne of the best parts of Palladium CharGen--shopping for toys!
Without a doubt, I've never had as much fun generating characters than I have with Heroes Unlimited -- particularly the Cyborgs!
I was never into Palladium Fantasy nor Rifts (not that I hate them, I just never bought any of the books), but I dug Robotech and TMNT a whole lot. Their books were always pretty well put together and affordable. And I once sent Erick Wujcik a fan letter and he wrote back, making me a Wujcik FAN FOR LIFE!!
Say you didn't like the system -- you could implement all the gonzo ass-whack in another setting, another ruleset?
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Say you didn't like the system -- you could implement all the gonzo ass-whack in another setting, another ruleset?
Sure why not. Personally I would really have to hate a system to reinvent the wheel so to speak. But I dont see why not.
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Say you didn't like the system -- you could implement all the gonzo ass-whack in another setting, another ruleset?
Oh yeah. Risus, d6, perhaps even genreDiversion/Impresa would be prime candidates IMO. Palladium's got sort of a hang-up about online conversions, but it is done a fair amount that I've seen. Above all, Rifts books are idea/setting mills.
Rifts Risus is a perfect for the one-shot or short campaign. Mind you, the only big problem with using Risus is missing out on the toy customization, which is why I might recommend something a little crunchier if you wish to convert.
I have one palladium game, a very, vary old old called "the mechanoids" and it was some real over the top, gonzo stuff that made me think what the daleks and cybermen could have been like if dr. who had had an unlimited budget and SFX, plus time to do it all in.
The system sucks, but some of the sheer over the top ideas are good inspiration for other stuff.
Quote from: Gabriel6) The Gonzo Factor
Let's get real here. This is #1, all other pale in comparison.
I find the tastes of those who actually see advantage in most palladium mechanics as curious at best. But hey, when you can play wizards who do as much damage as nuclear weapons, dragons that do as much damage as nuclear weapons, tattoed ancient atlanteans that summon hydras that do as much damage as nuclear weapons, and monkey-things in combat armor that uses nuclear weapons, well, that's just not an experience you are likely to find in any other game.
Quote from: Dominus NoxI have one palladium game, a very, vary old old called "the mechanoids" and it was some real over the top, gonzo stuff that made me think what the daleks and cybermen could have been like if dr. who had had an unlimited budget and SFX, plus time to do it all in.
I used to have copies of the Mechanoids books.
The went missing during the "Great roomate shuffle gaming library disaster of 92." :(
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Say you didn't like the system -- you could implement all the gonzo ass-whack in another setting, another ruleset?
Oh,
hells yes. Palladium material is also good for adapting crunchy bits. Just last week I was desirous of adapting the raccoon dude from Synnibarr (the one with the rocket launcher and the wristwatch) to Encounter Critical. I thought to myself "Hey, I could use the raccoon stat mods from TMNT!" And I did.
Yanno, to be honest, the only one of Palladium's games I ever really hated was Rifts.
The rest of them, while clunky, could actually be rather nifty, so long as you checked that part of you at the door that wants to scream "These mechanics make no sense!"
Heroes Unlimited. Ninjas and Superspies. Nightbane. TMNT.
And hell, I even liked the Rifts dimension books, so long as you ran them as a universe into themselves. Phase World is actually a pretty nifty high-powered sci-fi setting, if you just treat it as it's own world. Wormwood was just freaky wierd.
The only Palladium stuff I own are some of the 1st edition Palladium Fantasy books, and I only acquired them in the last two years. I gotta say, I can understand why some folks back in high school loved these books. The sheer amount of crunchy game stuff and adventure material in each volume is incredible. From descriptions I've heard over the years, I really regret not joining that group of TMNT fanatics back then.
the "beer & pretzels" & kitchen sink mentality of rifts is incredibly fun. i ran a "heroes unlimited" campaign in the late 90's with some rifts & other palladium (e.g. robotech) crossover. definitely felt, well, jack kirby-esque.
one of the things i liked the best, tho, was the sdc/armor rating bit. makes a bit more sense than the AC of d&d (to me, anyway).
Quote from: beeberthe "beer & pretzels" & kitchen sink mentality of rifts is incredibly fun. i ran a "heroes unlimited" campaign in the late 90's with some rifts & other palladium (e.g. robotech) crossover. definitely felt, well, jack kirby-esque.
one of the things i liked the best, tho, was the sdc/armor rating bit. makes a bit more sense than the AC of d&d (to me, anyway).
This is one of the rules I found to never work. Armor was effectively useless.
Any hit roll which was sufficiently high enough to overcome defense rolls would be above the AR and therefore bypass the armor anyway. So, in actual practice, AR/SDC armor NEVER absorbed any damage.
On the other hand, natural armor was too powerful. No damage could be done at all unless you rolled over the AR, and if you did roll over, the damage just depleted the bonus SDC the armor provided. And SDC values were always insanely inflated.
I've always considered the armor rules to be one of the most broken parts of the system, so broken it wasn't even worth attempting to use or fix.
i found that it worked for beginning characters, when you modifiers were low. sure, once your dm's get higher it falls apart, but we never played it long enough for that to happen.
i guess i liked the mix of "armor adds to defense/armor absorbs damage" it provided, as well as a way to roll high enough to beat it. just need to change the latter threshhold?