But is the result of even the slipperiest of slopes a big enough problem to say 'no'?

So your Truth Cleric can detect lies if he performs a 'turning'.  Is that as much of a problem as telling the player no?  Especially when you can always reign it in later, 'mea culpa'?

It's a personal question,  answerable through your own GM style.

If this was PF, my inclination would be "No, it doesn't work that way." There are already at least 3 different counters (Light, Dispel Magic, Continual Flame/Light, and Light is a cantrip so no excuse for not having it), tossing in an extra counter is unreasonable.

Yeah, he's the Cleric of Light, and I get the rationalizations...but why wouldn't such a cleric have some sort of Light spell memorized as given?

"To protect the NPC" is an interesting rationalization, and I can see that being a bit annoying. On the other hand, if the players start getting their stuff countered in ways that really shouldn't work ("the NPC has a hare lip, and constantly spits, forcing your spellcasters to make concentration checks every round), there'd be some pretty righteous complaining.

Now, in OD&D, I'd give him a roll based on the source of the darkness (1,000 year old Continual Darkness, or just cast by a Balrog), and if he failed, "darkness enters your heart", giving him a penalty on his next Turn Undead roll or two.

In this particular case, I would've allowed it simply because it was cool and would've added to the fun of the situation.

However, as a GM you have to be careful not to allow everything like this because then powers and differences between classes mean nothing if you can apply anything to any situation. There have to be limits.

Quote from: Benoist;674651Where do you stop? If you allow that thing with the darkness, why wouldn't another Cleric of the God of Persuasion be able to change people's minds with a "turning attempt"? How about Paladins of the God of Truth turning liars in this way? I suspect the people who say "no" on this thread are worried about the domino effect this might have, and opt to just refuse in an attempt to not open Pandora's door.

In regards to the above portion of your post, I should clarify that a Cleric losing the ability to turn undead for an indeterminate time might be a reasonable trade off for a chance to determine if an individual is lying.

The gm just has to prevent craziness, like "I mind control the Illithid city! bwa ha ha!"

Quote from: Doom;674659If this was PF, my inclination would be "No, it doesn't work that way." There are already at least 3 different counters (Light, Dispel Magic, Continual Flame/Light, and Light is a cantrip so no excuse for not having it), tossing in an extra counter is unreasonable.

Yeah, he's the Cleric of Light, and I get the rationalizations...but why wouldn't such a cleric have some sort of Light spell memorized as given?

"To protect the NPC" is an interesting rationalization, and I can see that being a bit annoying. On the other hand, if the players start getting their stuff countered in ways that really shouldn't work ("the NPC has a hare lip, and constantly spits, forcing your spellcasters to make concentration checks every round), there'd be some pretty righteous complaining.

Now, in OD&D, I'd give him a roll based on the source of the darkness (1,000 year old Continual Darkness, or just cast by a Balrog), and if he failed, "darkness enters your heart", giving him a penalty on his next Turn Undead roll or two.

In Pathfinder, light does not dispel darkness. Just sayin.


Like the darkness entering your heart; that has potential!

I'm recalling an example from being a parent.  It's the difference between...

May I stay up to finish the movie?
And
Why do I need a bedtime?

It's discretion.

Quote from: Doom;674659Yeah, he's the Cleric of Light, and I get the rationalizations...but why wouldn't such a cleric have some sort of Light spell memorized as given?

*DING!*

3E says...

QuoteOther Uses for Positive or Negative Energy
Positive or negative energy may have uses other than affecting undead. For example, a holy site might be guarded by a magic door that opens for any good cleric who can make a turning check high enough to affect a 3-HD undead and that shatters for an evil cleric who can make a similar check.

So there's some leeway for fiddling with the RAW here. Though it makes me uneasy. If I started fiddling with the rules whenever something was off I'd never stop.
If you were playing with Action Points (unearthed arcana) you could do it by 'emulate feat' to get Divine Metamagic, then boosting the level of a light cantrip with Heighten Spell until it equals the darkness spell's level (which would cost them 1 turn undead use +1 per spell level added). Not that anyone uses action points.

Quote from: Bill;674664In Pathfinder, light does not dispel darkness. Just sayin.

Uh... Yeah. It does.

In the D&D I run the Priest either has spells for this, or we chose together a specialty priest class/kit to handle situations like this.

Deity bestowed powers upon the class are specified ahead of time, not "Invoke: Convenience."

Quote from: Opaopajr;674766In the D&D I run the Priest either has spells for this, or we chose together a specialty priest class/kit to handle situations like this.

Deity bestowed powers upon the class are specified ahead of time, not "Invoke: Convenience."

That said, in settings where deities are very active, I'd say that some "divine interventions" are warranted - not even a domain of priests. As I said, a zealous warrior could perhaps invoke god of Suns name as well, if he has done favours for him.

Quote from: Rincewind1;674773As I said, a zealous warrior could perhaps invoke god of Suns name as well, if he has done favours for him.

Crom, I have never prayed to you before. I have no tongue for it. No one, not even you, will remember if we were good men or bad. Why we fought, or why we died. All that matters is that two stood against many. That's what's important! Valor pleases you, Crom... so grant me one request. Grant me revenge! And if you do not listen, then to HELL with you!

Quote from: Opaopajr;674766Deity bestowed powers upon the class are specified ahead of time, not "Invoke: Convenience."

I see it more as "invoke roleplaying fun".

I think my response would be "do you want to permanently trade Turn Undead for Dispel Supernatural Darkness?"

Quote from: The_Rooster;674785Crom, I have never prayed to you before. I have no tongue for it. No one, not even you, will remember if we were good men or bad. Why we fought, or why we died. All that matters is that two stood against many. That's what's important! Valor pleases you, Crom... so grant me one request. Grant me revenge! And if you do not listen, then to HELL with you!

Well, as we all know, Crom is one of those gods who'd actually NOT provide that, seeing how he cared little sitting upon the pile of skulls, but granted a newborn Cymmerian all he needed in life - strength and courage.

In my OD&D game, I have let clerics use "Turn Undead" for various actions that would please their god (aka, if the foe/trouble is in direct opposition), but in general, that's why gods grant spells.

And if the god does grant an extra boon, the cleric better repay their god back with much reward and sacrifice.