Quote from: Madprofessor;980067We're just a little off topic here but...

Agreed, but I'm still thinking what to recommend...you might end up picking a game before I'm over:)!
Did you consider StarORE, BTW? It's the most crunch I've seen in 13 pages, levels over Zenobia.

QuoteI just got my copy of 43 AD in the mail last night from LuLu and was able to give it a quick read.  I must say that it is some of the best writing that I have ever seen in an RPG product.  It is seriously well-done.  The detail of life in the legion, and the darkness of untamed Britain is fantastic, as is the GM advice on how to run a military campaign within the social dynamics of an RPG group.  It's 200 pages of system neutral, and actually useful, campaign advice. To the contrary of your statement, I deeply appreciate it as an RPG supplement... It also contains about 20 pages of weak-ass rules.  

OK, I've misunderstood you. My apologies for that, it happens!

QuoteThis + Cthulhu Invictus = a brilliant historical sword and sandal horror rpg, IMO.  The setting material in 43 AD is so far above the generic crud published by Chaosium... they're not even in the same plane.

Well, never read Chthulhu Invictus, but I can see what you mean;).

QuoteWell, I used the term "narrativist" a little lightly and flippantly.  But it is clear here that what I call "weak-ass rules" are not an afterthought or the result of armature game-design. This is conscious and intentional minimalism, a bit like the Prince Valiant RPG.

Yes.

QuoteYou are right that it can be played completely IC, but without mechanics it relies almost completely on narration and description, like the make-believe world-parameters are the rules.

Yes. I prefer the rules to reflect the make-believe world parameters, so they'd give outcomes that fit the logical range. and Zenobia simply tells me "adjudicate now, what happens in this situation"?
So the "rules" always fit my idea of believability.

QuoteIf D&D is like wargaming superimposed over play-pretend, then Zenobia strips away most of the wargame. In place of rules, it is just adult play-pretend regulated by social contract and highly detailed milieu.

You say "strips away". I say "returns to Frei Kriegspiel" (a term I learned due to Gronan and Chirine on this forum, I admit, but I did my research afterwards).
That's all the difference between our opinions.
And I admit that I lean more and more towards Frei Kriegspiel-style of play, though I use Traveller as my basis.

QuoteIt's quite cool, but my groups would just be like "wow, this game has weak-ass rules."

Then it's also not suitable for your group! But, as you said, the setting material alone makes it worth picking.
And if you end up using a 2d6 system, like BoL, you should totally consider adding the Manoeuvers/Special Effects from Zenobia/43 AD, because amusingly, that would make it way more realistic;).

Quote from: Loz;980116It's been out for a while... http://thedesignmechanism.com/products.php#!/Mythic-Earth/c/24197109/offset=0&sort=normal

It is a reworking of Pete's BRP supplement, but with new layout and art, and obviously converted to Mythras. If you have Rome: Life and Death, you don't strictly need Mythic Rome, but we'd never dream of talking you out of buying a copy...

Ah, I do have Pete's Rome: Life and Death for BRP and enjoy it very much. That is probably why I didn't notice the new version.

Someone on this thread mentioned a Mythras Mythic Greece supplement in the works.  Any truth to that?

Quote from: Madprofessor;980147Someone on this thread mentioned a Mythras Mythic Greece supplement in the works.  Any truth to that?

Yep. I'm working on it intermittently at the moment.

Quote from: Pete Nash;980160Yep. I'm working on it intermittently at the moment.

why are you posting! work!

Quote from: Pete Nash;980160Yep. I'm working on it intermittently at the moment.

Well, such a book would certainly make the question of this thread a bit rhetorical.

Not to put you on the spot, but is there a particular focus in period or concept?  For example, Homeric vs classical or mythological vs historical?  Certainly Mythic Britain had a particular vision.  Can you give us the elevator pitch?

Its Homeric mythological Mycenaean, with a historical basis towards lifestyle, weaponry, etc where archaeological evidence exists. Its more mythic than my Rome and Viking books.

Quote from: Madprofessor;980091Oooh, Shiny!  That looks wicked cool.  There needs to be more neolithic stone age type RPGs.  In fact, I can't think of any other than GURPS Ice Age. I'll have to get this.

I haven't read it in awhile, but from my limited memories, it seemed decent. I wanted to give it a whirl, but never found anyone interested in playing

Quote from: Pete Nash;980231Its Homeric mythological Mycenaean, with a historical basis towards lifestyle, weaponry, etc where archaeological evidence exists. Its more mythic than my Rome and Viking books.

Sounds similar to the old Mythic Greece supplement.
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Which I see as a good thing. Despite not using either Rolemaster/MERP or Fantasy HERO, I like their Mythic Greece supplement a lot. It had good maps of the Aegean, the Med, and the wider world (with a mythic POV) and its culture sections were useful and had the right level of detail for me as a GM. I used it to run a fun campaign using RQ/BRP back in the 1980s. If a D100 version had existed back then I would have purchased it and saved myself some conversion work.

Quote from: Bren;980320Sounds similar to the old Mythic Greece supplement.
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Which I see as a good thing. Despite not using either Rolemaster/MERP or Fantasy HERO, I like their Mythic Greece supplement a lot. It had good maps of the Aegean, the Med, and the wider world (with a mythic POV) and its culture sections were useful and had the right level of detail for me as a GM. I used it to run a fun campaign using RQ/BRP back in the 1980s. If a D100 version had existed back then I would have purchased it and saved myself some conversion work.

That's a book I'd like to acquire. Still waiting to find a copy at a price I'm willing to pay. What would you say the level of detail is like? I'm especially interested in the homes of people, ships, clothing, armor, and weapons, aside from of course maps of what's where and ideas for what to do there.

Quote from: Madprofessor;980091Oooh, Shiny!  That looks wicked cool.  There needs to be more neolithic stone age type RPGs.  In fact, I can't think of any other than GURPS Ice Age. I'll have to get this.

There are some out there:
Cavemaster
Wurm
Wolf-Packs and Winter Snow
Legend:  Land of Ice and Snow



Og

Quote from: Simon W;979937I think Heroes of Hellas is an extremely good variant of BoL - its probably my favourite of all of the BoL genre books. I understand a new edition is in the works.

Hi Simon, glad you stopped by.  I agree with you that HoH is excellent.  It stays vary close to the base game but adds a lot of material and great ideas. I know you added some of it into Mythic like naval rules and mass combat.  Probably my favorite genre adjustment though is the link between the gods and hero points.  I am not sure what he needs to add for Mythic, but I would certainly support it.

Another variant I really like is Peter's Barbarians of the Dark Ages, or Mirkwood (it needs a name).  It is conceptually fantastic with its focus on relationships, honor and glory within the meadhall in an age of darkness and ignorance.  It's great stuff.

More likely than not, I will use BoL and HoH as the basis for the Bronze Age game I am planning (unless I decide to wait for Pete's Mythic Greece), though if I do, I will modify it heavily...  not because it needs it, but because that's what I always do and because BoL is my favorite game to hack.  I turn to BoL often because it is a robust engine that is easily adapted and withstands my houserules and hacks.

Oh, and I just got my copy of the BoL Hack. I like the mechanical adjustments and the way classes and levels were implemented.  It breaks up the granularity a bit with the d20. I think it makes a nice mechanical upgrade as options for bol. My only hiccup is that I don't see the need for another game adapted to bog standard dungeon crawling D&D setting, we have enough of that, but I'm not judging, and I'll happily steal the rules.

Cheers,

and if you ever want to pick up the torch for BoL Everywhen... I'd be all over it.

Quote from: Dumarest;980352That's a book I'd like to acquire. Still waiting to find a copy at a price I'm willing to pay. What would you say the level of detail is like? I'm especially interested in the homes of people, ships, clothing, armor, and weapons, aside from of course maps of what's where and ideas for what to do there.

The level of detail is minimal. There is a price list measured in oxen and bronze bowls and stuff. Ships and chariots are means of transportation as they were in the period or at least in the descriptions in the Iliad, Odyssey, and Argonautica. Ships aren't intended for sea battles. There isn't the sort of detail to provide for a wooden ships and bronze men campaign, but from my reading a sea battles campaign wouldn't really be accurate for the period (Egyptian vs Sea Peoples battle aside).

As far as clothing, there are a number of black and white illustrations that depict clothing and armor and such, there's a map of a Mycenaean palace to use as a model, but if you want really detailed, completely accurate (as far as we know based on current archaeological discoveries) your going to need to do original research. I don't recall that there is any detailed description of what a peasant's hovel looks like in the period but I'd imagine most GMs could wing something that was close enough to satisfy (or at least not annoy) most players.

The book is trying to cover both Greek myths and historical stuff from the time period around the Mycenaean era so too much detail would only create contradictions when source material like the Illiad and the Odyssey aren't an accurate depiction of bronze age culture, customs, arms, or armor. That said, there is enough cultural information to portray bronze age Aegean culture as different from the present, the typical RPG Medieval pastiche, or most other RPG settings.

Other than what I mentioned, I can't recall exactly how many depictions or detailed descriptions there were of homes of people, ships, clothing, armor, and weapons. But I already had seen that from history books, museum tours, and such. I had two Mycenaen citadel plans from my Griffon Mountain supplement for Runequest 2. (One of the citadels is a ringer for Mycenae.) And with the internet it's pretty easy to hunt up illustrations like a picture of the Dendra Panoply or a Mycenean boars tusk helmet.

I found the book had exactly what I needed to run a mythic Greece campaign.

Quote from: Madprofessor;980091Oooh, Shiny!  That looks wicked cool.  There needs to be more neolithic stone age type RPGs.  In fact, I can't think of any other than GURPS Ice Age. I'll have to get this.

The old Griffon Mountain supplement for Runequest 2 had Neolithic hunter gatherers as the predominant culture in Balazar. They were adjacent to three Mycenaean-like citadels so there was a mix of bronze age and stone age. It wouldn't have been difficult to strip out the bronze age civilization and just run hunter gathers though.

Quote from: Bren;980320Sounds similar to the old Mythic Greece supplement.
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Which I see as a good thing. Despite not using either Rolemaster/MERP or Fantasy HERO, I like their Mythic Greece supplement a lot. It had good maps of the Aegean, the Med, and the wider world (with a mythic POV) and its culture sections were useful and had the right level of detail for me as a GM. I used it to run a fun campaign using RQ/BRP back in the 1980s. If a D100 version had existed back then I would have purchased it and saved myself some conversion work.

I bought Mythic Greece enthusiastically when it came out. I had it for ages but never did anything with it.  I sold it a couple of years ago for pretty good $$.  I figured I would never play rolemaster again (and never had any interest in Hero).  I just don't have much recollection about the content.  Maybe I should have kept it.

QuoteThe old Griffon Mountain supplement for Runequest 2 had Neolithic hunter gatherers as the predominant culture in Balazar. They were adjacent to three Mycenaean-like citadels so there was a mix of bronze age and stone age. It wouldn't have been difficult to strip out the bronze age civilization and just run hunter gathers though.

Yeah, I had forgotten about Griffon Mountain.  I have a tattered copy around here but haven't touched it in ages.  Did early RQ do any other bronze age style adventures that you know of?

Quote from: Madprofessor;980627Yeah, I had forgotten about Griffon Mountain.  I have a tattered copy around here but haven't touched it in ages.  Did early RQ do any other bronze age style adventures that you know of?

From a certain point of view the vast majority of Glorantha is Bronze Age because the metal in everyday use is called bronze not iron. From a different point of view (and Glorantha always has one or more different points of view about everything) the metal called bronze isn't really bronze (i.e. an alloy of copper and tin). Gloranthan bronze isn't an alloy but something mined directly from the bones of dead gods, and it isn't the only metal used (there is also iron and various elemental metals) - though bronze is by far the dominant metal in use.

The mythological trappings and underpinnings of Glorantha are very bronze age but, with the exception of the citadels in Balazar, somehow very few if any of the published adventures feel bronze age to me. They feel iron age in the same sense that Beowulf is Iron Age.