Quote from: TristramEvans;853614I dont know the fellow from dam, but that was a very well written objection and most of his points mirror my own thoughts on the subject.

Seconded.

Quote from: Sytthas;853618Though I'm not sure I agree with some of his methods, I fully agree with Pundits sentiment. Only by realizing this is bullshit and rejecting it as adamantly as possible will there be any chance of it not becoming even deeper bullshit.

I agree. I'm at a loss on what approach will be the most effective, so I'm reluctant to reject Pundit's proposal. But somehow making a stand is certainly in order.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;853602I just heard back from Steve on the clarification. His response indicated:

-He does think there is difference between RPGs and movies, because there is the "I" element of people playing their character.
...

That's exactly why we need this. There is no proof that playing RPGs makes you a rapist.

Pundit - I'm in. I'm going to start standing up a site for testing ASAP.

OK, I sent Steve Wieck an email, and he responded quickly. I told him that I've seen quite enough of the attempts at silencing people in gaming and at universities.*

Anyway, Mr. Wieck says  that he generally dislikes how polarized the field has become. He hopes that gaming will continue to have room for all sorts of games, including games that aren't totally PC, but that ToR had some very specific problems. Not much specifics beyond that though, but I appreciated his quick response.



*this is actually where I think the whole 'outrage' trend comes from. Notice that Bill Maher and Jerry Seinfeld has said similar things about students' inability to tolerate anything that's not PC. I have also seen it in my students, and some professors confirm the same observation. Not so much in natural sciences, but in Humanities and people who do both. Not surprisingly many gamers are, or have been, university students.

Quote from: Melichor;853604Everything you just posted lends credibility to Pundit's concerns.

He is wanting people to decide which side of that line they stand on, freedom or censorship. Some people will try to straddle the line, but really that's a slippery slope and once enough momentum is reached impossible to stop.

Based on past history he is right to be worried. If that button existed a while back his products would have been targeted in an overwhelming wave of vitriol and spite. Not because the products are offensive, but to drive him out. Besides taking it personally there is a business aspect to this issue.

Removing his products from a venue that exposes them to the risk of not being able to sell them anyway is a valid business move - risk analysis, CBA, etc.
Establishing an alternate venue for selling his and other products that certain groups have deemed unacceptable is what happens when the existing system doesn't work or entails too much risk.

Forming a sort of co-op to support the creation of that venue might be the right way to resolve this issue. If it hurts OBS's bottom line, that's the way business works. They did their own risk analysis, CBA, etc. and made their decision.

Based on your comments it appears that you have judged the offending product through your own subjective personal lens, probably using other outraged views to support it.

Would you have used a report button for this product?

Did you actually look at the product?
Or are you offended from just the title and maybe misreading the promo blurb?


Also: Politically Correct Rapists?
Probably more offensive than an RPG supplement where the heroes fight evil rapists.

I haven't read Tournament of Rapists directly, just the excerpts and screenshots presented earlier when all this blew up. But it was enough to tell me that is was a meritless and offensively juvenile take on a sensitive subject. It was also poorly written, poorly edited, poorly designed, and poorly illustrated. I am perfectly content that DTRPG decided not to sell it on their storefront.

That said, I am not personally upset by its existence. I would not have reported it myself. I certainly would not have pulled my own book from DTRPG if they had chosen to keep selling it. I don't really care about it that much.

I think the difference between me and some other people posting in these threads is simply that I do not see the rape book as a watershed moment. I do not see any evidence of a coming tidal wave of censorship and witch hunts. If this furore were to expand into going after pundit's games, or Raggi's, or ZakS's, then I would be unhappy and would lodge my protests on various fora like the rest of you. I have not read any of their games (not for any political reasons, I'm just not that into OSR although Zak's stuff looks interesting) but I can see that their products add something to the hobby. Similarly, games that mention rape or other mature themes but treat them in a non sensationalist way - Kult, RQ, White Wolf stuff - should remain a part of the hobby and not be excised. I am aware of no existing RPGs that I would like to see censored or censured.

I do support the increased efforts to make games more inclusive, but I think the way to do this is to add to the overall conversation rather than to subtract from it. I am producing a book now and I have a female starfighter pilot on the cover. I am trying to think about representation of women and minorities etc in the internal artwork (my artist, Storn Cook, is also very good on this in any event) and also in the example characters presented. I have also rewritten the text to use singular they rather than the default male pronoun. This does not make me a hero. I am not doing it because of outside pressure, or to try to curry favour with anyone, I am doing it because I think it is the right thing to do. It is a small, positive step towards making the hobby more welcoming.

Quote from: One Horse Town;853607Well, David Chart has come out as against the decision.

http://www.davidchart.com/2015/09/04/onebookshelfs-offensive-content-policy/

I've no idea who David Chart is, but that was a well written post. I disagree with some of his premises, but his conclusion is one I can solidly agree with.

Don't know who Shanna Germaine is either. Apparently she writes erotic and erotic bondage fiction.

Quote from: Trond;853629OK, I sent Steve Wieck an email, and he responded quickly.

I haven't seen a response other than the bland "we forwarded this to the decision makers" blurb from Customer Service. Apparently Steve likes you better than he likes me.

I thought TOR was over the line and said as much to OBS, but I didn't tell them to censor it. I did say it should be filtered content.

I worry that no matter what policy OBS makes concerning hot button content it runs the risk of the Law of Unintended Consequences. In the case of the current proposal it seems too easy to whip up a mob against a particular author or product. Also it could be an incredible drain on resources to have to look at every frivilous report.

I would rather see a more restrictive set of voluntary opt in categories for extreme content than censorship. I would opt out of "sexual violence", possibly in to "explicit sex", and in to "graphic violence". That way I hopefully wouldn't see things like ToR, but would still see horror games for example. Also that way publishers wouldn't have to fear the mob, or overly sensitive OBS screeners.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;853602...
-On issues of content, like human sacrifice for example, he says there is a spectrum where some treatments will be better than others. If the game rewards you with XP for raping and sacrificing virgins for example, that may be an issue, at the other end where you have selfless self sacrifice to the god it would not be an issue.

HA! Bye bye Carcosa...

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;853602-On issues of content, like human sacrifice for example, he says there is a spectrum where some treatments will be better than others. If the game rewards you with XP for raping and sacrificing virgins for example, that may be an issue, at the other end where you have selfless self sacrifice to the god it would not be an issue.

From that bit it sounds like Carcosa might find its head on the block... and maybe more generally any game that lets PCs engage in 'blood magic'.

EDIT: Oh! Looks like I had a simulthought with Necrozius.

I agree with the Dave Chart piece that some sort of cooling off period before announcing a new policy would have been a good idea.

Honestly, the only thing the ToR fracas did was draw attention to a policy that already exists. Steve Wieck has taken a hands-off approach to content uploaded to OBS, but in reality no business owner can afford to be a full blown free speech absolutist with respect to the products he or she carries. There was always a line that would get you booted if you crossed it. The ToR guy just found out where it was. And honestly, naming your game Tournament of Rapists is basically straight up trolling. I don't see how the guy who made it can possibly be surprised at what happened.

I think the current system of "I'm very hands-off, but if I think your stuff is creepy enough that it will hurt my business then it's gone" works fine. Certainly Wieck seems to have used his judgement responsibly so far. I'm not sure whether "hard cases make bad law" is the right metaphor here, but the fact that one extreme edge case got pulled isn't an indication that the system doesn't basically work.

Crowdsourcing these decisions, on the other hand (which is sort of what the "this offends me" button will encourage), is a bad idea given the internet's tendency to let small noisy groups and people with too much time on their hands garner outsized amounts of influence.

Quote from: Dimitrios;853641There was always a line that would get you booted if you crossed it. The ToR guy just found out where it was.

Again, ToR did not get "booted"... the author/publisher took it down themselves. It's not obvious whether or not it would have remained in place if they hadn't.

Carcosa is a perfect example of a title that I am sure is offensive to many, but I think should remain available.

I am not offended by it, maybe because I have not read it. I know it is dark, weird fantasy, but that covers a lot of territory.

ToR had an offensive title and a very offensive blurb. It did seem like an attention grabbing stunt. So does "Fuck for Satan" for LotFP, at least the title does.

Quote from: DavetheLost;853645Carcosa is a perfect example of a title that I am sure is offensive to many, but I think should remain available.

I am not offended by it, maybe because I have not read it. I know it is dark, weird fantasy, but that covers a lot of territory.

ToR had an offensive title and a very offensive blurb. It did seem like an attention grabbing stunt. So does "Fuck for Satan" for LotFP, at least the title does.

Granted both ToR and FfS have titles that grab the attention in a way that "Carcosa" does not. But what's your rationale for saying ToR is over a line and Carcosa isn't over a line when you haven't read either game, just the titles and a blurb?

And speaking of titles, the titles of ToR and FfS seem the RPG equivalent of the racy covers, suggestive titles, and harsh or salacious lyrics of certain music CDs e.g. a lot of Rap, a lot of Metal, a lot of Punk, and a fair amount of pop. Now I understand why one might not enjoy or appreciate the titles and artwork of ToR and FfS. But isn't the same thing true of CDs - both outside and inside the case? And are there not plenty of CD covers, titles, and lyrics that some people (sometimes many people) find upsetting, offensive, and scary? But haven't we already seen that battle play out for music? Do we really want to create or enable a Tipper Gore for RPGs?

The report button is a loaded gun laying right out on the coffee table , and in the current climate certain people are going to use it against certain other people the first chance they get. The actual "Offensiveness" of the reported product is almost irrelevant.

This is going to be a massive clusterfuck.

There is another edge to this sword.
What do you do if there are a number of games that you have purchased and all of a sudden they are no longer available?

As a consumer I am concerned.
Will OBS refund my money? This is not likely.
Will I still have access to my purchases? Kinda defeats the purpose of removing the offensive content.

This could (will?) have a chilling a affect on sales of edgy material.
Which spans the comics and fiction sections of OBS.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;853650The report button is a loaded gun laying right out on the coffee table , and in the current climate certain people are going to use it against certain other people the first chance they get. The actual "Offensiveness" of the reported product is almost irrelevant.

This is going to be a massive clusterfuck.

Yeah, disaster waiting to happen, especially once you get some clique of hamfisted, biased evaluators in there determining what's objectionable. OBS turns into TBP in no time.