Ravenloft is one big open air dungeon. With a castle to fool you.

Quote from: Omega;896077Ravenloft is one big open air dungeon. With a castle to fool you.

http://theangrygm.com/every-adventures-a-dungeon/

Quote from: Opaopajr;896033I play other games, but I look back and really find myself wanting to go back to AD&D 2e. The core chassis was easy, just about everything else is optional or modular, the locations were often fresh yet approachable (not too alien or 'trying too hard'), and the sheer volume of world building material to save the DM time.

I've pretty much settled on 2nd ed as "My" edition. After getting replacement rulebooks, I typed up a couple pages of the houserules that I've been using since the 80's. We should be getting some games in this summer, and I'll have 2nd ed ready if anyone asks me to GM.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;896127I've pretty much settled on 2nd ed as "My" edition. After getting replacement rulebooks, I typed up a couple pages of the houserules that I've been using since the 80's. We should be getting some games in this summer, and I'll have 2nd ed ready if anyone asks me to GM.

My biggest advice upon returning, go scribble up your own DM Screen from scratch - or at least have a notebook with those tables put in.

I can't tell you how many times I was pleased with photocopying or scribbling out several of the DMG tables for encounters (Not Random Encounter Tables; I'm referring to distances, lighting, "first impressions" reactions, morale, Mv rates for land, sea, & air, etc.). When you can skip merrily along into the game with nary more paper than PHB, DM Screen, manila folder of campaign notes (Who's Who NPCs, Random Encounter Tables, Maps, etc.), scratch paper (maybe graph, if you're player are well behaved), and a fistful of index cards, you begin to wonder why you got into the habit of lugging around reams. And the great thing is, if you do your DM Screen well enough, and internalize a few core PHB rules, you don't even end up taking the PHB out at all unless a new player wants to jump in.

When the table is mostly Screen/Notebook, Campaign Folder, Scratch Paper, Index Cards, and then dice and pencils, it's remarkably liberating. (Edit: it's also great advice for many other rules light to medium RPGs as well, I find.)

I started gaming in 1989. My early gaming was heavily influenced by the BECMI sample dungeon and the adventure modules I was picking up (primarily from the used section of Pinnacle Games in Rochester, MN). This included a strange melange of sources, most notably:

- B3: Palace of the Silver Princess
- B1: Keep on the Borderlands
- DLE1: In Search of Dragons

Of these, I'd say B3 probably had the largest influence (for whatever reason). My dungeon maps were based on it and the BECMI sample dungeon. (BECMI and AD&D completely failed to explain how hexcrawls were supposed to work in actual practice, so I never got into those except for drawing hex maps.)

My second phase was joining a group of other gamer geeks in 5th grade. We each had a stable of characters and would swap of DMing duties. We played exclusively at school during breaks, which meant 15 minutes here, an hour over lunch, etc.

When the rest of my group moved away at the end of that school year, my third phase was primarily gaming on the ADND echo on FidoNet and on the Prodigy message boards. The latter was primarily an "arena" game with multiple GMs who ran separate threads each describing a social location or ongoing scenario. You could go to the local tavern, for example, by posting there. You could also challenge other PCs to duels in the arena. (It was a very interesting open table format and I've never seen anything quite like it since.) The AD&D echo games, due the exigencies of their non-synchronous message distribution, had a strong sense of story to them. (GMs would post short narrative pieces of fiction describing what was happening. Players would respond with their "moves", which consisted of both immediate responses and hypothetical extrapolations of what they would do next depending on what happened. The GM would gather those together, interpolate a new piece of short fiction up to the point where they no longer felt confident in interpreting the players' intentions, and then wait for the next round of responses.)

Around this time I was also discovering theater, and I pretty firmly embraced "RPGs are storytelling and character acting". I also realized that AD&D was a clunky monstrosity of a game and, after trying to fix it, I moved on to other RPGs.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;895992Bullshit.  The Dart Throwing Fighter was but one incident of Min/Max in all editions.

Quote from: Opaopajr;896022It's white room arena theory crafting at its laughably worst.

As is most min/maxing nowadays.

1e had double specialization and Oriental Adventures iron fist karate experts; 2e had bladesingers and dart specialists and Player's Options books; 3e had oddball combinations from 12 splat books (or just core tier 1s). I think the big difference was that before 3e, the designers hadn't presented the material as all planned out and balanced, so for the most part we didn't expect it (or maybe it's just everyone being on the internet now to constantly rehash where the system breaks down). "No sane DM would allow that" has always been a required component to the game, now we just say it like it's like confessing a sin. :-)

To the OP-- I think the fact that I was 15-26 in the 2e era played more of a role in how my games went than any influence from the game books. All the game settings did reinforce the idea that we were playing 'in a world' to be fleshed out had some influence on our DMs, myself included. We did all rush to buy (or at least have one of us buy) each new splatbook, and after the complete fighter book came out, there was a flurry of pirates and swashbucklers and so on. The talk about kit cheese has always confused me. Most of them basically just moved you back to what you already had in 1e or basic (an extra weapon proficiency? yay! I was proficient in all weapons before and it didn't break the game). Even the much ballyhooed bladesinger just gave you back some AC or something for you elven fighter/mu, which was nothing compared to being able to wear armor in 1e. After the fact I saw some of the kits in the FR warriors and priests of the realm book and saw some kits that were truly overpowered (priests of Meilikki could get fighter Str and Con bonus to hp for no clear reason). We still went to dungeons, travelled through wildernesses, etc. We did go on quests and things that broke the dungeon/wilderness-hexcrawl thing, but I think we did that in basic as well.

The most definitive thing that I would say existed about 2e was that it was mostly me, my group, Dragon Magazine, and maybe the FLGS to influence how I saw the game. No internet forums. No one pointing out rules we'd missed or that something was our homebrew solution. The same is true of basic and 1e. The difference is that I've gone back and played those again recently (1e more than I ever did back in the day). 2e is still encapsulated in the hazy teenage/pre-internet (for gaming for me) days and thus has a nostalgic halo around it.

Quote from: The_Shadow;895765I basically sat out the 2e era, at least as far as D&D goes. Re-reading some old Dragon issues, I feel a kind of nostalgia, even though I wasn't taking part at the time. I can see the ren-faire thing going on, plenty of attempts to make play "serious" and with in-depth campaign worlds rather than just dungeon exploration, and so on. There's an attempt to make 2e a generic fantasy toolkit rather than a recognition that D&D is its own thing.

But how was your play at the time? Did you still approach things the way you had with 1e? Did you use one of the manifold TSR settings or a homebrew? Did you feel there was a tension between the rules and the play culture? Were you having a good time or was it starting to wear thin?

Well, that was my introduction to RPGs, and if it wasn't for gamebooks and board/wargames that preceded it, I would have totally given up on the idea. Suffice it to say that after that experience for a time I considered CRPGs to be superior, including regarding the freedom of choice of player actions:).
(Turned out someone I knew was developing his own game and invited me on a test session to show me how it's done. He did, and this was what changed my mind).

But, what I remember of 2e was:
The core, Fighter's Options, and Skills and Tactics together did not contain the material for the kind of fighter I wanted to play (a human skirmisher with a kusarigama - and yes, I read all three of these before my first session).

The adventure being a module, and awfully railroady (though we called the "railroads" "meat sticks" instead, borrowing a term from gamebooks).

The GM not having an idea how to adjudicate players actually using, you know, tactics. We were all newbies, and it seems his last group of supposedly experienced players were using the tactics of "charge", "shoot", "step and attack" and "cast spell".
By contrast, in our first fight, when some bandits bursted into the inn, we used (without having planned in advance):

• Attempting to sucker punch them (the GM first thought I'm really trying to surrender to save my skin, and reminded me threateningly that my alignment is Neutral Good and there are civilians around...then, after I told him I want to actually use my Martial Arts to get close and sucker punch the guy, it suddenly didn't work and he struck me first).
• Taking higher ground and using thrown weapons and acrobatics to keep at a distance. This kinda worked, though it seemed that being on higher ground - tables - and throwing knives from there didn't provide bonuses. And the bandit seemed to reach him most if not all of the time.
• Reducing the amount of light in order to make the best use of my skill at fighting without seeing (failed, the GM ruled that "blind fighting" only helps when there's no light, not when there's less light).
• Disarming from distance. Why do you think I have a kusarigama? But it turned out the bandits were unphased by superior skill and immediately took out short swords which they had as sidearms. End result: spending two actions to make one of them lose an action by pulling a shorter sword (and his damage going from d8 to d6)
• Retreating and setting up a trap on the run (the bandit ran over the cord).
• Throwing sand in an enemy's eyes. At least the sand worked, though we wondered why exactly it doesn't make the enemy easier to hit, and why the thief who was fighting him now can't backstab a target that doesn't see him.

In the end the battle was resolved when I said "screw tactics". Then I proceeded to slash the closer one with the kama, and then bashed the one who was attacking the druid with the weight from a distance, dropping half of them in less time than I'd spent trying to inconvenience them (due to my damage bonus, they couldn't even withstand a single attack).
Which was, frankly, not the message I'd want to send to a group of newbies, but it seemed that that was what the GM was expecting and rewarding. Still not sure why, except maybe because HP damage has extensive rules and our tricks weren't well covered.


The adventure being an awful railroad, with everyone being unphazed that the inn has been attacked. Didn't matter that the innkeeper's daughter, whom they probably knew personally, was kidnapped, either.
What mattered was: it was the villagers' day off in the week, and damn them if they could be bothered to trade us supplies on (Sabbat, Shabbat, Sunday or whatever day it was)! Didn't even matter that we had fought off bandits and were planning to attack dangerous brigands who were able to just sneak in and capture a girl.
I hope this was the adventure, but I can't assume it wasn't the GM (who was a university student, so no, he doesn't have the high-school excuse). In fact, it seems likely.


So, if anyone wonders why I was suspicious towards "rulings, not rules" for a long, long time...it was experiences like that one:D!

Quote from: AsenRG;896350So, if anyone wonders why I was suspicious towards "rulings, not rules" for a long, long time...it was experiences like that one:D!

Well, someone comes to me and says they want a "skirmisher with a kusarigama", we're going to have a talk, because they obviously are coming with some very specific ideas in mind.  Someone who thinks "skirmisher with a kusarigama" I can guarantee you doesn't have in mind "skirmisher with a kusarigama" at First Level. (Holy Shit the classic Smileys are back, WOOHOO, thanks Brett.)

That having been said, it sounds like a painfully bad GM.  Simple stat checks would have made a big difference there in a lot of cases, also the GM makes the mistake of judging the character's motivation and not going by a good rule of thumb "if the player fooled you, they probably fooled the NPC too".

Quote from: Justin Alexander;896312I started gaming in 1989. My early gaming was heavily influenced by the BECMI sample dungeon and the adventure modules I was picking up (primarily from the used section of Pinnacle Games in Rochester, MN).

   Now that brings back memories. I started gaming only about a year later, and in the same general area. (Chatfield resident, rather than Rochester proper--for those of you who don't know the area, Chatfield is one of numerous small farming towns scattered about the area; Rochester is the 'major' urban hub of the region. At the time, it was about 80,000 souls.) So I also prowled Pinnacle when I could get there, although I spent more of my gaming dollars at B.Dalton and Waldenbooks. I still have some of the stuff I bought from there, new and used--the Rolemaster boxed set, Fantasy Hero Companion and Rolemaster Companion VI, used copies of the Ravenloft boxed set and RA1 Feast of Goblyns.

  They went out of business in early '93, right?
 
  Our gaming started as a 1E/2E hybrid, since the father of some friends had played and let them use his 1E PHB. We moved on to full 2E after a few months, with games heavily influenced by computer and NES RPGs. Unfortunately, as pre-teens/early teens of varying backgrounds and levels of maturity, parental beliefs, etc., the group fractured and I actually moved into an anti-D&D phase for about a year. I never did really rejoin that circle of friends that much (partially for that, partially for being placed in advanced classes), which is part of why so much of my gaming has been theoretical or 'armchair' for long stretches.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;896338As is most min/maxing nowadays.

1e had double specialization and Oriental Adventures iron fist karate experts; 2e had bladesingers and dart specialists and Player's Options books; 3e had oddball combinations from 12 splat books (or just core tier 1s). I think the big difference was that before 3e, the designers hadn't presented the material as all planned out and balanced, so for the most part we didn't expect it (or maybe it's just everyone being on the internet now to constantly rehash where the system breaks down).

Actually it's the internet.  Before the Internet we didn't have a easy access to a network of stories of people who claim have done in their game.

Sounds mostly like an adventure module issue with a green (or poorly rules-savvy) GM.

About the kusarigama -- that's dirt easy, that's an adapted Chain weapon in Complete Fighter Handbook (the Fighter's Options, you said).

Kusarigama is a lenght of chain with a lump on one end and a sickle on the other.

By PHB and CFH alone:
* Sickles are small, slashing, Speed 4, damage 1d4+1 (lg mob: 1d4) weapons.
* Chains are large, bludgeoning, Speed 5, damage 1d4+1 (lg mob: 1d4) weapons. They also allow Called Shots: Disarm, Parry, Strike/Thrust. And they have 3 of 5 of the Lasso special attacks: Pull/Trip by attacking target's legs, Dismount a Rider, and Snag a Rider's Head.

* Kusarigama is a combination of the two. The damage is the same between both of the above, and speed factor is almost the same. All I would do is insist it was a two-handed weapon, deals bludgeoning or slashing (decide beforehand), and Speed 5 or maybe 6 (if you even use Weapon Speeds). Then give me its specific chain length in feet and I determine its range increments from there. And it gets the above Chain functions for Called Shots and Special Attacks. Ta-dah, done.

Or were you looking to cheese the system a bit more by snowing the GM with bullshit? Nah, your young self wouldn't do that. You're pure, like an angel, of this I am sure! I remember being young and impressionable by terrible chop sockey flicks of the 1980s...

Remember, regardless of Eastern weapon fetishization of that time, katanas are just long swords by another name -- not the higher damage powerhouses in their D&D statline. And similarly it's easy to take the same tack to rewording weapons that were essentially not all that different. As a GM, I don't play that power inflation game -- I know better.

Quote from: AsenRG;896350But, what I remember of 2e was:
The core, Fighter's Options, and Skills and Tactics together did not contain the material for the kind of fighter I wanted to play (a human skirmisher with a kusarigama - and yes, I read all three of these before my first session).

The adventure being a module, and awfully railroady (though we called the "railroads" "meat sticks" instead, borrowing a term from gamebooks).

The GM not having an idea how to adjudicate players actually using, you know, tactics. We were all newbies, and it seems his last group of supposedly experienced players were using the tactics of "charge", "shoot", "step and attack" and "cast spell".
By contrast, in our first fight, when some bandits bursted into the inn, we used (without having planned in advance):

• Attempting to sucker punch them (the GM first thought I'm really trying to surrender to save my skin, and reminded me threateningly that my alignment is Neutral Good and there are civilians around...then, after I told him I want to actually use my Martial Arts to get close and sucker punch the guy, it suddenly didn't work and he struck me first).
• Taking higher ground and using thrown weapons and acrobatics to keep at a distance. This kinda worked, though it seemed that being on higher ground - tables - and throwing knives from there didn't provide bonuses. And the bandit seemed to reach him most if not all of the time.
• Reducing the amount of light in order to make the best use of my skill at fighting without seeing (failed, the GM ruled that "blind fighting" only helps when there's no light, not when there's less light).
• Disarming from distance. Why do you think I have a kusarigama? But it turned out the bandits were unphased by superior skill and immediately took out short swords which they had as sidearms. End result: spending two actions to make one of them lose an action by pulling a shorter sword (and his damage going from d8 to d6)
• Retreating and setting up a trap on the run (the bandit ran over the cord).
• Throwing sand in an enemy's eyes. At least the sand worked, though we wondered why exactly it doesn't make the enemy easier to hit, and why the thief who was fighting him now can't backstab a target that doesn't see him.

The adventure being an awful railroad, with everyone being unphazed that the inn has been attacked. Didn't matter that the innkeeper's daughter, whom they probably knew personally, was kidnapped, either.
What mattered was: it was the villagers' day off in the week, and damn them if they could be bothered to trade us supplies on (Sabbat, Shabbat, Sunday or whatever day it was)! Didn't even matter that we had fought off bandits and were planning to attack dangerous brigands who were able to just sneak in and capture a girl.
I hope this was the adventure, but I can't assume it wasn't the GM (who was a university student, so no, he doesn't have the high-school excuse). In fact, it seems likely.

So, if anyone wonders why I was suspicious towards "rulings, not rules" for a long, long time...it was experiences like that one:D!

Yeah, sounds like terrible railroad adveture-itis.

1. Sucker punching should have worked -- at least in attempt, but likely very risky and easily failed one. That's the surprise round. Even if people are tense and with weapons drawn you can still have parley and walk close to each other, even at melee range. The first who breaks parley into surprise attacks would trigger surprise as the GM saw fit.

Granted, since the GM can assign surprise as deemed logical: party group single die roll, party group each individual roll, or only certain individuals roll. Surprise rolls usually only have 30% chance (1-3 on d10), and extenuating circumstances could have factored into such a roll. "It suddenly didn't work and he struck first," is very Hans Solo vs. Greedo revisionism in my eyes.

2. Higher Ground is a mechanical benefit only if the GM uses Group Initiative, Group Modifier style initiative. The party majority must have Higher Ground for it to even work as a group modifier. All the rest, tables, throwing knives, etc. is all about distance from the opponent. Which is a benefit unto itself as it can avoid attacks outright. Where you got this idea about "other bonuses"?, (I thought you said you read all those books above?,) I don't know.

But High Ground is just that, like a table, it's not *that much distance* to keep you safe from harm's reach. And the idea of extra bonuses? What were you expecting from an individual with a 2-3 feet of more height, i.e. within arm's reach? Unless you're dealing with Tiny creatures it wouldn't matter much.

Now using the table as a barrier where the two opponents decide who flinches and moves around first (a la movies), that's doable - but that gets into the fun of initiatlve order, Fog of War, and Held actions. Yes, you're dusty ol' AD&D 2e even has mechanics for that -- and half of them are baked into core.

3. Disarming from Distance. Well, your GM was nice in letting you do so, and thus lends credence to the Adventure Module Nonsense Theory. I would have asked you about the length of your Kusarigama, determined its ranged increments (in fixed indoors terms) and then proceeded to allow you the standard Called Shot Disarm that chain (and almos all weapons) already has. Granted, if you are talking about excessive lengths of chain, we're gonna have a lil' chat.

Since it was an indoors fight, and I'm assuming Kusarigama in excess of 30' chain a rarity, I would have given you a standard indoor 1/2/3 range increment. That would mean up to 10' no to-hit penalty, then 20' -2 to-hit, 30' -5 to-hit. And then with Called Shot another -4 to-hit. So you're looking at -4/-6/-9 to-hit. It should not take two actions unless the opponent was wielding their larger sword/weapon with two hands, so I am assuming two-handed longsword.

As for grabbing their alternate weapon and carrying on with the melee? What the fuck is wrong with that? It's only since 3e have I seen whole parties have ONE LONELY WEAPON ON THEIR PERSON. Didn't even matter if they were martials instead of casters -- ONE LONELY WEAPON ON THEIR PERSON. Not even a ranged weapon to complement their melee, or a melee to complement their ranged. Nope, ONE LONELY WEAPON ON THEIR PERSON. Batshit crazy paradigm to me.

As for your stupendous skill stunning them... If you landed the -9 to-hit, twice in the same round! with your Kusarigama weapon specialization extra attack (alternating every other round, 3/2), from that distance and as a seemingly low level character -- I'd definitely consider a penalized morale check for them. Was the scenario that cool? You did have your fighter take Kusarigama weapon specialization, right? 'Cuz you're very unlikely to single handledly Disarm the two-handed longsword otherwise.

4. Setting up a Snare while On the Run... Challenging. Very challenging. I wouldn't put much stock on its success, either. Just like the Sucker Punching having normally 30% success rate through surprise, I wouldn't be terribly surprised about an ad hoc snare made while running away having a similarly low success rate. You'd be better served with caltrops or overturned furniture getting in the way... and even then, no too much greater % chance success. (50%?).

Are you sure you just don't have unreasonably high theatrical (*cough* cinematic, excuse me *cough*) expectations?

5. First, that's not how Backstab works, and now I know you haven't read the books that thoroughly.

"To use this ability, the thief must be behind his victim and the victim must be unaware that the thief intends to attack him. If an enemy sees the thief, hears him approach from a blind side, or is warned by another, he is not caught unaware, and the backstab is handled like a normal attack (although bonuses for a rear attack still apply)."
(AD&D 2e PHB. p. 40.)

Second, yes, you are right here, it should have made him easier to hit. "Darkness" -- as expanded in the chapter to include various forms of reduced vision, including blindfolds, and thus by extention sand in one's eyes -- affects movement, attack, damage bonuses, saves, and AC. Movement should be reduced down to 1/3 for safe movement (otherwise requiring DEX check), attack, saves, and AC should all suffer -4 (thus logically one's AC goes UP), and damage bonuses should go away.

So, if the rogue did attack him from behind while he was so blinded it wouldn't be a Backstab. But, due to the blindness -4 to AC, and the rear attack +2 to-hit, the rogue should have at least a +6 bonus to land their attack. I think that's the GM not knowing his stuff so well.

The sand in the eyes would have been an opportune time to mess with the opponent to knock them off-balance (+2 to-hit), and even run out of safe traveling range with debris in betwee so as to tempt them to follow unsafely greater than 1/3 speed and take a DEX check to trip. Then everyone gets +4 to-hit as the guy's prone. Or, if you have someone stronger, have them try to shove him down without much risk.

Here, I scribbled up your specialist kusarigama fighter with PHB and CHF. I'm timing myself to see how hard it is.

OK, it took me less than ten minutes. And you got a Kit in the bargain atop it all.

*Edited new additions.
-------------------------------

"Kusarigama Fetishist"
Kit (optional): Peasant Hero
Race: Human
Class: Fighter lvl 1.    
AL: **.  Mv: 12.

*Attributes

Str: 18/94.     +2 atk,  +5 dmg, Wgt Alw 235,  Max (Overhead) Press 480, Open Doors 16(6), BB/LG 35%.
Dex: 13.
Con: 8.      Sys Shock 60%, Rez Surv 65%.
Int: 16.      # Lang (xtra prof, either WP/NWP) 5.
Wis: 12.    
Cha: 6.     Hench Max# 2, Loy Base -3, React Adj -2.

Saves:

PPD 14, RSW 16, Pet/Poly 15, Breath 17, Spell 17

WP (optional):
Kusarigama proficiency. large, slashing or bludgeoning, speed 6, damage 1d4+1/1d4. RoF, as melee. Range 10'/20'/30'.
Kusarigama specialization. (+1 atk, +2 dmg. +0.5 #a, so 3/2 attacks per round.)
Shuriken proficiency. small, piercing, speed 2, damage 1d4/1d4. RoF 2/1. Rng 2/4/6. (*snort* :rolleyes:)
*Dart proficiency. small, piercing, speed 2, damage 1d3/1d2. RoF 3/1. Rng 1/2/4. (for *snort* comparison :rolleyes:)
Martial Arts (Eastern standard for "Punching/Kicking") Specialization. +1 atk, +1 dmg, +/-1 chart shift, extra Martial Art attack per round; may pull damage bonus from strikes to hit for less.

NWP (optional)
Agriculture (kit bonus),
Animal Lore (kit bonus),
*Blindfighting (2 NWP),
*Hunting (1 NWP),
*Leatherworking (1 NWP),
Set Snares (1 NWP),
Tracking (2NWP).

*Gear: Fighters get the most starting gold, 5d4 x10gp, thus min. 50gp.
Kusarigama is essentially sickle+chain, which are 6 sp and 5 sp respectively. Add a few silver for workmanship and metal lump on the end +4 sp... total = 15 silver.

Kusarigama 1.5 gp.

Still have 48.5 gp left for armor and sundries. Hide gives AC 6, two hands would be tied up with kusarigama so no shield.

Hide 15 gp. AC 6.

Still have 33.5 gp for lots of stuff.

Maybe 15 gp for a bucket of shurikens, darts, quivers and cases, ropes for snares, spare kusarigama, etc.

Then leave 15 gp for tent and bivouac sundries, leatherworking supplies, creature comforts, etc.

And last 3.5 gp as petty cash and stashed trade goods in the form of finished leathers and pelts.

Kit Special Benefits: Local peasant community loves you, will always be sheltered there; likely neighboring peasant communities like you as well and will shelter you.

Kit Special Hindrance: Local peasant community sees you as their hero and calls upon you during times of crisis; obliged to help or lose respect in their eyes.

Bio: Peasant Hero, knows about farming and the problems pests can cause for crops. Often was called up for pest eradication duties with tracking and snares, but landed him on a great adventure slaying a dangerous nest of osquip (big rats) and nezumi. Now he's beloved and sees himself as a defender of his down-to-earth people.
------------------------

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;896385Now that brings back memories. I started gaming only about a year later, and in the same general area. (Chatfield resident, rather than Rochester proper--for those of you who don't know the area, Chatfield is one of numerous small farming towns scattered about the area; Rochester is the 'major' urban hub of the region. At the time, it was about 80,000 souls.) So I also prowled Pinnacle when I could get there, although I spent more of my gaming dollars at B.Dalton and Waldenbooks. I still have some of the stuff I bought from there, new and used--the Rolemaster boxed set, Fantasy Hero Companion and Rolemaster Companion VI, used copies of the Ravenloft boxed set and RA1 Feast of Goblyns.

  They went out of business in early '93, right?
 
  Our gaming started as a 1E/2E hybrid, since the father of some friends had played and let them use his 1E PHB. We moved on to full 2E after a few months, with games heavily influenced by computer and NES RPGs. Unfortunately, as pre-teens/early teens of varying backgrounds and levels of maturity, parental beliefs, etc., the group fractured and I actually moved into an anti-D&D phase for about a year. I never did really rejoin that circle of friends that much (partially for that, partially for being placed in advanced classes), which is part of why so much of my gaming has been theoretical or 'armchair' for long stretches.

Bit of nostalgia - I moved from Rochester to the Twin Cities in '75, and fell in with Bad Company...

Quote from: CRKrueger;896367Well, someone comes to me and says they want a "skirmisher with a kusarigama", we're going to have a talk, because they obviously are coming with some very specific ideas in mind.  Someone who thinks "skirmisher with a kusarigama" I can guarantee you doesn't have in mind "skirmisher with a kusarigama" at First Level. (Holy Shit the classic Smileys are back, WOOHOO, thanks Brett.)

Why? He pitched the game as "play whatever hero you wanted to play". I just wanted a skirmisher, and a kusarigama is just another weapon proficiency from a supplement that I picked because I liked all the options it gave me. Since the class we ended up creating had access to all weapons (but not all armours, there were other trade-offs as well - which never saw play), I don't see what seems so wrong about a kusarigama.
In fact, the GM almost asked me to pick something with a smaller damage die, because I'd rolled only a few points short of 18/00, when we rolled characters, and thus had a huge damage bonus. Kusarigamas had 1d6 damage and IIRC he was worried that me picking a big weapon on top of that would have overshadowed most other characters.

QuoteThat having been said, it sounds like a painfully bad GM.  Simple stat checks would have made a big difference there in a lot of cases, also the GM makes the mistake of judging the character's motivation and not going by a good rule of thumb "if the player fooled you, they probably fooled the NPC too".

I tend to agree with that impression. The group splintered after a total of 2 sessions because everyone had issues with the GMing, too (and most of the players in it failed to keep up with RPGs in general).
I quit earlier after the GM decided that some dog gets to ignore one of the special features of my newly-constructed class. To an extent that was a mistake - I didn't get to see him crying when the thieves splattered some Giant Spider or similar (which was, I supposed, to chase them on the railroad:D).

Quote from: Opaopajr;896491Sounds mostly like an adventure module issue with a green (or poorly rules-savvy) GM.

Well, he claimed not being either.

QuoteAbout the kusarigama -- that's dirt easy, that's an adapted Chain weapon in Complete Fighter Handbook (the Fighter's Options, you said).

Kusarigama is a lenght of chain with a lump on one end and a sickle on the other.

By PHB and CFH alone:
* Sickles are small, slashing, Speed 4, damage 1d4+1 (lg mob: 1d4) weapons.
* Chains are large, bludgeoning, Speed 5, damage 1d4+1 (lg mob: 1d4) weapons. They also allow Called Shots: Disarm, Parry, Strike/Thrust. And they have 3 of 5 of the Lasso special attacks: Pull/Trip by attacking target's legs, Dismount a Rider, and Snag a Rider's Head.

* Kusarigama is a combination of the two. The damage is the same between both of the above, and speed factor is almost the same. All I would do is insist it was a two-handed weapon, deals bludgeoning or slashing (decide beforehand), and Speed 5 or maybe 6 (if you even use Weapon Speeds). Then give me its specific chain length in feet and I determine its range increments from there. And it gets the above Chain functions for Called Shots and Special Attacks. Ta-dah, done.

Exactly. I seem to remember it was a 1d6/1d6 weapon (no bonus for larger opponents), as per the Complete book I found it in. And of course, I didn't even try to imagine it as a one-handed weapon.

QuoteOr were you looking to cheese the system a bit more by snowing the GM with bullshit?

If I did, it has been because my younger self didn't know it was bullshit:).

QuoteYou're pure, like an angel, of this I am sure!

Me;)?

One thing is for sure, I didn't try to cheat at games by claiming bullshit.

QuoteI remember being young and impressionable by terrible chop sockey flicks of the 1980s...

We all have been. And I'd just started martial arts practice:p!

QuoteRemember, regardless of Eastern weapon fetishization of that time, katanas are just long swords by another name -- not the higher damage powerhouses in their D&D statline. And similarly it's easy to take the same tack to rewording weapons that were essentially not all that different. As a GM, I don't play that power inflation game -- I know better.

Well, the matter never came up. I was into Chinese weapons at the time, so katanas didn't interest me.
But since I decided that the rules for dual-wielding suck, I didn't go that way, either. But I liked all the options a kusarigama obviously allows, and there was a fun opponent using one in a gamebook. Thus, my weapon choice.

QuoteYeah, sounds like terrible railroad adveture-itis.

Well, that was my point as well.

Quote1. Sucker punching should have worked -- at least in attempt, but likely very risky and easily failed one. That's the surprise round. Even if people are tense and with weapons drawn you can still have parley and walk close to each other, even at melee range. The first who breaks parley into surprise attacks would trigger surprise as the GM saw fit.

Granted, since the GM can assign surprise as deemed logical: party group single die roll, party group each individual roll, or only certain individuals roll. Surprise rolls usually only have 30% chance (1-3 on d10), and extenuating circumstances could have factored into such a roll. "It suddenly didn't work and he struck first," is very Hans Solo vs. Greedo revisionism in my eyes.

Well, it was revisionism in my eyes as well (though I'm not sure what you're referring to - Greedo was sucker-shot).

Quote2. Higher Ground is a mechanical benefit only if the GM uses Group Initiative, Group Modifier style initiative. The party majority must have Higher Ground for it to even work as a group modifier. All the rest, tables, throwing knives, etc. is all about distance from the opponent. Which is a benefit unto itself as it can avoid attacks outright. Where you got this idea about "other bonuses"?, (I thought you said you read all those books above?,) I don't know.

"Other bonuses" means "not my character, not sure what the rules there were".

QuoteBut High Ground is just that, like a table, it's not *that much distance* to keep you safe from harm's reach. And the idea of extra bonuses? What were you expecting from an individual with a 2-3 feet of more height, i.e. within arm's reach? Unless you're dealing with Tiny creatures it wouldn't matter much.

Certainly not range protecting him!
But a bonus to hit given that shooting downwards is almost universally easier would have made sense, IMO. Again, not my character.

QuoteNow using the table as a barrier where the two opponents decide who flinches and moves around first (a la movies), that's doable - but that gets into the fun of initiatlve order, Fog of War, and Held actions. Yes, you're dusty ol' AD&D 2e even has mechanics for that -- and half of them are baked into core.

Not what was attempted, so no comment.

Quote3. Disarming from Distance. Well, your GM was nice in letting you do so, and thus lends credence to the Adventure Module Nonsense Theory. I would have asked you about the length of your Kusarigama, determined its ranged increments (in fixed indoors terms) and then proceeded to allow you the standard Called Shot Disarm that chain (and almos all weapons) already has. Granted, if you are talking about excessive lengths of chain, we're gonna have a lil' chat.

It was kama-sickle, weight, and I was attempting it at 10' (entangling the weapon hand with the weight).

QuoteSince it was an indoors fight, and I'm assuming Kusarigama in excess of 30' chain a rarity, I would have given you a standard indoor 1/2/3 range increment. That would mean up to 10' no to-hit penalty, then 20' -2 to-hit, 30' -5 to-hit. And then with Called Shot another -4 to-hit. So you're looking at -4/-6/-9 to-hit. It should not take two actions unless the opponent was wielding their larger sword/weapon with two hands, so I am assuming two-handed longsword.

Wrong - it was one-handed weapon. Two actions was due to me missing the entangle on the first round, and were taken in two rounds.

QuoteAs for grabbing their alternate weapon and carrying on with the melee? What the fuck is wrong with that?

The fact that nobody had seen them having anything bigger than a knife was the problem, not that they had it.
Potentially fun fact, I'm almost sure only that guy had a spare weapon that we found after the fight - though I'm not going to swear on that. But I remember we found leather armour, and one weapon per person. Except, of course, for the guy I'd been trying to disarm.

QuoteIt's only since 3e have I seen whole parties have ONE LONELY WEAPON ON THEIR PERSON. Didn't even matter if they were martials instead of casters -- ONE LONELY WEAPON ON THEIR PERSON. Not even a ranged weapon to complement their melee, or a melee to complement their ranged. Nope, ONE LONELY WEAPON ON THEIR PERSON. Batshit crazy paradigm to me.

Seems like those bandits were from the 3e Monster Manual.
Also, I'm almost sure I was the only one in our OD&D party, (years later, in a forum game) who owned and used more than one weapon. Make of that what you will, but I was the one with the least experience with Old School games.

QuoteAs for your stupendous skill stunning them... If you landed the -9 to-hit, twice in the same round! with your Kusarigama weapon specialization extra attack (alternating every other round, 3/2), from that distance and as a seemingly low level character -- I'd definitely consider a penalized morale check for them. Was the scenario that cool? You did have your fighter take Kusarigama weapon specialization, right? 'Cuz you're very unlikely to single handledly Disarm the two-handed longsword otherwise.

Nope, I didn't optimize. The GM believed my to-hit bonus was too big already as it was, and I wanted different styles of martial arts, so we agreed on that. Still, in a fight, most people don't try to disarm, because it fails easily. Anyone that can pull it from a distance is someone you don't want to bother with.

Quote4. Setting up a Snare while On the Run... Challenging. Very challenging. I wouldn't put much stock on its success, either. Just like the Sucker Punching having normally 30% success rate through surprise, I wouldn't be terribly surprised about an ad hoc snare made while running away having a similarly low success rate. You'd be better served with caltrops or overturned furniture getting in the way... and even then, no too much greater % chance success. (50%?).

There might have been some roll, but if there was, he made it, don't remeber. If therewas,he'd madeit, because I remember he constructed the trap (which was just a tripping cord across a doorway). Then the bandit just jumped over, not even noticing it.
If that makes sense to you, so be it.

QuoteAre you sure you just don't have unreasonably high theatrical (*cough* cinematic, excuse me *cough*) expectations?

Newbie players having unreasonable expectations? After being told that a 1st level character is a competent member of the profession?
Perish the thought!

Quote5. First, that's not how Backstab works, and now I know you haven't read the books that thoroughly.

"To use this ability, the thief must be behind his victim and the victim must be unaware that the thief intends to attack him. If an enemy sees the thief, hears him approach from a blind side, or is warned by another, he is not caught unaware, and the backstab is handled like a normal attack (although bonuses for a rear attack still apply)."
(AD&D 2e PHB. p. 40.)

Of course I haven't read backstab. I had exactly zero doubts that I'd be playing a fighting man class:D!
Thing is, the group expected backstab to work more like Sneak Attack, which can work if you're denied your Dex bonus due to surprise or misdirection, or stuff (in some people's reading, at least).
The point was moot, since the guy didn't hit him until after the sand's effect went away. Then he hit him with a very high roll, and rolled maximum damage, and dropped him, so at least that was amusing.

QuoteSecond, yes, you are right here, it should have made him easier to hit. "Darkness" -- as expanded in the chapter to include various forms of reduced vision, including blindfolds, and thus by extention sand in one's eyes -- affects movement, attack, damage bonuses, saves, and AC. Movement should be reduced down to 1/3 for safe movement (otherwise requiring DEX check), attack, saves, and AC should all suffer -4 (thus logically one's AC goes UP), and damage bonuses should go away.

Well, only the attack was penalised;).

QuoteSo, if the rogue did attack him from behind while he was so blinded it wouldn't be a Backstab. But, due to the blindness -4 to AC, and the rear attack +2 to-hit, the rogue should have at least a +6 bonus to land their attack. I think that's the GM not knowing his stuff so well.

Possibly.

QuoteThe sand in the eyes would have been an opportune time to mess with the opponent to knock them off-balance (+2 to-hit), and even run out of safe traveling range with debris in betwee so as to tempt them to follow unsafely greater than 1/3 speed and take a DEX check to trip. Then everyone gets +4 to-hit as the guy's prone. Or, if you have someone stronger, have them try to shove him down without much risk.

True, but the guy was acting on the simpler paradigm "I have a short sword, and an enemy who can't see the blade".

And to quote the edit in my previous post, in the end the battle was resolved when I said "screw tactics". Then I proceeded to slash the closer one with the kama, and then bashed the one who was attacking the druid with the weight from a distance, dropping half of them in less time than I'd spent trying to inconvenience them (due to my damage bonus, they couldn't even withstand a single attack).
Which was, frankly, not the message I'd want to send to a group of newbies, but it seemed that that was what the GM was expecting and rewarding. Still not sure why, except maybe because HP damage has extensive rules.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;896505Bit of nostalgia - I moved from Rochester to the Twin Cities in '75, and fell in with Bad Company...

You werent the one that offed my magic user were you? ooooh! :mad: