Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1130967Not the least of the charges against it is that it abuses the hell out of some perfectly fine words, making them difficult to use by a normal person in any kind of conversation about gaming.  GNS is one of those rare cases where it would have been preferable for the makers of the jargon to have made up their own words instead of abusing existing ones.

Look 4e is a perfecly fine grape.

Quote from: David Johansen;1130975Yeah, me too, and GURPS Vehicles for that matter.  Neither one of them is as bad as people say.

One of my players looooooves gurps vehicles.

These days simulationist  is almost as meaningless as fascist and almost as derogatory.  But any way here is a whole bunch hard to pick which  Harnmaster, Runequest, Other Suns, GURPS, Twilight 2000, Aftermath, Dragonquest, The Morrow Project, Delta Force, Powers & Perils, Ringworld, Phoenix Command and Millennium's End.  The one I have wanted to play/run is Freedom Fighters now that would really melt the eyeballs  and trigger the usual suspects.

Here is a character sheet.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4488[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]4489[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4490[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]4491[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4492[/ATTACH]

Ive heard people say a character sheet looks like a tax form before, but that one really does.

Quote from: jeff37923;1130968Funny, I was able to design ships using just pencil, paper, and calculator with Fire, Fusion, and Steel.

I bow to your greater degree of autism then.

Quote from: ShasarakImagine you wanted to play a scene from a movie where all of the guards jump on top of Arnold and then he stands up and throws them all off. I think would be pretty difficult in every other version of DnD without getting the DM buy in and yet you can do that by the book in 4e. Come and Get It is definitely simulating that movie scene.

Quote from: S'mon;1130958I have a weird feeling that in GNS theory terms, Shasarak is right!

GNS Gamism is 'challenge the player' orientation, where Simulation is "exploring the dream" and covers movie-emulation as well as what most people would call simulation.  So OD&D is Gamist but there is certainly an argument 4e is primarily Simulationist per GNS.

(GNS is a really bad 'theory').

In practice, people generally use "simulationist" roughly as it is defined by the rec.games.frp.advocacy Threefold Model -- not the way that Ron Edwards later tried to redefine it.

Under the Threefold Model, it's about trying to simulate the game world as an internally consistent setting, and movie emulation would be covered under dramatism.

Quote from: jhkim;1131177In practice, people generally use "simulationist" roughly as it is defined by the rec.games.frp.advocacy Threefold Model -- not the way that Ron Edwards later tried to redefine it.

Under the Threefold Model, it's about trying to simulate the game world as an internally consistent setting, and movie emulation would be covered under dramatism.

Yeah, I know - but Shasarak was specifically referencing GNS. 4e is Dramatist under GDS I agree. While most people tend to call 4e Gamist because it "feels Gamey" with all the power cards and eschewal of world-simulation.

Quote from: Hakdov;1131093I bow to your greater degree of autism then.

OK, that made me chuckle. I do get pretty single-minded when I design something.

Did anyone here try the Living Steel RPG? When people mention Phoenix Command (including myself), I get the impression that there might have been a misunderstanding. Isn't PC just a supplement to Living Steel?

I stand by my contention that nobody wants a game that truly simulates reality. Because then you might have to roleplay stories like this one.

[video=youtube;UTVKh77kiRY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTVKh77kiRY[/youtube]

Quote from: Trond;1131363Did anyone here try the Living Steel RPG? When people mention Phoenix Command (including myself), I get the impression that there might have been a misunderstanding. Isn't PC just a supplement to Living Steel?

No. If anything, it's the other way around; Living Steel's combat system is based on a simplified version of PC, using only the first set of penetration numbers (not taking into account PEN drop off for range), and adding a skill system (since PC is really just combat rules), as well as a really in-depth design and building/repairing system (shocking how those engineers got into that...).

In further answer.. yes, I've played both, and run Living Steel both in its original form, and in a different form I modified to use d20's instead of d%, because my group at the time were very much familiar with d20, and not as comfortable with d%. I enjoyed running it, and it made a lot of sense to me. In function, it's not much different from running any other game.. about the same level of complexity as Cyberpunk 2020, with the same quantity of dice rolling for the basic combat format.

Now, if you delve into the advanced PC rules.. all bets are off, but if you really want to know if your laser penetrated through the guy's spleen or his liver, it's the game for you.  With the advent of computer-based dice rollers as a common accessory, the annoying large-volume rolls aren't as bad either (for instance, the d10,000 hit location tables in Advanced PC).

Quote from: Panzerkraken;1131396No. If anything, it's the other way around; Living Steel's combat system is based on a simplified version of PC, using only the first set of penetration numbers (not taking into account PEN drop off for range), and adding a skill system (since PC is really just combat rules), as well as a really in-depth design and building/repairing system (shocking how those engineers got into that...).

In further answer.. yes, I've played both, and run Living Steel both in its original form, and in a different form I modified to use d20's instead of d%, because my group at the time were very much familiar with d20, and not as comfortable with d%. I enjoyed running it, and it made a lot of sense to me. In function, it's not much different from running any other game.. about the same level of complexity as Cyberpunk 2020, with the same quantity of dice rolling for the basic combat format.

Now, if you delve into the advanced PC rules.. all bets are off, but if you really want to know if your laser penetrated through the guy's spleen or his liver, it's the game for you.  With the advent of computer-based dice rollers as a common accessory, the annoying large-volume rolls aren't as bad either (for instance, the d10,000 hit location tables in Advanced PC).

Sounds cool actually. I hear that the rules are actually an interesting read. I often used a programmed calculator back in the day, so I guess I could just program it to roll a random 1-10 000 number

I always feel like Howard Hughes flying the Spruce Goose when I run anything that would fit this thread. ha