What do you consider the essential aspects of a dungeon fantasy game? For the purposes of this thread, I define Dungeon Fantasy as at the very least an exploration of the subgenre created by D&D. Games that typify it include D&D in its many iterations, Pathfinder, all the retro clones, Dungeon World, and GURPS Dungeon Fantasy. I do realize that no one here needed that explanation, but it felt right to write it.

For your money, what makes this genre work? Are there certain sacred cows that need to be included or addressed? Do the specific mechanics make one Dungeon Fantasy game better than another, or do they even matter at all as long as you achieve the flavor of the genre?

I ask because I have my own opinions, and am about to try to create one of these games of my own as part of a challenge with a friend of mine. We have both published game materials, and we rather strongly disagree about the finer points of what makes these games work, even though we agree on the broad strokes. We're each going to create our own versions of a simplified "Ultimate D&D", even if mine in particular won't strictly be a form of D&D.  I was hoping to see what this community in particular thinks, as it might help me refine my beliefs on the topic before I start writing.

A bit later, I'll probably chime in with my positions, but I don't want to poison the well or derail possible discussion with my possibly controversial ideas at this point.

Thanks in advance.

Someone mentioned this Joseph Campbell quote a while ago, and I think it sums things up pretty well: 'The cave you fear to enter holds the treasure you seek.'

And that's the thing about dungeons - you don't know what is in them. It could be anything. I mean, okay, in many cases it's going to be the same old stuff: goblins, giant rats, spiders, skeletons, but often a lot of weird stuff as well that you can't predict.

I think at the most basic level, the primacy of the dungeon is because it gives the DM & players a finite area to explore, complete with a (relatively) unchanging and therefore stable roster of challenges - traps, monsters, riddles etc.

and that's the basis of the dungeon - traps, monsters, riddles in a finite and predictable environment.

For me, the danger of the descent into the unknown intensified by the scarceness of resources. Resource management (torches, ropes, poles, rations, even spells) is key to Dungeon Fantasy.

A Dungeon is a setting that a maze with rooms filled with monsters, treasures, and other interesting things. Like any setting you can do whatever you want with it.

Quote from: JeremyR;793509Someone mentioned this Joseph Campbell quote a while ago, and I think it sums things up pretty well: 'The cave you fear to enter holds the treasure you seek.'

And that's the thing about dungeons - you don't know what is in them. It could be anything. I mean, okay, in many cases it's going to be the same old stuff: goblins, giant rats, spiders, skeletons, but often a lot of weird stuff as well that you can't predict.

I definitely think the close mapping of the classic dungeon adventure to Campbell's Hero's Journey is significant. It appeals to something deep in the id.

Quote from: JeremyR;793509Someone mentioned this Joseph Campbell quote a while ago, and I think it sums things up pretty well: 'The cave you fear to enter holds the treasure you seek.'

And that's the thing about dungeons - you don't know what is in them. It could be anything. I mean, okay, in many cases it's going to be the same old stuff: goblins, giant rats, spiders, skeletons, but often a lot of weird stuff as well that you can't predict.

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Seriously, that Campbell quote pretty much explains everything.

Quote from: Monster Manuel;793504For your money, what makes this genre work? Are there certain sacred cows that need to be included or addressed? Do the specific mechanics make one Dungeon Fantasy game better than another, or do they even matter at all as long as you achieve the flavor of the genre?

I think the question is more interesting if we get specific about wide variations in the genre. Everyone is pretty familiar with what classic dungeon fantasy is like. The curious thing is how far you can change it and still be in the genre.

For example, I had planned a D&D campaign that took from post-apocalyptic genre like zombie survival.  The PCs go down into dungeons not to loot them, but rather to find a safe refuge for themselves and a bunch of NPC survivors they are guarding.

Along another tack, what if the PCs are recruiters for an evil overlord? They come into the dungeon to talk to different monsters and make them offers and/or capture them for their gang.

Or consider a dream genre related to the films Inception or The Cell...  The PCs are going through a psychic dungeon that has various challenges but also connects to their own or someone else's psyche.

Quote from: estar;793524A Dungeon is a setting that a maze with rooms filled with monsters, treasures, and other interesting things. Like any setting you can do whatever you want with it.

That's how I see it too.

And I don't see why the genre of "Dungeon Fantasy" shouldn't be drawn a little wider than the OP suggests.

Here's an AP report from a short Dungeon Fantasy game in the extended sense, which I absolutely loved:-

http://www.ukroleplayers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=14190#p152634

What was going on? Sure, we were looking for treasure in a scary cave, but it was mostly the intra-party dynamics. In fact, it was mostly chaos. And I found the experience highly immersive.

In addition to a dungeon's mythological resonance, something which I ascribe too as well, they are also extremely practical for gaming; dungeons are a controlled and defined space that supports ongoing episodic play and a troupe of ever changing players/characters. They are a very resilient basis for a campaign.

I'd agree with what's already been posted.

What makes the genre work for me? What are the essentials?

1. Mystery, filling out the map. I like looking at good dungeon maps and having the place slowly filled in. What's behind that door? What is down those stairs? I hear water flowing, where is the underground river? Where did this dungeon come from? Is it a castle built by Orcs 50 years ago or an old Dwarven mine dug out and abandoned 500 years ago?

2. Figuring out the mystery of the scenario. Who are these bad guys? Who do they work for? What are their ultimate plans? Where is the McGuffin I'm in pursuit of?

3. Saving the town. Personally, I like being the big hero. Here is a town/village/community in danger from the bad guys. We heroes have to ban together and wipe out the threat, take the heat off of the good guys. The local lord wants to expand his territory but can't due to the monsters in the woods and ruins? Right, we'll go in and clean out the beasts and evil wizard. Done, now you can push the boarders out another 20 miles, build a couple forts out there, some new villages.

4. Sometimes it's just the small stuff. Finding a painting of the King's ancestor which has been lost for 200 years, let's take it out of this pit of dirt and horror and present it to him. Here's a mystical magical item lost for 400 years, once again brought out to shine in the light of the sun. There are eight magical cups that belong in a set, the King has 5 of them, we've just found #6, he'll be happy. Legend tells of a famous adventurer who disappeared long ago, wonder whatever happened to him? Well, here are his bones and last diary.

5. At the end of the day, or the campaign, I want to know that I made a difference. An invading nation has been stopped and peace comes to the land. Society is strengthened and expanded by my efforts. Mankind, or a portion thereof, is set on the path to righteousness and dominance. Progress has been made.

Outcasts, losers, criminals, and scum who can't get or hold real jobs buy some rusty armor and cheap surplus swords and go into a dark place that normal people fear. Most die. Some eventually become godlike warlords and wizards.

The "Mythic Underworld". The dungeon is it's own world, it's own thing, with it's own rules. Tolkein's orcs fight alongside one of Burroughs' Martian White Apes. "Ecology", and reason take a back seat to magic pools, absurd traps, cool treasures, anachronisms, cheap surrealism and teen-age male humor. The surface operates by the logic of a world, down here things operate by the logic of a sick game.

Hirelings and retainers.

Players beaming with genuine pride that they went to some infamous level and made it out alive.

The PCs' most treasured possession not being any of their magic items but rather the crude map of the dungeon's first level that they made slowly, room by room, over dozens of nights of play.  

A weird mix of adventure, horror, and broad comedy.

Who dares wins.

Dorky yet terrifying monsters (Owlbears).

Rescue missions to go back and get bodies so they can be Raised.

I think there are two crucial elements for dungeon fantasy games.

The unnaturalness of the setting supports all the game elements you could need; anything can be there, and anything else as close as you want.  A more realistic setting either settles into sameness or involves such large distances that the party is never pressured (e.g., recover all hit points and spells between any two fights).  So, you can do whatever the game needs as a game.

But dungeons or underground caves or the underworld are familiar enough from the fantasy genre that making the game work doesn't spoil the feel of it.

Good question.

Dungeon fantasy, as opposed to fantasy world, for me is about exploring the dungeons, these weird underground strongholds.

Also the element of delving ever deeper, and the deeper you get the worse things get.

Also the mystery of it all. Sometimes the delve is about rediscovering this lost place. But also the excursions into totally unknown halls and corridors. The traps and treasure and puzzles.

And sometimes it covers the very desire to find gold and magic items. But not allways. That seems more the individual groups aegis. Others delve to clear and reclaim. Or just for explorations sake.

And sometimes the thrill of meeting strange new races friendly or more often not.

In a way Dungeon Fantasy is Star Trek underground.

Explore strange new dungeons, seek out new races, and boldly delve where no adventurer has delved before.

I actually agree with a lot of what everyone has said.

I do think that dungeon fantasy involves delving into actual dungeons as its primary concern, whether those dungeons be traditional caves and structures, or even metaphysical representations as John Kim suggested.

But I think that part of the genre is *leaving* the dungeon and seeing what's between them. I actually include upper world adventures in the genre, because no matter what happens there, you'll inevitably go back to a dungeon.  The larger world is an extrapolation and support system of the dungeon. In some campaigns its a logical reason for things like monster migrations between dungeons, and in others it represents a return to sanity after the insanity that a dungeon adventure represents- you always know that just under the surface there lurks something inexplicable.

I think BECMI did it best, possibly ignoring the "I" aspect. You start out as someone who spends all of their adventuring time in dungeons, then begin to explore the world outside on the way from dungeon to dungeon, then you perhaps get to claim some land that has its own dungeons, and finally have the choice to expand to dungeons that are out there on the planes.

The dungeon is the keystone of the genre, but I wouldn't say that it has to limit it.