Quote from: DeadUematsu;1135457Ah, you play PF! Now I know you're pulling my chain.

Edit: To be clear, I am not calling you liars BUT your experiences are very hard to believe.

If your going to call myself and others liars have the stones to do so. Seriously "I am not saying your a liar or anything but I don't believe you", is imo the same thing.

Quote from: DeadUematsu;1135471In the context of the campaign, it wasn't useless. Let me be clear, you guys are trying to convince me that there are people who go in full-tilt deliberately and non-cooperatively throwing in knowingly useless characters against the known parameters of the campaign as some sort of stance and I simply don't buy it. I think there's a lot of revisionist history going on and that's okay if you want to prove a point to someone on the fence but goddamn is that not going to convince me to ignore my own experiences over the last twenty odd years. Powergamers, min-maxers, munchkins, doesn't matter, have, for me, proven themselves to be socially retarded, if not malicious, when not monitored and the proposed anti-thesis of them from a couple of dudes on the internet doesn't change that.

Ah I see it's time for the all powerful carefully constructed personal narrative. Anything and everything that goes against said narrative does not exist. No matter if 5, 10 or 15 people say they have experienced the same thing they are all "liars". Let me clear thankfully my experiences were rare yet it seems that occasionally gamers are struck with this weird impulse to try and do exactly that. Why I do not know. Either because as a DM or player they had a bad experience with a powegamer. Or they hate power gamers and want to show them how it's done with the complete opposite of a powergamer.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1135477I've encountered useless players, but never useless characters.

Hand me the most useless character at the table, and I'll play the PC to the hilt and be useful in the game, even if the mechanics of the character are sub-optimal.

That is the difference you accept and acknowledge the characters and flaws and even then make the best of it. Unlike others I have seen who would then complain about it.

I have never seen it IRL but I have heard of Players rocking up to a DnD game with their "Pacifist" characters.

That would get annoying real fast.

Quote from: Shasarak;1135483I have never seen it IRL but I have heard of Players rocking up to a DnD game with their "Pacifist" characters.

That would get annoying real fast.

One of the reasons why I ban ewoks from my Star Wars games is because having a race in a technological setting that is at an automatic disadvantage with technology makes about as much sense as a pacifist fighter. The couple of times that I allowed ewoks before banning them, I'd warn the Player what they were getting into, they'd find their character unable to do most of the things that the other characters could do, and then they would whine that their characters were useless. Not responsible for advice not taken.

Quote from: sureshot;1135481That is the difference you accept and acknowledge the characters and flaws and even then make the best of it. Unlike others I have seen who would then complain about it.

There's no whining at my table.

Or perhaps better put, whining brings these clowns nothing but mockery at my table.

My "online persona" is my offline persona.

Quote from: Shasarak;1135483I have never seen it IRL but I have heard of Players rocking up to a DnD game with their "Pacifist" characters. That would get annoying real fast.

And by annoying, you mean awesome? Because as GM, I'd be laughing my ass off.

Remember what happened to Burke in Aliens when he fled the field of battle? Yeah baby...

Quote from: Shasarak;1135483I have never seen it IRL but I have heard of Players rocking up to a DnD game with their "Pacifist" characters.

That would get annoying real fast.

Tiamat suddenly swoops down from the sky and eats their character!!!

"Yeah, too bad about your character man...."

Quote from: jeff37923;1135492One of the reasons why I ban ewoks from my Star Wars games is because having a race in a technological setting that is at an automatic disadvantage with technology makes about as much sense as a pacifist fighter.

Back when D20 Star Wars came out, I would only play Gungans...because I'm an asshole! So much freaking fun! Then GMs at the local conventions starting banning Gungans because for some unknown reason.

I've played an Ewok in D6 Star Wars and they're awesome! He was a psychotic teddy bear cannibal with stealth and cuteness! And he carried a thermal detonator that he'd throw like a rock. Scared the hell out of most enemies when they got clocked and saw a bomb at their feet. Our engineer rigged it so it made sounds and flashes, but couldn't explode. So throwing it back at him just let him clock you with it again!

Quote from: jeff37923;1135492One of the reasons why I ban ewoks from my Star Wars games is because having a race in a technological setting that is at an automatic disadvantage with technology makes about as much sense as a pacifist fighter. The couple of times that I allowed ewoks before banning them, I'd warn the Player what they were getting into, they'd find their character unable to do most of the things that the other characters could do, and then they would whine that their characters were useless. Not responsible for advice not taken.

I want to eventually play one as a master of blowing stuff up as the have the Demolition Skill. The only skill restrictions are Vehicle, Starship and repair Skills. The Bow skill can replace a blaster.

Weird choice to take if they wanted to have access to everything the rest of the players have. The template for Ewoks make them to be experts as scouts.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1135497Back when D20 Star Wars came out, I would only play Gungans...because I'm an asshole! So much freaking fun! Then GMs at the local conventions starting banning Gungans because for some unknown reason.

Probably because of JarJar and players trying to sound like they do in the movies

Quote from: Spinachcat;1135497I've played an Ewok in D6 Star Wars and they're awesome! He was a psychotic teddy bear cannibal with stealth and cuteness! And he carried a thermal detonator that he'd throw like a rock. Scared the hell out of most enemies when they got clocked and saw a bomb at their feet. Our engineer rigged it so it made sounds and flashes, but couldn't explode. So throwing it back at him just let him clock you with it again!

Seconded they make excellent scouts and being able to use explosvies is an added bonus.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1135493And by annoying, you mean awesome? Because as GM, I'd be laughing my ass off.

Speaking of annoying, Players who get their characters to do stupid things in combat like running and hiding because "that is what my character would do".

Quote from: Spinachcat;1135493There's no whining at my table.

Or perhaps better put, whining brings these clowns nothing but mockery at my table.

My "online persona" is my offline persona.

If I do a bad call at the table point it out to me as the person running the game. When a player is warned ahead of time his character choices will make it so they have a bad time during the game, while politely telling me to mond my own business is on them.  

Quote from: Spinachcat;1135493And by annoying, you mean awesome? Because as GM, I'd be laughing my ass off.

Remember what happened to Burke in Aliens when he fled the field of battle? Yeah baby...

I am not out to kill a character I also do not baby the player character either. Another game not my own where the DM allowed a Drow and told the player during session Zero that he would suffer a decent amount of discrimination as the campaign was set in the Forgotten Realms. Instead ignored the DM and expected that all NPCs and the DM would give him a pass on hatred from the Drow because as he put it " Im a good Drow like Drizzt". The DM was going to factor on his reputation ad doing good deeds over time. No the player wanted to be treated like Drizzt and when he was not accused the SM of being a racist as the player was a black person. Yeah so racist when the DM is not only gay he at the time had a black boyfriend.

You can't fix stupid.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1135497I've played an Ewok in D6 Star Wars and they're awesome! He was a psychotic teddy bear cannibal with stealth and cuteness! And he carried a thermal detonator that he'd throw like a rock. Scared the hell out of most enemies when they got clocked and saw a bomb at their feet. Our engineer rigged it so it made sounds and flashes, but couldn't explode. So throwing it back at him just let him clock you with it again!

Quote from: sureshot;1135498I want to eventually play one as a master of blowing stuff up as the have the Demolition Skill. The only skill restrictions are Vehicle, Starship and repair Skills. The Bow skill can replace a blaster.

Weird choice to take if they wanted to have access to everything the rest of the players have. The template for Ewoks make them to be experts as scouts.

Seconded they make excellent scouts and being able to use explosvies is an added bonus.

Which really makes sense when the rest of the Players decided at the start of the campaign to be bounty hunters or smugglers or Rebel starfighter pilots.....

Honestly easier to just say, "No ewoks or gungans". Otherwise I end up spending too much time with a special snowflake Player and their character.

ewoks are the kender of star wars.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1135509You can't fix stupid.

As recent events have demonstrated, turns out you can't quarantine it, either.

I have a love/hate relationship with power gaming behavior.  When it is the stereotypical scraping every edge of every rules lawyer case and then arguing the case in game--and then trying to twist the same rule another way next time--I hate it.  Yeah, that's bad behavior that is more than just the power gaming, which goes to show that asshole power gaming is just one more way for the asshole to try to wreck things for everyone else.

When the power gamer just gets a deep satisfaction out of tinkering with the mechanics, so much so that they'll happily help any casual player in the room that wants it and happily leave the player alone if they don't--all within the spirit of the rules, then I don't mind it at all. When the power gamer recognizes that they are more interested in this stuff than anyone else at the table so that they channel that instinct by trying to make a difficult to pull off concept work just as well as a normal character?  Or play a character that is deliberately under-powered mechanically but challenge themselves to make it work?  Love those players.  You'll note that their first instinct is to make the game fun for the whole group.

Quote from: sureshot;1135481If your going to call myself and others liars have the stones to do so. Seriously "I am not saying your a liar or anything but I don't believe you", is imo the same thing.

Quote from: sureshot;1135481Anything and everything that goes against said narrative does not exist. No matter if 5, 10 or 15 people say they have experienced the same thing they are all "liars".

No, I'm not going to call you a liar but I will call you a shitbrain and tell you to fuck off when I'm done with your dumb ass. I don't know you personally (besides you being a dumb fuck) but I know a lot of people love to play off hearsay as personal experience or make up bullshit to support their argument so while I didn't call you a liar, based on my experience, I find it hard to believe because it hasn't happened to me. Now, shitbrain, fuck off.

Quote from: DeadUematsu;1135563No, I'm not going to call you a liar but I will call you a shitbrain and tell you to fuck off when I'm done with your dumb ass. I don't know you personally (besides you being a dumb fuck) but I know a lot of people love to play off hearsay as personal experience or make up bullshit to support their argument so while I didn't call you a liar, based on my experience, I find it hard to believe because it hasn't happened to me. Now, shitbrain, fuck off.

Ah, ad hominem.

The last refuge of those who've already lost the argument.

Or in this case, never had one to begin with. And still don't.