One game that I've played that claims to be OSR, but isn't, would be the Black Hack set of games.  I've played The Anime Hack.

It's like that joke about your grandpa's old axe.  Years ago the handle was replaced.  Last year, you replaced the head.  But, you still call it your grandpa's axe. 

Once you've changed the majority of D&D rules, is it D&D anymore?  I'll be the first to say that it's tough to know.  It's a subjective thing, as changing even one bit of the rules means it's not the same anymore. 

Quote from: RebelSky on June 25, 2022, 01:48:11 PM
OSR is not limited to just D&D clones. There are more than enough non D&D OSR rpgs now to prove that sentiment wrong.

Serious question: Why?

What is the demarcation line? I honestly don't know. Like I said - my own observations as an outsider seems to indicate any RPG or system made before 3e. Is that wrong?

Technically if OSR means Renaissance then the rediscovery of AD&D and D&D should count them as OSR games as the renaissance was the rediscovery as well as adaptation of old techniques.

Quote from: Ruprecht on June 29, 2022, 03:50:53 PM
Technically if OSR means Renaissance then the rediscovery of AD&D and D&D should count them as OSR games as the renaissance was the rediscovery as well as adaptation of old techniques.

Etymology doesn't dictate meaning.

Quote from: tenbones on June 24, 2022, 08:19:44 PM
While I played through that era deeply, and i've been on this forum for years, filled with people arguing/discussing/debating OSR/Not-OSR...

I admit I don't know what OSR means if it's not a game made before 3e D&D. And that's just my view as an outsider.

Because I have no freaking clue how many Solars need to dance on the head of a pin to get the OSR Seal of Approval, vs. just being an old-school game where stats+modifiers+die roll vs. TN, + a whole bunch of random tables is an "OSR game".

These threads make my eyebrows raise themselves involuntarily.

  I feel I am in the exact same boat.  I am glad I am not the only person that played D&D 1e when it was a BIG DEAL and still have no idea WTF OSR *really* means. 

Quote from: oggsmash on June 29, 2022, 04:19:08 PM

Quote from: tenbones on June 24, 2022, 08:19:44 PM
While I played through that era deeply, and i've been on this forum for years, filled with people arguing/discussing/debating OSR/Not-OSR...

I admit I don't know what OSR means if it's not a game made before 3e D&D. And that's just my view as an outsider.

Because I have no freaking clue how many Solars need to dance on the head of a pin to get the OSR Seal of Approval, vs. just being an old-school game where stats+modifiers+die roll vs. TN, + a whole bunch of random tables is an "OSR game".

These threads make my eyebrows raise themselves involuntarily.

  I feel I am in the exact same boat.  I am glad I am not the only person that played D&D 1e when it was a BIG DEAL and still have no idea WTF OSR *really* means.

The OSR started when some 3e players wanted to go back to the style of play of older editions of D&D, which eventually led to a wave of new products inspired by those older editions. Since then, everyone's jumped on the bandwagon and adopted the term, and many of those people get really pissy when someone defines OSR in a way that doesn't include them.

Pick any definition you like. Inclusivity is not necessary.

For me (right or wrong) OSR is with post-D&D mechanics.

If it doesn't contain those mechanics but has all that 'flavor' I see them as more 'old-school' games.

Quote from: oggsmash on June 29, 2022, 04:19:08 PM
  I feel I am in the exact same boat.  I am glad I am not the only person that played D&D 1e when it was a BIG DEAL and still have no idea WTF OSR *really* means.

It's largely a meaningless acronym at this point.  Everything started as a movement to clone TSR-era D&D because modern intentionally through out compatibility with that era because Cook, Tweet and Adkinson were idiots.  Most other games didn't need this treatment as the evolution left editions 98% compatible with the previous.  Once WotC saw the light and provided means to get the originals reprinted, it largely made the movement redundant.

Most of the movement is around hacking house rules into B/X or customizing it to a specific setting instead of the original implied one.  This is cool and all but how many versions of this does a person need?

Finally the artpunk stuff like Mork Borg claiming to be OSR is just indies shoe-horning in on a popular marketing label.  Thus the label no longer carries any real value.

This might be an odd thing to say, but as a guy who actively dislikes....yes, I said "dislikes,"....D&D from any era, I'm glad the OSR exists.  I can get over a dozen clones of the classic rules, most with changes in it to weld together and make an RPG that I would play.  Probably for free as well. 

Quote from: weirdguy564 on June 29, 2022, 10:23:21 PM
This might be an odd thing to say, but as a guy who actively dislikes....yes, I said "dislikes,"....D&D from any era, I'm glad the OSR exists.  I can get over a dozen clones of the classic rules, most with changes in it to weld together and make an RPG that I would play.  Probably for free as well.

Well, I can't stand D&D from the 80s. Most of the games back then were just so tedious and in my opinion very childish. Those Ridiculous Super Mario type dungeon crawls and mustache-twirling villains and heroes PC that were like gods. Then rinse and repeat for years! (but I do like Ravenloft). I dropped D&D as soon as I began to play Warhammer 1e.

But each to their own of course...

What I really loved about the OSR is that it managed to take a set of mediocre D&D mechanics and actually remodel them while making them really fucking cool. Then add to that some fantastic worldbuilding and you're on to a winner. Like Beyond the Wall, Through Sunken Lands, LoTFP, Hyperborea, SNP, etc.

Quote from: ronwisegamgee on June 21, 2022, 06:44:36 PM
Greetings, folks.

I just started working on an Old-School Gaming supplement for the Quick & Dirty RPG System and I was wondering what OSR games are out there that don't use a variation of pre-3rd edition D&D as its foundational system?

While the sacred cows of D&D have been a bedrock of most OSR games that I've come across (classes, six ability scores, hit points, levels, saving throws, armor as damage avoidance, etc.), I believe that those components themselves are not absolutely necessary, as is demonstrated by DM Scotty's TTRPG, EZD6.

What I think is vital to OSR gaming are the following:
- A group of adventurers exploring dungeons, where they fight monsters, avoid traps, solve puzzles, find gold and loot, and become more powerful (or dead) in the process.
- Having a setting to explore in the pursuit of one's goals, rather than following a plot laid out by the DM.
- Life is cheap and combat is war, not sport.
- The greater your deeds, the greater your renown, and the more territory you have influence or control over as you get more powerful.
- Magic is costly and is not taken for granted when used (especially at lower levels).
- Complete recovery from injury takes a while (not with one night's rest) and the opportunities to recover are not easily accessible nor guaranteed when you're adventuring.
- Probably more stuff that I haven't thought of yet but still doesn't require a D&D-esque system in the slightest.

Tunnels & Trolls ticks most of these boxes. The exceptions are: one, no domain management. And two, it isn't until the newest edition that you get any substantive description of the world at large. So, it misses the second and fourth of your bullet points. Other than that, it's the second commercially published RPG, and unlike some games, the rules have stayed sufficiently similar as to be compatible across all editions. And it definitely doesn't use D&D as a base.

D&D versus OSR...

A lot of those "favorite" old Dungeons & Dragons dungeons are stupid Convention modules where you're competing with other teams to find the most loot in the least amount of time, so there's a lot of actual garbage in there when it comes to sensible world building. (Pregens = a baseline set of performers, so that the Murder Hobo competition could be "fair" and "balanced".)

OSR is just a different era of adventure concepts, where Murder Hobo game-mastery isn't the same driving ambition. Old school death traps in old D&D days were a way to differentiate between competitive groups of Murder Hobos at gaming conventions, not just to create TPKs for the heck of it.

So OSR Simply means D&D clones? Here I'd thought it was any RPGs we played in the mid '70s to mid '80s.

Quote from: Timothe on July 19, 2022, 08:33:54 PM
So OSR Simply means D&D clones? Here I'd thought it was any RPGs we played in the mid '70s to mid '80s.

Nope.