This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.
NOTICE: Some online security services are reporting that information for a limited number of users from this site is for sale on the "dark web." As of right now, there is no direct evidence of this, but change your password just to be safe.

Author Topic: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?  (Read 1939 times)

weirdguy564

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • w
  • Posts: 122
Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2022, 05:49:56 PM »
None.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but OSR are games based on old D&D rules?  By its very definition it has to be six ability scores, dice roll vs static armor class, saving throws, and classes called Warrior, Cleric, Wizard, and Thief aka Rogue.  And elf, halfling, and dwarves sometimes as races, sometimes as a class in its own right. 

Sure, you can have new games based on old rulebooks, but they’re not in the OSR category.  Aka Mini-6 Bare Bones Edition from 2010 is based on West End Games Star Wars from 1987, but that 23 year split doesn’t make it OSR. 
Saying D&D is the best RPG is like saying Bud Lite is the best beer.  I don’t equate “popular” with “good”.

Wrath of God

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 630
  • Fearful Symmetry
Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2022, 07:25:04 PM »
Quote
Correct me if I’m wrong, but OSR are games based on old D&D rules?

We correct you. You are wrong ;)
"Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armageddon.”

"And I will strike down upon thee
With great vengeance and furious anger"


"Molti Nemici, Molto Onore"

Eric Diaz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 518
    • http://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com.br/
Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2022, 08:33:51 PM »
To add fuel to the fire:

OSR makes more sense in a D&D context since CoC, Pendragon, Runequest and even GURPS are very similar today to how it was 40ish years ago, unlike D&D where old school D&D, 3e, 4e and 5e are all very different games.
Chaos Factory Books  - Dark fantasy RPGs and more!

Methods & Madness - my  D&D 5e / Old School / Game design blog.

GeekyBugle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4885
  • Now even more Toxic
Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2022, 01:15:33 PM »
To add fuel to the fire:

OSR makes more sense in a D&D context since CoC, Pendragon, Runequest and even GURPS are very similar today to how it was 40ish years ago, unlike D&D where old school D&D, 3e, 4e and 5e are all very different games.

Agreed, so, do we need a new label for other old school retroclones of different systems?
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

Eric Diaz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 518
    • http://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com.br/
Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2022, 02:14:06 PM »
Well, some systems do not even need retroclones, I'd say. But "retroclone" and "old school" are good enough for our purposes I think, maybe leaving "OSR" to a style of play and systems that take inspiration from early D&D.... which might be vague enough to work....
Chaos Factory Books  - Dark fantasy RPGs and more!

Methods & Madness - my  D&D 5e / Old School / Game design blog.

zircher

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • z
  • Posts: 288
    • Tangent Zero
Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2022, 09:48:11 PM »
That's why OSR means Old School Rulings for me.  It is the style of play and moderation where everything does not need to be laid out for the players to exploit.  All you really need are the core rules and enough permission and guidance so the GM can handle any situation on the fly.
You can find my solo Tarot based rules for Amber on my home page.
http://www.tangent-zero.com

HappyDaze

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • H
  • Posts: 5174
Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2022, 10:21:54 PM »
I don't really care for old D&D all that much. I lived through it and played it, but it was only until I found games I liked better (Palladium's TMNT, FASA's Shadowrun, and WEG's Star Wars being some of the earliest examples). Now I look at my collection and the only things that (I think) can be called OSR are Against the Darkmaster (MERP retroclone) and Shadow of the Demon Lord (D&D tropes in a simplified system that bears little resemblence to early D&D). Of course, some might say these aren't OSR, and if that's the case, so be it.

ronwisegamgee

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 42
Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2022, 10:57:54 PM »
That's why OSR means Old School Rulings for me.  It is the style of play and moderation where everything does not need to be laid out for the players to exploit.  All you really need are the core rules and enough permission and guidance so the GM can handle any situation on the fly.

Funny enough, this was one of my goals when making the Quick & Dirty RPG System.  I just never advertised it as Old-School Gaming or OSR (because it isn't anything like a D&D retroclone), except in the promo video.

weirdguy564

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • w
  • Posts: 122
Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2022, 11:22:39 PM »

Agreed, so, do we need a new label for other old school retroclones of different systems?

How about, “Old School Retro-clones?”

It seems about right. 
Saying D&D is the best RPG is like saying Bud Lite is the best beer.  I don’t equate “popular” with “good”.

tenbones

  • Poobah of the D.O.N.G.
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5495
Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2022, 08:19:44 PM »
While I played through that era deeply, and i've been on this forum for years, filled with people arguing/discussing/debating OSR/Not-OSR...

I admit I don't know what OSR means if it's not a game made before 3e D&D. And that's just my view as an outsider.

Because I have no freaking clue how many Solars need to dance on the head of a pin to get the OSR Seal of Approval, vs. just being an old-school game where stats+modifiers+die roll vs. TN, + a whole bunch of random tables is an "OSR game".

These threads make my eyebrows raise themselves involuntarily.

RebelSky

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • R
  • Posts: 146
Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2022, 06:34:01 AM »
In addition to Zefyrs...

Zweihander - Warhammer Fantasy 1e and 2e

Against the Darkmaster - Middle-Earth Role Playing

Mutants in the Now - TMNT & Other Strangeness (doesn't call itself OSR but instead modern-retro game, which is what all OSR games really are anyways).

Carbon Grey and Zorro - Star Wars d6

There are numerous OSR games based on TSR Marvel FASERIP edition.

Mythras - Runequest. This game was Runequest 6th edition before Chaosium got Runequest back.

Gegilles

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 14
  • Speak Truth to Power
Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2022, 08:08:27 AM »
DCC has no tsr dna to me and isn’t old school.

The OSR to me is any game that clones or plays tsr-era rulesets.

Eric Diaz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 518
    • http://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com.br/
Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2022, 08:34:58 AM »
Yeah, I think OSR might be more appropriate to "inspired by TSR-era D&D".

I wrote "OSR" on the cover of my latest book. It is mostly for B/X, LL, OSE, etc. Would it be fair to put OSR on the cover if it war intended for Traveller or WFRP? I don't think so.

Then we wave self-reporting. Look at the OSR games at DTRPG.

The most popular right now are: Dwarrowdeep, Sword & Caravan, Worlds Without Number, The Halls of Arden Vul, DCC...

(and a Traveller book is the most popular book today!)

Here is DTRPGs categories under OSR:

Old-School Revival (OSR)
       Castles & Crusades
       Dungeon Crawl Classics
       Labyrinth Lord
       Mork Borg
       Old-School Essentials
       OSRIC
       Swords & Wizardry
       Other OSR Games

Then there stuff like Warlock! (a FF clone)... "Other OSR Games". That's a catch-all for all non-D&D, inspired by early games. I'm not sure this is useful as a tag. I think I've got to admit that games like this are OSR-inspired; they wouldn't exist without the OSR. But these are less than 5% of top OSR titles.

I'm not sure what to make of these titles, TBH. My first book is "Other OSR Games" because it isn't OSRIC, LL, etc., but it has 10 levels, six stats, five classes and so on. What does it have to do with Warlock or Zweihander? Maybe some aesthetic choices, or the fact that they are inspired by earlier games (but aren't they all?)

You might object to using DTRPG as a mausre but I think it makes the OSR commercially viable at this moment, since there are not many other options (at least for me).
« Last Edit: June 25, 2022, 09:12:40 AM by Eric Diaz »
Chaos Factory Books  - Dark fantasy RPGs and more!

Methods & Madness - my  D&D 5e / Old School / Game design blog.

RebelSky

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • R
  • Posts: 146
Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2022, 01:48:11 PM »
OSR is not limited to just D&D clones. There are more than enough non D&D OSR rpgs now to prove that sentiment wrong.

finarvyn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1574
Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2022, 07:55:15 AM »
Keep in mind that the whole OSR thing started because WotC refused to sell PDFs of older edition D&D, which is why D&D is at the heart of a lot of the OSR movement. When WotC released its SRD, essentially handing out the core 3E rules for free, folks realized that they could replicate or clone games much in the spirit of old D&D by taking the SRD and tweaking it to resemble the edition they wanted. OSRIC and C&C and S&W were some of the early successes. DCC took the SRD and went into their own territory instead of remaking an older edition.

The original clones were written so that folks could publish new adventures for old editions. The intent was never to be their own game, but a way to get the older stuff out there. Now that WotC sells the older stuff again, much of the purpose of the clones and the OSR has sort of gone away.

What is interesting to me is the flurry of people wanting to clone games which are not based on the WotC SRD. Other game companies never chose to give away their core rules, yet people are making clones of those games as well. Because they can. Because people realized that you can't really copyright an idea, so taking someone else's idea and then writing rules around it was okay. It's a different direction than that intended by the original OSR.
Marv / Finarvyn
Kingmaker of Amber
I'm pretty much responsible for the S&W WB rules.
Amber Diceless Player since 1993
OD&D Player since 1975