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Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion => Topic started by: ronwisegamgee on June 21, 2022, 06:44:36 PM

Title: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
Post by: ronwisegamgee on June 21, 2022, 06:44:36 PM
Greetings, folks.

I just started working on an Old-School Gaming supplement for the Quick & Dirty RPG System and I was wondering what OSR games are out there that don't use a variation of pre-3rd edition D&D as its foundational system?

While the sacred cows of D&D have been a bedrock of most OSR games that I've come across (classes, six ability scores, hit points, levels, saving throws, armor as damage avoidance, etc.), I believe that those components themselves are not absolutely necessary, as is demonstrated by DM Scotty's TTRPG, EZD6.

What I think is vital to OSR gaming are the following:
- A group of adventurers exploring dungeons, where they fight monsters, avoid traps, solve puzzles, find gold and loot, and become more powerful (or dead) in the process.
- Having a setting to explore in the pursuit of one's goals, rather than following a plot laid out by the DM.
- Life is cheap and combat is war, not sport.
- The greater your deeds, the greater your renown, and the more territory you have influence or control over as you get more powerful.
- Magic is costly and is not taken for granted when used (especially at lower levels).
- Complete recovery from injury takes a while (not with one night's rest) and the opportunities to recover are not easily accessible nor guaranteed when you're adventuring.
- Probably more stuff that I haven't thought of yet but still doesn't require a D&D-esque system in the slightest.
Title: Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
Post by: Pat on June 21, 2022, 07:16:30 PM
I think you have a very weird definition of OSR. You're being extremely specific and restrictive, while at the same time rejecting one of the more fundamental aspects of the OSR. Don't think you can really have both.

But you could always take a look at ZEFRS. It's a clone of the old Conan RPG from TSR, using a variation of the universal table that showed up in MSH instead of being based on D&D. There are also a handful of clones of The Fantasy Trip, though they've become less relevant since it's back in print. You could also look up the various Traveller-inspired fantasy variants, like Wanderer or Mercator. Otherwise, it sounds like you want something like Dungeon World, which is more OS-inspired than OSR proper.
Title: Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
Post by: ronwisegamgee on June 21, 2022, 07:49:12 PM
I think you have a very weird definition of OSR. You're being extremely specific and restrictive, while at the same time rejecting one of the more fundamental aspects of the OSR. Don't think you can really have both.

But you could always take a look at ZEFRS. It's a clone of the old Conan RPG from TSR, using a variation of the universal table that showed up in MSH instead of being based on D&D. There are also a handful of clones of The Fantasy Trip, though they've become less relevant since it's back in print. You could also look up the various Traveller-inspired fantasy variants, like Wanderer or Mercator. Otherwise, it sounds like you want something like Dungeon World, which is more OS-inspired than OSR proper.

As I mentioned in the last bullet-point, there was probably more stuff that I haven't thought of from what I previously mentioned that seemed OSR to me.  I get the impression that I conflated OSR with the more general notion of old-school gaming, hence my separating it from the original system that served as its soil.

Thank you for pointing out ZEFRS, the Fantasy Trip clones, and the Traveller-inspired fantasy variants like Wanderer of  Mercator.  I wasn't aware that those existed.  As for Dungeon World, I own a copy and have gotten a lot of value from it (from a game design perspective and for actual use).  Now that you mention it, I'll have to check how Dungeon World differs from other OSR, OSR-adjacent, and NuOSR products in more than just game mechanics.
Title: Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on June 21, 2022, 08:39:51 PM
There are OSR games based on other inspirations, like Mythras and Cryptworld, but it’s mostly D&D-based fantasy for some reason. It’s probably a matter of time before we see others pop up as the woke take over the various rpg companies. I know UndeadMonk is making a vampire game that, at least from the limited info shared so far, is shaping up to be a retroclone of WW’s vampire games.
Title: Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
Post by: Shawn Driscoll on June 21, 2022, 09:02:36 PM
I think you have a very weird definition of OSR. You're being extremely specific and restrictive, while at the same time rejecting one of the more fundamental aspects of the OSR. Don't think you can really have both.

But you could always take a look at ZEFRS. It's a clone of the old Conan RPG from TSR, using a variation of the universal table that showed up in MSH instead of being based on D&D. There are also a handful of clones of The Fantasy Trip, though they've become less relevant since it's back in print. You could also look up the various Traveller-inspired fantasy variants, like Wanderer or Mercator. Otherwise, it sounds like you want something like Dungeon World, which is more OS-inspired than OSR proper.

Pat doesn't know what OSR is. Because Pat.
Title: Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
Post by: FingerRod on June 21, 2022, 10:05:30 PM
Whitehack 3e fits your list. Fantastic game.
Title: Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
Post by: Pat on June 21, 2022, 10:56:04 PM
I think you have a very weird definition of OSR. You're being extremely specific and restrictive, while at the same time rejecting one of the more fundamental aspects of the OSR. Don't think you can really have both.

But you could always take a look at ZEFRS. It's a clone of the old Conan RPG from TSR, using a variation of the universal table that showed up in MSH instead of being based on D&D. There are also a handful of clones of The Fantasy Trip, though they've become less relevant since it's back in print. You could also look up the various Traveller-inspired fantasy variants, like Wanderer or Mercator. Otherwise, it sounds like you want something like Dungeon World, which is more OS-inspired than OSR proper.

Pat doesn't know what OSR is. Because Pat.
What?

Oh, nevermind. I'm done with tolerating shit like this. Fuck you.
Title: Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
Post by: Battlemaster on June 21, 2022, 11:31:05 PM
Well how do you define old school? Is it just a generic term? Do you define it by a time period?  What period? 1980 and before?

If you define old school as early edition DnD then obviously only early DnD clones will meet your definition.

If you go by time, early traveller clones meet your definition.
Title: Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
Post by: GeekyBugle on June 22, 2022, 12:38:26 PM
OSR started as D&D early editions. But the thing becomes muddy pretty fast, because DCC isn't D&D but you won't find many who argue it's not OSR. So what is OSR? Take your pick of the ensuing flame war.

Traveller -> Cepheus Engine (has lots of adaptations to not sci-fi genres) For instance.

Title: Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
Post by: Eric Diaz on June 22, 2022, 12:58:45 PM
By your definition of OSR (which seems a bit unique), Mythras might be a good bet (or other Runequest derivatives).

Runequest was published in 1978, so it is a good candidate for retrocloning.

EDIT: not that's EASY to define OSR. I once asked in the OSR subreddit and people rolled their eyes... there is no single answer, and some common answers (rulings not rules) seems to exclude AD&D, for example.
Title: Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
Post by: rytrasmi on June 22, 2022, 01:11:40 PM
To answer your question: None.

I've been around the block on this question and used to hold the opinion that many non-D&D-origin games were OSR.

OSR is most useful as a category if it means general compatibility with early editions of D&D. If I buy two "OSR" games created by different people I should be able to mix and match with little to no conversion.

As for OSR as a philosophy, I think that's less useful. In my view, categories should be utilitarian. If we start imbuing categories with airy fairy ideals as to game design philosophy and play style, then we are getting too vague and the category loses meaning. Besides, any game can be played with or without OSR principles. I could pull out my red box and play it in a very un-OSR way. I could and do play d100 games in an OSR way even when the rules say different. If I call a game "OSR" because of how I run or play it, it's only relevant to me, so it's useless for purposes of communication. Same goes for designer intent.

Title: Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
Post by: FingerRod on June 22, 2022, 01:20:05 PM
By your definition of OSR (which seems a bit unique), Mythras might be a good bet (or other Runequest derivatives).

Runequest was published in 1978, so it is a good candidate for retrocloning.

EDIT: not that's EASY to define OSR. I once asked in the OSR subreddit and people rolled their eyes... there is no single answer, and some common answers (rulings not rules) seems to exclude AD&D, for example.

Complete agreement, there is no single answer. And RQ is a great example.

Complete side note having nothing to do with what you were saying—‘rulings not rules’ on sites like Reddit has become such a tired expression, I almost always ignore whatever vomit salad the person saying it is trying to pass off. We’ve all read Finch’s primer. Either link to it, citation it properly, or better yet—provide real concrete examples from your games. ::)
Title: Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
Post by: Jaeger on June 22, 2022, 02:48:55 PM
OSR started as D&D early editions. But the thing becomes muddy pretty fast, because DCC isn't D&D but you won't find many who argue it's not OSR. So what is OSR? Take your pick of the ensuing flame war.

Traveller -> Cepheus Engine (has lots of adaptations to not sci-fi genres) For instance.

^Yup^...

OSR = Old school Renaissance/Revival whichever one flips your skirt up.

My hot take, you have the OSR and retro-clones. The OSR started out as retro-clones, but nowadays not all retro-clones are OSR...

Like GB said; OSR started out as clones to play early D&D editions that were out of print, based on 3e SRD.

OSR =  Generally understood as D&D based games that tend to be broadly compatible due to the commonality of the system mechanics.

But the term retro-clone can apply to OSR and to other games, so maybe we need another category: Old School Gaming?

OSG = System clones of non-D&D based games like traveller or d100 based games; either as straight retro-clones, or doing their own thing with the system.

Yes, D&D based games get their own category - But it started with the 3e OGL, so there.


These would be my general definitions. If you want to argue what the meaning of is is; bugger off, I'm not interested.
Title: Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
Post by: Jason Coplen on June 22, 2022, 03:39:46 PM
Gore by the dude who did Labyrinth Lord. Gore is an RQ clone.
Title: Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
Post by: Pat on June 22, 2022, 05:09:31 PM
I think it's less important to have a universal definition of OSR, and more important to explain which definition you're using when there's some ambiguity.
Title: Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
Post by: weirdguy564 on June 22, 2022, 05:49:56 PM
None.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but OSR are games based on old D&D rules?  By its very definition it has to be six ability scores, dice roll vs static armor class, saving throws, and classes called Warrior, Cleric, Wizard, and Thief aka Rogue.  And elf, halfling, and dwarves sometimes as races, sometimes as a class in its own right. 

Sure, you can have new games based on old rulebooks, but they’re not in the OSR category.  Aka Mini-6 Bare Bones Edition from 2010 is based on West End Games Star Wars from 1987, but that 23 year split doesn’t make it OSR. 
Title: Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
Post by: Wrath of God on June 22, 2022, 07:25:04 PM
Quote
Correct me if I’m wrong, but OSR are games based on old D&D rules?

We correct you. You are wrong ;)
Title: Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
Post by: Eric Diaz on June 22, 2022, 08:33:51 PM
To add fuel to the fire:

OSR makes more sense in a D&D context since CoC, Pendragon, Runequest and even GURPS are very similar today to how it was 40ish years ago, unlike D&D where old school D&D, 3e, 4e and 5e are all very different games.
Title: Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
Post by: GeekyBugle on June 23, 2022, 01:15:33 PM
To add fuel to the fire:

OSR makes more sense in a D&D context since CoC, Pendragon, Runequest and even GURPS are very similar today to how it was 40ish years ago, unlike D&D where old school D&D, 3e, 4e and 5e are all very different games.

Agreed, so, do we need a new label for other old school retroclones of different systems?
Title: Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
Post by: Eric Diaz on June 23, 2022, 02:14:06 PM
Well, some systems do not even need retroclones, I'd say. But "retroclone" and "old school" are good enough for our purposes I think, maybe leaving "OSR" to a style of play and systems that take inspiration from early D&D.... which might be vague enough to work....
Title: Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
Post by: zircher on June 23, 2022, 09:48:11 PM
That's why OSR means Old School Rulings for me.  It is the style of play and moderation where everything does not need to be laid out for the players to exploit.  All you really need are the core rules and enough permission and guidance so the GM can handle any situation on the fly.
Title: Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
Post by: HappyDaze on June 23, 2022, 10:21:54 PM
I don't really care for old D&D all that much. I lived through it and played it, but it was only until I found games I liked better (Palladium's TMNT, FASA's Shadowrun, and WEG's Star Wars being some of the earliest examples). Now I look at my collection and the only things that (I think) can be called OSR are Against the Darkmaster (MERP retroclone) and Shadow of the Demon Lord (D&D tropes in a simplified system that bears little resemblence to early D&D). Of course, some might say these aren't OSR, and if that's the case, so be it.
Title: Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
Post by: ronwisegamgee on June 23, 2022, 10:57:54 PM
That's why OSR means Old School Rulings for me.  It is the style of play and moderation where everything does not need to be laid out for the players to exploit.  All you really need are the core rules and enough permission and guidance so the GM can handle any situation on the fly.

Funny enough, this was one of my goals when making the Quick & Dirty RPG System.  I just never advertised it as Old-School Gaming or OSR (because it isn't anything like a D&D retroclone), except in the promo video.
Title: Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
Post by: weirdguy564 on June 23, 2022, 11:22:39 PM

Agreed, so, do we need a new label for other old school retroclones of different systems?

How about, “Old School Retro-clones?”

It seems about right. 
Title: Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
Post by: tenbones on June 24, 2022, 08:19:44 PM
While I played through that era deeply, and i've been on this forum for years, filled with people arguing/discussing/debating OSR/Not-OSR...

I admit I don't know what OSR means if it's not a game made before 3e D&D. And that's just my view as an outsider.

Because I have no freaking clue how many Solars need to dance on the head of a pin to get the OSR Seal of Approval, vs. just being an old-school game where stats+modifiers+die roll vs. TN, + a whole bunch of random tables is an "OSR game".

These threads make my eyebrows raise themselves involuntarily.
Title: Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
Post by: RebelSky on June 25, 2022, 06:34:01 AM
In addition to Zefyrs...

Zweihander - Warhammer Fantasy 1e and 2e

Against the Darkmaster - Middle-Earth Role Playing

Mutants in the Now - TMNT & Other Strangeness (doesn't call itself OSR but instead modern-retro game, which is what all OSR games really are anyways).

Carbon Grey and Zorro - Star Wars d6

There are numerous OSR games based on TSR Marvel FASERIP edition.

Mythras - Runequest. This game was Runequest 6th edition before Chaosium got Runequest back.
Title: Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
Post by: Gegilles on June 25, 2022, 08:08:27 AM
DCC has no tsr dna to me and isn’t old school.

The OSR to me is any game that clones or plays tsr-era rulesets.
Title: Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
Post by: Eric Diaz on June 25, 2022, 08:34:58 AM
Yeah, I think OSR might be more appropriate to "inspired by TSR-era D&D".

I wrote "OSR" on the cover of my latest book. It is mostly for B/X, LL, OSE, etc. Would it be fair to put OSR on the cover if it war intended for Traveller or WFRP? I don't think so.

Then we wave self-reporting. Look at the OSR games at DTRPG.

The most popular right now are: Dwarrowdeep, Sword & Caravan, Worlds Without Number, The Halls of Arden Vul, DCC...

(and a Traveller book is the most popular book today!)

Here is DTRPGs categories under OSR:

Old-School Revival (OSR)
       Castles & Crusades
       Dungeon Crawl Classics
       Labyrinth Lord
       Mork Borg
       Old-School Essentials
       OSRIC
       Swords & Wizardry
       Other OSR Games

Then there stuff like Warlock! (a FF clone)... "Other OSR Games". That's a catch-all for all non-D&D, inspired by early games. I'm not sure this is useful as a tag. I think I've got to admit that games like this are OSR-inspired; they wouldn't exist without the OSR. But these are less than 5% of top OSR titles.

I'm not sure what to make of these titles, TBH. My first book is "Other OSR Games" because it isn't OSRIC, LL, etc., but it has 10 levels, six stats, five classes and so on. What does it have to do with Warlock or Zweihander? Maybe some aesthetic choices, or the fact that they are inspired by earlier games (but aren't they all?)

You might object to using DTRPG as a mausre but I think it makes the OSR commercially viable at this moment, since there are not many other options (at least for me).
Title: Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
Post by: RebelSky on June 25, 2022, 01:48:11 PM
OSR is not limited to just D&D clones. There are more than enough non D&D OSR rpgs now to prove that sentiment wrong.
Title: Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
Post by: finarvyn on June 28, 2022, 07:55:15 AM
Keep in mind that the whole OSR thing started because WotC refused to sell PDFs of older edition D&D, which is why D&D is at the heart of a lot of the OSR movement. When WotC released its SRD, essentially handing out the core 3E rules for free, folks realized that they could replicate or clone games much in the spirit of old D&D by taking the SRD and tweaking it to resemble the edition they wanted. OSRIC and C&C and S&W were some of the early successes. DCC took the SRD and went into their own territory instead of remaking an older edition.

The original clones were written so that folks could publish new adventures for old editions. The intent was never to be their own game, but a way to get the older stuff out there. Now that WotC sells the older stuff again, much of the purpose of the clones and the OSR has sort of gone away.

What is interesting to me is the flurry of people wanting to clone games which are not based on the WotC SRD. Other game companies never chose to give away their core rules, yet people are making clones of those games as well. Because they can. Because people realized that you can't really copyright an idea, so taking someone else's idea and then writing rules around it was okay. It's a different direction than that intended by the original OSR.
Title: Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
Post by: weirdguy564 on June 28, 2022, 08:42:04 AM
One game that I’ve played that claims to be OSR, but isn’t, would be the Black Hack set of games.  I’ve played The Anime Hack.

It’s like that joke about your grandpa’s old axe.  Years ago the handle was replaced.  Last year, you replaced the head.  But, you still call it your grandpa‘s axe. 

Once you’ve changed the majority of D&D rules, is it D&D anymore?  I’ll be the first to say that it’s tough to know.  It’s a subjective thing, as changing even one bit of the rules means it’s not the same anymore. 
Title: Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
Post by: tenbones on June 29, 2022, 03:11:17 PM
OSR is not limited to just D&D clones. There are more than enough non D&D OSR rpgs now to prove that sentiment wrong.


Serious question: Why?

What is the demarcation line? I honestly don't know. Like I said - my own observations as an outsider seems to indicate any RPG or system made before 3e. Is that wrong?
Title: Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
Post by: Ruprecht on June 29, 2022, 03:50:53 PM
Technically if OSR means Renaissance then the rediscovery of AD&D and D&D should count them as OSR games as the renaissance was the rediscovery as well as adaptation of old techniques.
Title: Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
Post by: Pat on June 29, 2022, 03:53:57 PM
Technically if OSR means Renaissance then the rediscovery of AD&D and D&D should count them as OSR games as the renaissance was the rediscovery as well as adaptation of old techniques.
Etymology doesn't dictate meaning.
Title: Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
Post by: oggsmash on June 29, 2022, 04:19:08 PM
While I played through that era deeply, and i've been on this forum for years, filled with people arguing/discussing/debating OSR/Not-OSR...

I admit I don't know what OSR means if it's not a game made before 3e D&D. And that's just my view as an outsider.

Because I have no freaking clue how many Solars need to dance on the head of a pin to get the OSR Seal of Approval, vs. just being an old-school game where stats+modifiers+die roll vs. TN, + a whole bunch of random tables is an "OSR game".

These threads make my eyebrows raise themselves involuntarily.

  I feel I am in the exact same boat.  I am glad I am not the only person that played D&D 1e when it was a BIG DEAL and still have no idea WTF OSR *really* means. 
Title: Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
Post by: Pat on June 29, 2022, 06:29:07 PM
While I played through that era deeply, and i've been on this forum for years, filled with people arguing/discussing/debating OSR/Not-OSR...

I admit I don't know what OSR means if it's not a game made before 3e D&D. And that's just my view as an outsider.

Because I have no freaking clue how many Solars need to dance on the head of a pin to get the OSR Seal of Approval, vs. just being an old-school game where stats+modifiers+die roll vs. TN, + a whole bunch of random tables is an "OSR game".

These threads make my eyebrows raise themselves involuntarily.

  I feel I am in the exact same boat.  I am glad I am not the only person that played D&D 1e when it was a BIG DEAL and still have no idea WTF OSR *really* means.
The OSR started when some 3e players wanted to go back to the style of play of older editions of D&D, which eventually led to a wave of new products inspired by those older editions. Since then, everyone's jumped on the bandwagon and adopted the term, and many of those people get really pissy when someone defines OSR in a way that doesn't include them.

Pick any definition you like. Inclusivity is not necessary.
Title: Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
Post by: Rob Necronomicon on June 29, 2022, 08:31:50 PM
For me (right or wrong) OSR is with post-D&D mechanics.

If it doesn't contain those mechanics but has all that 'flavor' I see them as more 'old-school' games.
Title: Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
Post by: Palleon on June 29, 2022, 09:44:30 PM
  I feel I am in the exact same boat.  I am glad I am not the only person that played D&D 1e when it was a BIG DEAL and still have no idea WTF OSR *really* means.

It’s largely a meaningless acronym at this point.  Everything started as a movement to clone TSR-era D&D because modern intentionally through out compatibility with that era because Cook, Tweet and Adkinson were idiots.  Most other games didn’t need this treatment as the evolution left editions 98% compatible with the previous.  Once WotC saw the light and provided means to get the originals reprinted, it largely made the movement redundant.

Most of the movement is around hacking house rules into B/X or customizing it to a specific setting instead of the original implied one.  This is cool and all but how many versions of this does a person need?

Finally the artpunk stuff like Mork Borg claiming to be OSR is just indies shoe-horning in on a popular marketing label.  Thus the label no longer carries any real value.
Title: Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
Post by: weirdguy564 on June 29, 2022, 10:23:21 PM
This might be an odd thing to say, but as a guy who actively dislikes….yes, I said “dislikes,”….D&D from any era, I’m glad the OSR exists.  I can get over a dozen clones of the classic rules, most with changes in it to weld together and make an RPG that I would play.  Probably for free as well. 
Title: Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
Post by: Rob Necronomicon on June 29, 2022, 10:39:12 PM
This might be an odd thing to say, but as a guy who actively dislikes….yes, I said “dislikes,”….D&D from any era, I’m glad the OSR exists.  I can get over a dozen clones of the classic rules, most with changes in it to weld together and make an RPG that I would play.  Probably for free as well.

Well, I can't stand D&D from the 80s. Most of the games back then were just so tedious and in my opinion very childish. Those Ridiculous Super Mario type dungeon crawls and mustache-twirling villains and heroes PC that were like gods. Then rinse and repeat for years! (but I do like Ravenloft). I dropped D&D as soon as I began to play Warhammer 1e.

But each to their own of course...

What I really loved about the OSR is that it managed to take a set of mediocre D&D mechanics and actually remodel them while making them really fucking cool. Then add to that some fantastic worldbuilding and you're on to a winner. Like Beyond the Wall, Through Sunken Lands, LoTFP, Hyperborea, SNP, etc.
Title: Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
Post by: Tubesock Army on June 30, 2022, 01:23:45 AM
Greetings, folks.

I just started working on an Old-School Gaming supplement for the Quick & Dirty RPG System and I was wondering what OSR games are out there that don't use a variation of pre-3rd edition D&D as its foundational system?

While the sacred cows of D&D have been a bedrock of most OSR games that I've come across (classes, six ability scores, hit points, levels, saving throws, armor as damage avoidance, etc.), I believe that those components themselves are not absolutely necessary, as is demonstrated by DM Scotty's TTRPG, EZD6.

What I think is vital to OSR gaming are the following:
- A group of adventurers exploring dungeons, where they fight monsters, avoid traps, solve puzzles, find gold and loot, and become more powerful (or dead) in the process.
- Having a setting to explore in the pursuit of one's goals, rather than following a plot laid out by the DM.
- Life is cheap and combat is war, not sport.
- The greater your deeds, the greater your renown, and the more territory you have influence or control over as you get more powerful.
- Magic is costly and is not taken for granted when used (especially at lower levels).
- Complete recovery from injury takes a while (not with one night's rest) and the opportunities to recover are not easily accessible nor guaranteed when you're adventuring.
- Probably more stuff that I haven't thought of yet but still doesn't require a D&D-esque system in the slightest.

Tunnels & Trolls ticks most of these boxes. The exceptions are: one, no domain management. And two, it isn't until the newest edition that you get any substantive description of the world at large. So, it misses the second and fourth of your bullet points. Other than that, it's the second commercially published RPG, and unlike some games, the rules have stayed sufficiently similar as to be compatible across all editions. And it definitely doesn't use D&D as a base.
Title: Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
Post by: bromides on July 02, 2022, 05:58:39 PM
D&D versus OSR...

A lot of those "favorite" old Dungeons & Dragons dungeons are stupid Convention modules where you're competing with other teams to find the most loot in the least amount of time, so there's a lot of actual garbage in there when it comes to sensible world building. (Pregens = a baseline set of performers, so that the Murder Hobo competition could be "fair" and "balanced".)

OSR is just a different era of adventure concepts, where Murder Hobo game-mastery isn't the same driving ambition. Old school death traps in old D&D days were a way to differentiate between competitive groups of Murder Hobos at gaming conventions, not just to create TPKs for the heck of it.
Title: Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
Post by: Timothe on July 19, 2022, 08:33:54 PM
So OSR Simply means D&D clones? Here I’d thought it was any RPGs we played in the mid ‘70s to mid ‘80s.
Title: Re: What OSR games don't use D&D as its foundation?
Post by: GeekyBugle on July 19, 2022, 10:30:30 PM
So OSR Simply means D&D clones? Here I’d thought it was any RPGs we played in the mid ‘70s to mid ‘80s.

Nope.