Are any of you guys playing Delving Deeper?

I think this game has a number of things to recommend it:

- digest-sized, and thin
- concise
- comprehensive retroclone of 0e (even has aerial combat, strongholds, etc.)
- no off-putting amateur art (my main gripe with BFRPG); the book has 3 pieces of interior art plus the cover art and they are all serviceable (for my tastes)
- available at cost ($4.95 USD) -- but too bad shipping to Canada costs more than the book

Just wanted to start this thread to see other people's experiences with the game.

I am wishing Simon Bull continued success on this project.

(I'm also hoping he puts it up on amazon Canada/USA/etc for POD, same as Chris Gonnerman's Basic Fantasy and Charlie Mason's Whitebox Fantastic Medieval Adventure Game -- also both available at cost).

Quote from: 1989;1139791Are any of you guys playing Delving Deeper?

I think this game has a number of things to recommend it:

- digest-sized, and thin
- concise
- comprehensive retroclone of 0e (even has aerial combat, strongholds, etc.)
- no off-putting amateur art (my main gripe with BFRPG); the book has 3 pieces of interior art plus the cover art and they are all serviceable (for my tastes)
- available at cost ($4.95 USD) -- but too bad shipping to Canada costs more than the book

Just wanted to start this thread to see other people's experiences with the game.

I am wishing Simon Bull continued success on this project.

(I'm also hoping he puts it up on amazon Canada/USA/etc for POD, same as Chris Gonnerman's Basic Fantasy and Charlie Mason's Whitebox Fantastic Medieval Adventure Game -- also both available at cost).

You can even download it for free

http://forum.immersiveink.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=113

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1139815You can even download it for free

http://forum.immersiveink.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=113

Yes, that was how I first got it. I liked it so much that I ordered up a hard copy!

What makes it different and/or better than Swords & Wizardry: White Box?

That's been my 0e jam.

I was just reading a thread on this the other day. I'll post it here:

I am regularly asked how Delving Deeper differs from S&W, and from S&W WhiteBox. After some thought I've decided to make a public post of it so everyone can see my reply. So...


What is Delving Deeper?

Delving Deeper is an SRD-based fantasy role-playing game that emulates the "Original Rules" via the Open Game License.

D&D's "Original Rules" are not found exclusively in the three little brown books; they are also resident in Chainmail, Outdoor Survival, and other contemporary sources including The Strategic Review and The Great Plains Game Players Newsletter.


Where Does Delving Deeper Fit In?

To appreciate where DD fits into "the big picture", we first need to agree on what that big picture looks like. To that end, here's a timeline of the major D&D releases of the 1970s:

1. Chainmail (1971-1979)
2. OD&D (Jan 1974-1979)
3. Greyhawk (Feb 1975-1979)
4. Blackmoor (Sep 1975-1979)
5. Eldritch Wizardry (Apr 1976-1979)
6. Gods, Demi-Gods & Heroes (Jul 1976-1979)
7. Swords & Spells (Jul 1976-1979)
8. Holmes' Basic Set (Jul 1977-1979)
9. AD&D Monster Manual (1977-1989)
10. AD&D Player's Handbook (1978-1990)
11. AD&D Dungeon Master's Guide (1979-1990)


Fundamentally, Delving Deeper spans just those first two (listed) releases, plus some 'zine commentary of the time (most particularly the FAQ that appeared in The Strategic Review and the unofficial untested thief as it appeared in The Great Plains Game Players Newsletter).

While the "Original Rules" were subsequently expanded (in Greyhawk, Blackmoor, Eldritch Wizardry, and Gods Demi-Gods & Heroes) this material is not represented in Delving Deeper.



How Does Delving Deeper Differ from "Swords & Wizardry"?

Swords & Wizardry is also based on the "Original Game" (as stated in the Complete Rules, p6). But note that S&W's definition of the "Original Game" includes the 1974 Dungeons & Dragons set and its major supplements (lines 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6, above). IMHO, this view of the game approaches something like a "pre-cursor" to AD&D.

Delving Deeper eschews the supplements, and instead encompasses just original 1974 Dungeons & Dragons set and its progenitor; Chainmail (lines 1 and 2, above). This view of the game approaches something like the earliest publically available version of D&D.

These two views are quite different. Neither is "better" or "worse"; each is interesting in its own right.



How Does Delving Deeper Differ from "Swords & Wizardry White Box"?

(My understanding is that...) Unlike the Core and Complete variants the White Box edition of Swords & Wizardry is based largely on the original 1974 Dungeons & Dragons set without the supplements (only line 2, above).

So Delving Deeper and Swords & Wizardry White Box share a common framework. But even so, they differ considerably in their detail.

I had a decent skim through the latest (3rd print) version of the White Box last night and noticed the following differences between WB and DD (although I'm sure a dutiful read would reveal more, these are the obvious things)...

Once again, please note that I'm not saying either is "better" or "worse"; These are just a list of differences (not criticisms) I observed. I have the utmost respect for Marv, for Matt Finch, for S&W, and for the White Box.


"d-notation" doesn't appear in the original (or DD) but is used throughout the White Box.
The White Box edition appears to exclude much of what appears in volume 3 of the original; particularly the sections on preparation for the campaign, underworld exploration, pursuit/evasion, wilderness exploration, sea-faring exploration, aerial exploration, castles, and baronies. DD includes all these.
White Box omits fighting to subdue, and adds a new section detailing a combat sequence. DD includes subdual fighting, and what can be gleaned of the Alternative Combat System from the original sources rules and a few of rules interpretations from Chainmail.
White Box employs S&W's single saving throw method (although the original saving throw system is also described).
White Box weapons deal 1d6-1, 1d6, or 1d6+1 hit points damage according to their size (although 1d6 for all weapons is also mentioned).
White Box armour includes S&W's descending/ascending system of ACs.
White Box uses a 3d6 roll for turning the undead. The original uses 2d6, as does DD.
(Regarding monsters, the WB bestiary is quite different to the original. I would hazard the WB monster list was based on an existing S&W document rather than on the 3LBBs, but that's just a guess).
White Box adds some monsters (Banshees, Blink Dogs, Bugbears, Lemures, Harpies, Hell Hounds, Liches, Lizardmen, Ogre Magi, Giant Rats, Giants Slugs, Specters, Storm Giants, Worgs, Yellow Mold) as well as a new section on designing your own monsters. From memory, I think DD adds only the Lizardman (in tribute to the "Lizard logo"), the Storm Giant, and the Thull.
WB also omits some OD&D monsters (including Brigands, Buccaneers, Dervishes, Nomads, Pirates, Cavemen, Gnomes, Halflings, Pixies, Nixies, and most of the many monsters that are mentioned in the 3LBBs but not described explicitly). DD includes every monster mentioned or described in the 3LBBs (excepting those owned by other copyright holders).
White Box Dragons have 8 age categories (as per Greyhawk, AD&D). FWIW -- DD also differs from the original on Dragons, ascribing them SRD-like number of six-sided HD.
Also notable is that White Box eschews the "treasure type" system, and describes a new method of generating treasure (in which magic swords lack extraordinary powers and occur no more frequently than do other magic weapons -- woe to fighters!). DD uses treasure types and an emulation of the original distribution of magic-items.
WB includes only spells appearing in M&M, DD includes some additional spells.
WB clerics don't "top out" at 7 HD.
WB clerics don't have spellbooks; spells are divinely given (as per Greyhawk & AD&D).
WB clerical spell progression is very close to the original, while DD's is SRD-based (same total number of spells per day in each).
WB fighters don't "top out" at 9 HD.
WB fighter multiple attacks are versus foes of 1 or fewer HD (as per AD&D).
WB fighters lack morale benefits, sensing invisible opponents, and other chainmail benefits of the original.
WB magic-users don't "top out" at 7 HD.
WB magic-users require triple XP (woe to magic-users!) to reach 9th and 10th levels.
WB magic-users have fewer HD (5 rather than 8 at 10th level).
White Box doesn't include thieves (neither does the original, but DD does).
WB dwarves don't see by night.
WB Elves don't add +1 damage with magical weapons, but do get +1 to hit/damage versus "Hereditary Foes".
WB provides a variant elf which looks very similar to the red box Basic D&D elf (a combined fighter/magic-user class called the "elf").


Allow me to reiterate: I am not being critical of the White Box! The White Box is a great work that combines an open-ended philosophy and some new things with the original game in a classy "toolbox" style of presentation.

I created the above list because I have been asked to, and also to illustrate that -- in all fairness -- Delving Deeper is not just a poor cousin of S&W:WB.

Delving Deeper is uniquely positioned as an emulation of the earliest published Dungeons & Dragons game. I hope folks will be able to see where DD "fits in" and read it for what it is, rather than worrying about what it isn't.

Enjoy!

https://odd74.proboards.com/thread/8657/delving-deeper





*****

S&W Whitebox is awesome, too. For $5 on amazon, you can't beat it. I have all the different cover art versions.

My main criticism of Whitebox would be that it is missing the most important part: How to make a dungeon! Delving Deeper has the guidance/rules for making a dungeon as was in the original D&D whitebox. Earlier versions of Delving Deeper even had a sample dungeon, but it was removed for the more recent version. I hope they bring it back, as the original whitebox had a sample dungeon.

Quote from: 1989;1139822I was just reading a thread on this the other day. I'll post it here:

I am regularly asked how Delving Deeper differs from S&W, and from S&W WhiteBox. After some thought I've decided to make a public post of it so everyone can see my reply. So...


What is Delving Deeper?

Delving Deeper is an SRD-based fantasy role-playing game that emulates the "Original Rules" via the Open Game License.

D&D's "Original Rules" are not found exclusively in the three little brown books; they are also resident in Chainmail, Outdoor Survival, and other contemporary sources including The Strategic Review and The Great Plains Game Players Newsletter.


Where Does Delving Deeper Fit In?

To appreciate where DD fits into "the big picture", we first need to agree on what that big picture looks like. To that end, here's a timeline of the major D&D releases of the 1970s:

1. Chainmail (1971-1979)
2. OD&D (Jan 1974-1979)
3. Greyhawk (Feb 1975-1979)
4. Blackmoor (Sep 1975-1979)
5. Eldritch Wizardry (Apr 1976-1979)
6. Gods, Demi-Gods & Heroes (Jul 1976-1979)
7. Swords & Spells (Jul 1976-1979)
8. Holmes' Basic Set (Jul 1977-1979)
9. AD&D Monster Manual (1977-1989)
10. AD&D Player's Handbook (1978-1990)
11. AD&D Dungeon Master's Guide (1979-1990)


Fundamentally, Delving Deeper spans just those first two (listed) releases, plus some 'zine commentary of the time (most particularly the FAQ that appeared in The Strategic Review and the unofficial untested thief as it appeared in The Great Plains Game Players Newsletter).

While the "Original Rules" were subsequently expanded (in Greyhawk, Blackmoor, Eldritch Wizardry, and Gods Demi-Gods & Heroes) this material is not represented in Delving Deeper.



How Does Delving Deeper Differ from "Swords & Wizardry"?

Swords & Wizardry is also based on the "Original Game" (as stated in the Complete Rules, p6). But note that S&W's definition of the "Original Game" includes the 1974 Dungeons & Dragons set and its major supplements (lines 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6, above). IMHO, this view of the game approaches something like a "pre-cursor" to AD&D.

Delving Deeper eschews the supplements, and instead encompasses just original 1974 Dungeons & Dragons set and its progenitor; Chainmail (lines 1 and 2, above). This view of the game approaches something like the earliest publically available version of D&D.

These two views are quite different. Neither is "better" or "worse"; each is interesting in its own right.



How Does Delving Deeper Differ from "Swords & Wizardry White Box"?

(My understanding is that...) Unlike the Core and Complete variants the White Box edition of Swords & Wizardry is based largely on the original 1974 Dungeons & Dragons set without the supplements (only line 2, above).

So Delving Deeper and Swords & Wizardry White Box share a common framework. But even so, they differ considerably in their detail.

I had a decent skim through the latest (3rd print) version of the White Box last night and noticed the following differences between WB and DD (although I'm sure a dutiful read would reveal more, these are the obvious things)...

Once again, please note that I'm not saying either is "better" or "worse"; These are just a list of differences (not criticisms) I observed. I have the utmost respect for Marv, for Matt Finch, for S&W, and for the White Box.


"d-notation" doesn't appear in the original (or DD) but is used throughout the White Box.
The White Box edition appears to exclude much of what appears in volume 3 of the original; particularly the sections on preparation for the campaign, underworld exploration, pursuit/evasion, wilderness exploration, sea-faring exploration, aerial exploration, castles, and baronies. DD includes all these.
White Box omits fighting to subdue, and adds a new section detailing a combat sequence. DD includes subdual fighting, and what can be gleaned of the Alternative Combat System from the original sources rules and a few of rules interpretations from Chainmail.
White Box employs S&W's single saving throw method (although the original saving throw system is also described).
White Box weapons deal 1d6-1, 1d6, or 1d6+1 hit points damage according to their size (although 1d6 for all weapons is also mentioned).
White Box armour includes S&W's descending/ascending system of ACs.
White Box uses a 3d6 roll for turning the undead. The original uses 2d6, as does DD.
(Regarding monsters, the WB bestiary is quite different to the original. I would hazard the WB monster list was based on an existing S&W document rather than on the 3LBBs, but that's just a guess).
White Box adds some monsters (Banshees, Blink Dogs, Bugbears, Lemures, Harpies, Hell Hounds, Liches, Lizardmen, Ogre Magi, Giant Rats, Giants Slugs, Specters, Storm Giants, Worgs, Yellow Mold) as well as a new section on designing your own monsters. From memory, I think DD adds only the Lizardman (in tribute to the "Lizard logo"), the Storm Giant, and the Thull.
WB also omits some OD&D monsters (including Brigands, Buccaneers, Dervishes, Nomads, Pirates, Cavemen, Gnomes, Halflings, Pixies, Nixies, and most of the many monsters that are mentioned in the 3LBBs but not described explicitly). DD includes every monster mentioned or described in the 3LBBs (excepting those owned by other copyright holders).
White Box Dragons have 8 age categories (as per Greyhawk, AD&D). FWIW -- DD also differs from the original on Dragons, ascribing them SRD-like number of six-sided HD.
Also notable is that White Box eschews the "treasure type" system, and describes a new method of generating treasure (in which magic swords lack extraordinary powers and occur no more frequently than do other magic weapons -- woe to fighters!). DD uses treasure types and an emulation of the original distribution of magic-items.
WB includes only spells appearing in M&M, DD includes some additional spells.
WB clerics don't "top out" at 7 HD.
WB clerics don't have spellbooks; spells are divinely given (as per Greyhawk & AD&D).
WB clerical spell progression is very close to the original, while DD's is SRD-based (same total number of spells per day in each).
WB fighters don't "top out" at 9 HD.
WB fighter multiple attacks are versus foes of 1 or fewer HD (as per AD&D).
WB fighters lack morale benefits, sensing invisible opponents, and other chainmail benefits of the original.
WB magic-users don't "top out" at 7 HD.
WB magic-users require triple XP (woe to magic-users!) to reach 9th and 10th levels.
WB magic-users have fewer HD (5 rather than 8 at 10th level).
White Box doesn't include thieves (neither does the original, but DD does).
WB dwarves don't see by night.
WB Elves don't add +1 damage with magical weapons, but do get +1 to hit/damage versus "Hereditary Foes".
WB provides a variant elf which looks very similar to the red box Basic D&D elf (a combined fighter/magic-user class called the "elf").


Allow me to reiterate: I am not being critical of the White Box! The White Box is a great work that combines an open-ended philosophy and some new things with the original game in a classy "toolbox" style of presentation.

I created the above list because I have been asked to, and also to illustrate that -- in all fairness -- Delving Deeper is not just a poor cousin of S&W:WB.

Delving Deeper is uniquely positioned as an emulation of the earliest published Dungeons & Dragons game. I hope folks will be able to see where DD "fits in" and read it for what it is, rather than worrying about what it isn't.

Enjoy!

https://odd74.proboards.com/thread/8657/delving-deeper





*****

S&W Whitebox is awesome, too. For $5 on amazon, you can't beat it. I have all the different cover art versions.

My main criticism of Whitebox would be that it is missing the most important part: How to make a dungeon! Delving Deeper has the guidance/rules for making a dungeon as was in the original D&D whitebox. Earlier versions of Delving Deeper even had a sample dungeon, but it was removed for the more recent version. I hope they bring it back, as the original whitebox had a sample dungeon.

Delving Deeper sounds interesting.  I like the scope of OD&D a lot.  I'd prefer a universal success mechanic, but OD&D is a very cool game.

Delving Deeper is pretty awesome, I remember liking the free download version and I'll have to give it a second look for sure

Quote from: Spinachcat;1139818What makes it different and/or better than Swords & Wizardry: White Box?

That's been my 0e jam.

1989 posted a very long and detailed answer, but the tl;dr reply would be: S&W is the essence of OD&D, DD is a direct clone.

I dunno, I honestly don't really see the point as you can still get OD&D in PDF (for how long we'll see)...also, there is a cleaned up/edited version of OD&D by Il Male and Greyharp that is actually the best RPG I've seen (not joking).

Quote from: Brad;11399771989 posted a very long and detailed answer, but the tl;dr reply would be: S&W is the essence of OD&D, DD is a direct clone.

I dunno, I honestly don't really see the point as you can still get OD&D in PDF (for how long we'll see)...also, there is a cleaned up/edited version of OD&D by Il Male and Greyharp that is actually the best RPG I've seen (not joking).

Link to the last?

Well, I'm not supporting WotC or buying their PDFs anymore, so ....

I like both S&W Whitebox and Delving Deeper. I really want to see Delving Deeper on Amazon!

I'm not sure if this is "illegal" to do on this forum, but you can find a perfect scan (I printed it out, looks awesome) of OD&D and also the WotC limited edition OD&D PDF at this link:

thetrove.net

I don't really understand how this site is able to stay up. Also, I do not condone piracy. I think we should support the people who make these products. I have used the site to get a preview of books before I buy, or just browsing for curiosity and interest.

In addition to the annotated version being absolutely fascinating, the about page shared by 1989 is the concise guide to the differences between 0e versions that I've been wanting for ages. This is AWESOME! Thanks!

Plus it looks like Delving Deeper is typeset in LaTeX, always the mark of a discerning individual.

Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral;1140032In addition to the annotated version being absolutely fascinating, the about page shared by 1989 is the concise guide to the differences between 0e versions that I've been wanting for ages. This is AWESOME! Thanks!

Plus it looks like Delving Deeper is typeset in LaTeX, always the mark of a discerning individual.

Somebody should drop him a line and ask if he can put it up on amazon.

Sounds neat. I tried to order it, but I can't even add the book to the shopping cart nor can I log in. What the hell happened to Lulu?

Quote from: Morblot;1140634What the hell happened to Lulu?

They "updated" their website several months ago, and in doing so completely broke it.