Quote from: Jason Morningstar;327135Hey Levi, I appreciate you distinguishing me from my many friends and associates.  Blanket assumptions about "the Forge guys" are always inaccurate.

"The Forge Guys" are the ones over there, at the Forge, currently being engaged by it's subculture, right now.  While they're elsewhere, they're not "Forge guys" to me.

This is a clever mental trick I apply to all online communities.  I do it so that I can talk to individuals as individuals and still make horribly unfair blanket statements about their communities, simply for convenience of discussion.

Yes, that probably means I'm still kind of a dick.

*Shrug*

Quote from: flyingmice;327132Immersion is really difficult to describe properly, like most purely subjective things. I really have no idea if we are talking about the same thing at all. Luckily, Levi - along with a few others - can sometimes interpret if you can pin him down long enough...

Oh, god.

Immersion is a bitch to talk about.  It has big fucking teeth.  But I think it's also likely pretty central to this discussion.

So let's go there.

But I'm gonna bring my power tools.

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Wank Alert!  Levi-Jargon Ahead!  Will likely annoy GNS-Theorists and anti-Theorists alike!
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CATHARSIS is a feeling of release that follows an intense or overwhelming experience. Not necessarily a tragic or traumatic experience, but usually an emotional one. Catharsis requires a base level of emotional engagement with the character; when a player looks for emotional engagement (but treats other kinds of engagement as secondary), they're looking to be set up for catharsis and other vicarious experiences.

KAIROSIS is the feeling that of fulfilment that comes with change and development. When a character under tension is revealed to be more than they were previously thought, or when they change significantly (and become more engaging as a result), that’s often a search for kairosis.

KENOSIS is the feeling of being deeply engaged in their character or in the fiction as a whole. Players looking for this (especially really serious kinds) often aim for a lot of characterisation. They also often (but not always) want to avoid types of collaboration that will pull them “out of the groove”. Serious kenosis is one of many “flow states” that goes on in tabletop gaming.

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When you say immersion, are you looking for one of those broad kinds of enjoyment?  Or for something else?

Can you get more specific? (For example, if it's Kenosis, do you engage the character or the whole fiction?  Do you think of character-Kenosis as player immersion and whole-fiction kenosis as GM-immersion?)

And what methods do you employ in getting it?

That 'Kenosis' shit sounds okay to me... I like immersion... finding myself thinking from inside the character (rather than from outside... like a video game sprite). It needs the assistance of the other players and setting though.
I don't like that metagaming crap though... stupid dice tricks and mechanical chicanery.

Using Levi's terms, I'm firmly a Kairosis guy.  I love when that shit happens.  I don't mind a little Catharsis on the way, however.

Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;327142"The Forge Guys" are the ones over there, at the Forge, currently being engaged by it's subculture, right now.  While they're elsewhere, they're not "Forge guys" to me.

This is a clever mental trick I apply to all online communities.  I do it so that I can talk to individuals as individuals and still make horribly unfair blanket statements about their communities, simply for convenience of discussion.

I'm logged into the Forge and reading it right now, being about as engaged with it as I ever was back when I was posting more.  (I'm reading "GNS and Hierarchy".)  Being over there and over here aren't exclusive, because by the magic of operating systems, I have two windows open in front of me -- one over there and one over here.  I'm in two places at once, so your generalizations of both places should apply to me simultaneously.  

:-)

Yep, kenosis is closest to it, although I don't consider myself one of those "deep-feelers". At least I'm not trying hard to get there. It's more a byproduct of what Simlasa talks about: thinking from inside the character.

Jim Henley wrote something about the abuse of the term "immersion" by the Forge, on RPG.net, but I can't find it at the moment. Very a propos if I can...gotta run.

Quote from: jhkim;327151I'm logged into the Forge and reading it right now, being about as engaged with it as I ever was back when I was posting more.  (I'm reading "GNS and Hierarchy".)  Being over there and over here aren't exclusive, because by the magic of operating systems, I have two windows open in front of me -- one over there and one over here.  I'm in two places at once, so your generalizations of both places should apply to me simultaneously.  

:-)

John Kim, folks, causing me severe cognitive dissonance since...

Oh, fuck, far too long.

Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;327145Oh, god.

Immersion is a bitch to talk about.  It has big fucking teeth.  But I think it's also likely pretty central to this discussion.

So let's go there.

But I'm gonna bring my power tools.

See? I told you!

-clash

About my reference to Jim Henley (Supplanter) above, instead of editing it in: http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=9773805&postcount=91

Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;327145Oh, god.

Immersion is a bitch to talk about.  It has big fucking teeth.  But I think it's also likely pretty central to this discussion.

So let's go there.

But I'm gonna bring my power tools.

.........................................................................
Wank Alert!  Levi-Jargon Ahead!  Will likely annoy GNS-Theorists and anti-Theorists alike!
........................................................................

CATHARSIS is a feeling of release that follows an intense or overwhelming experience. Not necessarily a tragic or traumatic experience, but usually an emotional one. Catharsis requires a base level of emotional engagement with the character; when a player looks for emotional engagement (but treats other kinds of engagement as secondary), they're looking to be set up for catharsis and other vicarious experiences.

KAIROSIS is the feeling that of fulfilment that comes with change and development. When a character under tension is revealed to be more than they were previously thought, or when they change significantly (and become more engaging as a result), that's often a search for kairosis.

KENOSIS is the feeling of being deeply engaged in their character or in the fiction as a whole. Players looking for this (especially really serious kinds) often aim for a lot of characterisation. They also often (but not always) want to avoid types of collaboration that will pull them "out of the groove". Serious kenosis is one of many "flow states" that goes on in tabletop gaming.

....................................

When you say immersion, are you looking for one of those broad kinds of enjoyment?  Or for something else?

Can you get more specific? (For example, if it's Kenosis, do you engage the character or the whole fiction?  Do you think of character-Kenosis as player immersion and whole-fiction kenosis as GM-immersion?)

And what methods do you employ in getting it?

You're getting less flaky over time. I'm glad to see you've been reading about "flow" finally. I do think that's you have a categorisation that's pointed in the wrong direction though.

"Immersion" is just the experience of a "flow" state during play. Analysing that experience into categories of causes gives a false impression of distinction - you can already see people saying silly shit like "I'm a Kairosis guy!" on this very thread. You might as well match up Enneagram profiles to playstyles. It's balderdash personality typology rebranded through Greek loanwords.

When a "flow" state actually occurs, it involves myriads of little causes that synergise. Psychological investment, a feeling of competence in the face of challenge, physical and emotional comfort, all of these and more in unique proportions to each individual in each instance contribute to the experience described as "immersion".

The experiences that precede and found a "flow" state have already been (partially) described by Csikczentmihalyi (though which are descriptive and which are causative is not well elaborated in the portions of his work that I've read). It's more useful to analyse specific, real instances of play in line with those and to look at how the feeling of "flow" (and other positive psychological states) actually arise than to simply provide another typology that will mislead everyone.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;327189"Immersion" is just the experience of a "flow" state during play. Analysing that experience into categories of causes gives a false impression of distinction - you can already see people saying silly shit like "I'm a Kairosis guy!" on this very thread.

I don't believe that those are false distinctions.  Though I don't think they're personality types either.

It's possible to seek Kairosis and whole-fiction-Kenosis in a pure Story Game - Even one as light as Once Upon A Time.

You can get Catharsis without even having an interactive experience.

Seeking character-side Kenosis tend to mean talking in character, and other 'theatrical' bits.

These distinctions are meaningful in that they speak to methods.

I've been pimpin' quite a bit lately, but my article in this month's Chaos Ex about villains/antagonists can be used to flesh out protagonists as well.

Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;327191I don't believe that those are false distinctions.  Though I don't think they're personality types either.

It's possible to seek Kairosis and whole-fiction-Kenosis in a pure Story Game - Even one as light as Once Upon A Time.

You can get Catharsis without even having an interactive experience.

Seeking character-side Kenosis tend to mean talking in character, and other 'theatrical' bits.

These distinctions are meaningful in that they speak to methods.

They're not "methods", Levi. A "method" would involve doing something. These are features of experiences, which are rarely comprised purely of any one of these features. Because of that, the more primordial and intellectually fecund topic is: What causes these experiences, with all their complexities? The partial answer is "flow".

This is a useful answer because that we know what flow is, and what causes it in general. A _more_ useful answer would be to explain how the specific features of flow occur in actual gaming, and to look at how other positive psychological states that occur during gaming arise.

Otherwise, this whole thing boils down banality:

"Some people enjoy speaking in character; some people enjoy solving problems. I enjoy speaking in character. Which do you enjoy doing?"

With all the obvious intellectual defects the above sentence displays.

Whenever I see someone say "Immersion  is just...", especially when they follow it up with "flow", I know they're not talking about what I mean. Or, I believe, anyone means who says they value immersion and find it interrupted by certain mechanics or methods.

See again: Jim Henley, above.

Quote from: Jason Morningstar;327072Well, for starters let's not talk about what the characters want, or what the character's goals are, because they are just part of the fiction.  They are not self-directed; they have no agency.  Let's talk about players, you and me at the table as friends, and what we want, and what our goals are, and how we'll achieve them through the tools available to us, one of which is the cast of characters.

Actually I have to talk about what the characters want and their goals. I know, it all sounds a little dodgy separating player from character but that's how it goes in my experience. See, as players (you and me) in a group will agree to a couple of things before the campaign. We will discuss the setting, the tone of the game etc. We won't discuss what kind of "story" we want want out of the game. We probably won't even discuss the kinds of characters we want to play. This last part we would discuss with the GM. Most times we won't even view our characters as tools (one of many) that create a narrative.

QuoteScale that back and it becomes a matter of degree - how immersed can I be and still have fun?  At what point am I too immersed to interact with game mechanics?  At what point am I too immersed to pay attention to the fiction, and ways I could shape it in interesting ways?  The answers are individual and to a degree also a product of social agreement.  For me it's pretty light most of the time.

I think John Morrow, would love this discussion.

Of course we are talking about degrees. But see, most people I know don't really want to interact with the mechanics. There's very little interest in metagame considerations. Of course immersion does not mean we lose track of the fact that this is a social activity and we are gaming with others - which I suppose means that it's not total immersion but IME a large part of what draws some to gaming is sustaining the "mood", of the game. When regular folks talk about immersion it's in this sense. "

Certain mechanics, stuff like "I spend this amount to do this" detracts from the mood as opposed to a simple roll. Setting stakes is another example. Most times we stay in character, think about what the character wants and does but remain aware that there are other players around the gaming table.

QuoteDoes that make sense?

Of course.

Regards,
David R