Quote from: SHARK;1138033Take Fighters, for example. I know that many people *love* low-level, non-magical, gritty games, with everyone being a level 1 farmer. Looking at the feats, I was like, damn, what professional soldier doesn't know how to Shield Bash, and Dodge, and on and on. Before I knew it, I made most basic professional soldiers level 3, 4, 5, and 6, as a sort of base line. Anything below level 3 and such a character was nothing more than a raw recruit. That process was heavily influenced by the very institution of clusters of feats, which all pushed for them being essential for whatever character being genuinely effective and proper in their job.

SHARK posed an interesting question regarding what he considered to be a competent professional Soldier.  He calculated that most Soldiers have to be at least 3rd level.

What about you, what level are most NPCs in your worlds?  Mostly level 0, a few 1st level with only rare higher level characters or do they level up with your characters or something else?

Mostly 0 level. That counts aged soldiers who lost their edge.

Even kings and such who have lost their edge and had their adventuring days behind them don't really out-class the party too much. Because I really want the PCs to the the stars of the show.

I tend to make level 3 the "standard" level in most my campaigns. and most professionals, regardless of occupation (guards, merchants, lawmakers, whatever), tend to be around 3 HD. No level 0 or 1 HD peasants in my worlds (unless they're children). Levels 1-2 are just considered "training" levels, like "level 0" rules in old D&D. And only level 3+ characters are considered full blown adventurers.

My reasoning wasn't based around feats, however (this started back in 2e), but rather that I always considered 1 HD to be way too low for HP, and higher level characters orders of magnitude more powerful than 1 HD guards, to the point that you don't really need to reach "epic" level 20+ to be godlike. You pretty much can bulldoze through a small town like you were a demigod by level 10 or so already--at least, assuming that your average adult human is only 1 HD. That math changes pretty quickly the moment every grunt is level 3, every captain or ranking soldier is level 5-6 minimum, and even merchants are like a level 3 rogue or similar.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1138110I tend to make level 3 the "standard" level in most my campaigns. and most professionals, regardless of occupation (guards, merchants, lawmakers, whatever), tend to be around 3 HD. No level 0 or 1 HD peasants in my worlds (unless they're children). Levels 1-2 are just considered "training" levels, like "level 0" rules in old D&D. And only level 3+ characters are considered full blown adventurers.

My reasoning wasn't based around feats, however (this started back in 2e), but rather that I always considered 1 HD to be way too low for HP, and higher level characters orders of magnitude more powerful than 1 HD guards, to the point that you don't really need to reach "epic" level 20+ to be godlike. You pretty much can bulldoze through a small town like you were a demigod by level 10 or so already--at least, assuming that your average adult human is only 1 HD. That math changes pretty quickly the moment every grunt is level 3, every captain or ranking soldier is level 5-6 minimum, and even merchants are like a level 3 rogue or similar.

Greetings!

Yes, I agree, my friend! In my campaigns, most professional adults of whatever profession are at least three or four hit dice. I make probably most of mine level 4, and above. Groups of level 10 adventurers are definitely NOT going to be bulldozing entire towns! *Laughing* I also like the idea that NPC's have more going on for them. Level 1 or 2, even as a civilian-like merchant or shepherd just seems entirely pathetic.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Shasarak;1138104SHARK posed an interesting question regarding what he considered to be a competent professional Soldier.  He calculated that most Soldiers have to be at least 3rd level.

What about you, what level are most NPCs in your worlds?  Mostly level 0, a few 1st level with only rare higher level characters or do they level up with your characters or something else?

Most of the people you run into are without an adventuring career, and thus 0 level. But my campaigns tend to lack mooks and palookas, so even a 0-level farmer might hurt or kill you. And the bartender with three levels of fighting experience isn't wearing a sign. Anyone who is currently under arms is wildly unlikely to be 0 level and some might be high-level. Level and military rank have little or nothing to do with one another. Nobles are almost always trained as Elite Warriors (this isn't D&D) which means that, at one time, they were the equal of a third-level fighter and they have better equipment. If they have kept it up, been to war, been suppressing bandits and hobgoblins and the like, they will be even better. If they have been resting on their laurels, they aren't much of a threat. If a wealthy Mage has hired bodyguards they will be top-notch.

Of course, level in my games has nothing to do with Hit Points. Big, healthy people have more but HP won't save you with the damages things do.

I notice the orcs are 1 hit dice creatures in the Monster Manual, most human sized creatures are 1 hit dice.

For me the baseline npc is level 0. The greatest wizard in the land is level 7 (put of 10, might be higher if playing a 1-20 or 1-36 level game) and the king and his knights are a veteran fighters at level 5 or 6. The PCs are currently level 4 and are something like an elite adventuring team theyre at the level they can solve most problems in the main kingdom, but its a relatively civilized zone so they're gearing up to go into unexplored territory where some stronger stuff is. So besides the outlier wizard, the strongest people in familiar/ civilized lands are about half way up the level advancement tree. Cause by the time they get to 7th level i want them to be doing things no one else could be tasked to do so they're the ones doing the moving and shaking.

Quote from: Slambo;1138119For me the baseline npc is level 0. The greatest wizard in the land is level 7 (put of 10, might be higher if playing a 1-20 or 1-36 level game) and the king and his knights are a veteran fighters at level 5 or 6. The PCs are currently level 4 and are something like an elite adventuring team theyre at the level they can solve most problems in the main kingdom, but its a relatively civilized zone so they're gearing up to go into unexplored territory where some stronger stuff is. So besides the outlier wizard, the strongest people in familiar/ civilized lands are about half way up the level advancement tree. Cause by the time they get to 7th level i want them to be doing things no one else could be tasked to do so they're the ones doing the moving and shaking.

Well 3.5 doesn't have a level 0, it has NPC classes instead which include warriors, commoners, aristocrats, and experts and they all start at level 1. I don't have much use for a 20th level commoner though.

I tend to have a spread of NPC levels when any are classed. AD&D was my go-to for that as it listed various NPCs that could be encountered in a city.

Quick example is the City Guard.
2d8 0 level mercs.
1 leader of level 1d4+2. 2 leaders if there are more than 8 mercs, 3 if more than 12.
1 magic user level 1d4

City Watch
5 men plus a sergant of level 1-3 in the day. 10 men and 2 sergants at night and one lieutanant level 4-5. And a cleric level 1d4+1

Another is a cleric level 1d6+5. and 1d6-1 acolytes level 1d4.

or a Fighter level 2d4+4 and some level 1d4 henchmen.

And so on.

Quote from: Shasarak;1138104SHARK posed an interesting question regarding what he considered to be a competent professional Soldier.  He calculated that most Soldiers have to be at least 3rd level.

What about you, what level are most NPCs in your worlds?  Mostly level 0, a few 1st level with only rare higher level characters or do they level up with your characters or something else?

I like the idea of only player characters having levels, but then any non-monster NPC opponents would be less than a speed bump.

In practice, I tailor the levels of the opponents to the average party character level. Doesn't mean they can't encounter a high level opponent, but high level to a party of 1st level characters isn't the same as a high level opponent to a party of 9th level characters, etc.

I never run zero lvl NPCs. Makes the "lvl shell game" interesting as the PCs should respect whoever they are addressing, as you never know whether you can take them on. This helps keep down scenery-chewing murderhobo antics down to a minimum in my campaigns.

I have been so fond of the results I see no benefit in changing for lvl-based games.

Quote from: Opaopajr;1138134I never run zero lvl NPCs. Makes the "lvl shell game" interesting as the PCs should respect whoever they are addressing, as you never know whether you can take them on. This helps keep down scenery-chewing murderhobo antics down to a minimum in my campaigns.

I have been so fond of the results I see no benefit in changing for lvl-based games.

Greetings!

That's right, my friend! Have to keep the Murderhobo's in check! I always like to keep the players on their toes. They can never be sure that a City Guard Captain isn't one of the best swordsmen in the kingdom. The whole thing of the Player Characters being heroes is a fine foundation, but it isn't like the Player Characters are the *Only* heroes or champions in the area, the city, or the kingdom at large.

When some people whine, "Well, if the Players are just some of the heroes, and aren't really that special, why doesn't the Baron or the King have all these other heroes take care of problems?" I always tell them, "Well, the kingdom faces many problems, many struggles. There is usually more than enough to go around. Beyond that, why are you so worried about other heroes traveling the land, or at service to the King? You should worry about yourself living up to being a champion--if the job seems to be too tough, you can always go back to the farm!"

Of course there are other champions and heroes around. Besides that, at whatever level the Player Characters are at, I always feel like telling anyone with an attitude, "No, you aren't special. You aren't blessed. If you don't rise to the challenge, then you may face going into an early grave. Being a "Hero" is as much a journey as a destination. You need to always remember, out in the blasted wastes, in the hordes of beastmen and orcs, there is some young warrior that may just have your number! Death is always nearby, and no self-anointed title of "Hero" is protection from a harsh and savage reality."

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Shasarak;1138104What about you, what level are most NPCs in your worlds?  Mostly level 0, a few 1st level with only rare higher level characters or do they level up with your characters or something else?

In D6 system where 2D is the 'everyman' or average, my baseline NPCs typically have attribute 3D in their area of competence and skills of 4D. So a basic recruit soldier has Might 3D, weapon skill 4D, everything else 2D. Crack troops and experts have 5D. A starting PC can have attribute of 4D and skills at 6D; that's novice hero level. Boba Fett types have skills at 8D-9D, Darth Vader types 10D-12D, and I cap at 15D.

In 5e D&D, NPCs don't normally have levels. I use the 11 hp MM Guard for raw recruits and peasant militia; my veteran warriors such as the Skandik vikings typically have 22 hp; crack troops like Quodethi Marines have 32 hp (& 2 attacks), elites like the Thule Legionary and MM Veteran have 52-58 hp. I tend to use the MM baseline spellcasters who cast at around 4th level and have ca 18-22 hp as typical Druids, Bards etc. Legendary characters are 17th-20th; I use the full 5e 1-20 level spread.

Running 1e AD&D/OSRIC again PBP set in Damara, I've enjoyed working on the demographics. I've halved Forgotten Realms NPC levels from book levels, this seems to fit better with the system's baseline assumptions (other than level listings for Men in MM, which I also halve - levels for Demihuman leaders are fine). Most NPCs are 0th level.

I give all classed characters maximum hp at 1st level and high-average above that, so Fighter 1 hp 10, Fighter 2 hp 16, Fighter 3 hp 22, etc.

Man at arms or Squire: level 0, 4-7 hp.
Sergeant or Knight (heavy cavalry): Fighter 1
Senior Sergeant, Junior Lieutenant, Knight Serjeant: Fighter 2
Master Sergeant, Senior Lieutenant, Knight Lieutenant: Fighter 3-4
Captain, Steward, Castellan: Fighter 5+

For spellcasters and various others, younger and less competent characters are level 1-2, most experienced characters are level 3-4, level 5-6 are rare elites, 7+ is heroic level, these are renowned characters likely known nationwide. Level 10+ is legendary, these are the kind of characters who've fought Lolth or Tiamat or Orcus and survived. Elminster is 13th level (halved from 1e FRCS listed 26th); The Simbul is 14th level. So I'm effectively using about a 1-15 level spread, but very heavily weighted to 1-10.

From my blog campaign page, available to players, llistings for Damara (about 0.75 million people IMC):

Movers & Shakers of the Bloodstone Lands
Few other NPCs in the Bloodstone Lands are above 6th level - there are a few at 7th or 8th level, but probably none of 9th level or higher at this time.

Cleric & Druid
Friar Dugald of St Dionysus, Bishop of Goliad, Hero of Bloodstone, Clr-11
Banak of the Citadel of Assassins, High Priest of Loviatar, Clr-10
The High Druid of Leth, Drd-10
Christine Dragonsbane, the Lady of Bloodstone, Drd-7
Jaroo Ashstaff, the Druid of the Grove, Drd-7
Bishop Gilpin, Bishop of Valls, Clr-6
Abbess Mara Aloitius, Sister Superior of St Cecilia, Half-Elf Clr-5
Prior Mordrin of Moravin Friary, Ftr-4/Clr-5

Magic-User & Illusionist
Emelyn the Gray, Hero of Bloodstone, leader of the Twilight Riders. MU (Inv. ?) 11
Knellict of the Citadel of Assassins, MU-11
Celedon Kierney, Hero of Bloodstone, Half-Elf. MU-8/Thf-11
Sylvia of Praka, Baroness of Ostel. MU-8
Myrddin Viligoth, Twilight Rider. MU-7
Lady Rebecca of Ramvira Manor, M-U (Trans.) 5
Gabrielle of Bloodstone, Apprentice to Emelyn the Gray, M-U 5
Bistro Battenrooj, gnome adventurer of Impiltur, Ftr-4/Ill-4

Monk
Kane, Hero of Bloodstone, Grandmaster Emiritus of the Yellow Rose. Monk-11
Cantoule, Grand Master of Flowers, Monk-9
Temmenische, Master of Spring, Monk-8
Afrafa, Master of Dragons, Monk-6

Thief & Assassin
Tarkos Ree, Heliogabolus Guildmaster of Thieves. Thief-12
Cat 'One-Eye', "The Slave of Banak", Tiefling Assassin-11
Riordan Parnell, Hero of Bloodstone. Half-Elf Ftr-8/Thief-9
Dimian I Ree Banacath, King of Damara, Prince-Baron of Morov, Thief-8
Horse of Narfell, Ftr-4/Thief-6
Bahooha Shortsleeves, halfling adventurer of Impiltur, Ftr-3/Thf-4

Fighter
Adorabe, Nar veteran tribal leader, Ftr-15 (in the book he's 30th level!)
Timoshenko, Lord of the Citadel of Assassins, Ftr-10
Hedweck of White Worm Tribe, Vaasa, Ftr-9
Hernic of Zarach, Knight Commander of Ostel, half-elf Ftr-8
Garumbelly Hillsafar, Dwarf Clan Chief of Hillsafar (Vaasa), Ftr-7
Tranth, Lord-Steward of Bloodstone, Ftr-7
Dormythr, the Steward of Brandiar, Ftr-5
Hobart Bracegirdle, commander of the Kneebreakers, Halfling Ftr-5
Mykros, Commander of the Arcatan Ducal Guard, Ftr-5

Paladin
Gareth Dragonsbane, Duke of Vaasa, Baron of Bloodstone, Hero of Bloodstone, Pal-11
Kyrlraun of Impiltur, Leader of the Lords of Imphras II, Pal-10

Ranger
Olwen Forest Friend, Duke of Soravia, Hero of Bloodstone. Rgr-11
Marco Wildfeet, Ranger of Soravia. Rgr-8
Mariabronne the Rover, Vaasan Gate. Rgr-6

Other
Quillan the Wise, Sage of Bloodstone Village. hd 8d4, F/S as MU.
Hardby the Drunkard, Sage of Praka. hd 8d4, F/S as MU.
Queen Sambryl, the Queen-Regent of Impiltur. hd 4d4, F/S as MU.


All PCs start at 1st level. The current group after about 12 months of active PBP are Fighter-4, MU (Transmuter)-4, Cleric-4 and Ranger-2 (the newbie). At 4th level they're at the top end of 'regular character' type level, from 5th they'll be into the Exceptional category, 7th renowned, 10th legendary.

Quote from: Shasarak;1138104SHARK posed an interesting question regarding what he considered to be a competent professional Soldier.  He calculated that most Soldiers have to be at least 3rd level.

Shark has simply encountered the problem of systems with feats, etc associated with levels, which is that if you have more than 3-5 levels, you end up having to take ordinary everyday activities which essentially everyone can do with a relatively small amount of training and make them into "feats", and so essentially every NPC is going to be above 1st level, and everyone's character sheet is cluttered with dozens of things they hardly every do, obscuring the 2-3 things they do almost all the time.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1138139Shark has simply encountered the problem of systems with feats, etc associated with levels, which is that if you have more than 3-5 levels, you end up having to take ordinary everyday activities which essentially everyone can do with a relatively small amount of training and make them into "feats", and so essentially every NPC is going to be above 1st level, and everyone's character sheet is cluttered with dozens of things they hardly every do, obscuring the 2-3 things they do almost all the time.

You could be right but that would be for another thread to discuss.

What level NPCs does the Viking Hat DM recommend?