Quote from: Simlasa;613030I'd be curious to hear/read you expound on that point a bit. Where you think that disconnect is and ways to fix it. Maybe it's just your avatar (and location) that has me thinking you'd have particularly good insights there.

Unfortunately, I find it hard to articulate why D&D stumbles with high fantasy, but let me try.

D&D is all rampant materialism, not just in the central issue of acquiring new and better things and becoming more powerful, but its entire worldview. Because of the way the rules work and because of the ethos permeating its lierary sources, the default D&D setting is all physics and very little metaphysics. Even after you affix alignment labels to the various characters, great events don't hinge on moral conflicts, but physical confrontation. Morality and conviction are not driving forces, they are an accidental factor. Moreover, the outcome of a clash between two sides is a function of power, which means the world does not have an ingrained moral dimension. Morality is not simulated well in the rules and not explored in the common game structures.

To me, good high fantasy is about "wizardry and wild romance", adventures where being right or wrong, determination and internal conviction, great flaws and tragic mistakes, heroic destinies, redemption and fall are all important. High fantasy does not have to focus on "internal" landscapes (maybe they are an interesting area for storygames), and RPGs should be game first and literary emulation second, but to feel "right", a high fantasy game should be infused with a strong moral dimension, where choices are about high stakes, and power isn't the only answer (and when you have it, it comes with great responsibility).

There have been attempts in D&D to do this, but for me, they have usually rung false, because they took the easy way of taking the D&D framework and saying, "okay, these guys are bad and you guys are good, now go forth and kill" (most attempts), or because the morality they presented was dull, milquetoast and/or offensive (Dragonlance). There are a variety of social mechanics like hero points which do a decent job, but in a way, they tend to become another resource management issue, a part of the whole adventuring economy. And economy is once again about the material.

It is more interesting to play a good guy who isn't just good because the character sheet says so and he goes on quests against enemies who are identified evil, but because he is generous, just, and does the good thing even if it is not convenient or easy. It is more of a thing to aid the villagers against the Dark Riders if there is a stake involved beyond victory or defeat. For example, what if Isengrim the Bold falls in battle, and his sister, Hella the Fair has to pick up his sword from the battle site, taking up with it his heroic destiny (i.e. his levels minus one?), but having to pay the price of his failure to protect the innocents (in a way that had long-lasting impact)? That sort of thing, I feel, is somehow more essential to high fantasy than the massively overplayed "Hero's Journey" concept. I would like to see that captured in a game.

Now, I love old school D&D's amoral and morally relativistic assumptions, and also think it is interesting to explore what happens to morality in a world that doesn't respect it. Both of those feature in my games. But I'd be interested in seeing a good alternative that showed me how to incorporate high fantasy themes into vaguely D&Dish adventure fantasy games. I have a hunch this would take going back to the roots, examining which of these goals goes where, and rebuilding certain assumptions from the ground up, resulting in a game that would be very simple, very familiar, yet very new and strange. Maybe someone some day will do it.

Quote from: The Butcher;613035I'd lump ACKS with SWN: nothing strictly new but a comprehensive toolbox for those who want to get into the nitty-gritty of high-level domain management. Rebuilding the game from the ground up around this was more or less the authors' mission statement.

On a related topic, have you looked into An Echo Resounding (no links. Fucking phone) by SWN's own Kevin Crawford? It's a simpler, shorter, and most importantly, modular and supplementary take on domain management.

You may be right; I may be judging ACKS unfairly. But the reason I am doing it is, ACKS is paradoxically too close to the games I already enjoy to make me buy and try it. I will check out An Echo Resounding's take on domain management, although my own game already has that (although that part never got translated into English).

Quote from: danbuter;613105They are D&D with a few S&S trappings. That's it.

NONE of them allow you to just run a solo fighter or rogue and adventure all day, fighting giant monsters and powerful mages. They are all designed around your standard D&D party (and most of them include the cleric as a class, which is WAY off).

That's a good point; clerics are a big departure from S&S. Replacing them with AD&Dish Illusionists (who are suitably close to the sorcerers in Conan and other S&S tales) is a simple rule to bring D&D one step closer to the genre, even if much would still be missing.

It would be hard to do something about the party, though. RPGs are collaborative games, and you can't simply do away with that.

As most people said, I am pretty happy with what I have (I will probably using some sort of self done hack of a combination of Blood & Treasure, BX or BECMI, E6, and ACKS with my own modifications around magic for my rules set). I would also like to see more modular rule set modifications, because those are often things I can use or at least get ideas from.  

However, in contrast to what others have said, I really don't have much use for settings or adventures. I really want to make those myself and don't really need more inspiration than I have already from previously published stuff (the only setting that I can say I will be even getting any setting inspiration from is Mystara though).  Most of my inspiration comes from published or filmed fiction (Clark Ashton Smith, JRR Tolkien, Jack Vance, Roger Zelazny - Amber, Jack Kirby - The Eternals, and Twin Peaks mostly with maybe a bit of LOST thrown in). Probably some nonfiction too, as much as you can say myths and legends and that sort of thing are nonfiction.

I'm also a "give me more material, less rules" guy, but don't get me wrong, someone comes up with a new game mechanic that works better for what I need, I'll grab it.  Sometimes rule sets are also more then the sum of their parts, this can particularly be true with OSR/OGL games.

Melan, I'd be interested in how you think you could turn those high fantasy ideas into mechanics without heading down Storygame Alley.

Quote from: CRKrueger;613428Melan, I'd be interested in how you think you could turn those high fantasy ideas into mechanics without heading down Storygame Alley.

Me too, but I haven't thought about it seriously from the mechanical POV. I would like to see someone tackle the subject and do it justice.

I am currently focusing on a game about picaresque adventures at the turn of the 17th and 18th centuries, set in a not-quite-historically-accurate Europe. Basically, a game about stagecoaches, wig-wearing bandits, soldiers-of-fortune in baggy pants with halberds, killer nutcrackers, wandering students treating with the Devil, dark forests with talking wolves and so on. The basic mechanics and the structure of the rules would be familiar to D&D players, and it is about adventuring in a strange and dangerous world, but the end result is a significant departure from D&D (alignment, magic, the basic classes have all been revised, for example). This is even so the assumptions of picaresque map wonderfully to D&D's basic framework.

With a high fantasy hack, you would need to change less about the trappings (guy with a sword --> guy with a sword), but more about the basic assumptions of the game. It is less work, but harder.

I would like to see a clone, or hack of "Top Secret SI". Althought "Mercs, Spys, and Private Eyes" sounds like it might fit the bill nicely. Though I get the feeling that it might not be good for a gritty John le Carré, Len Deighton, The Sandbaggers, Queen and Country type of game.

I've already written mine.

I wanted a sci-fi D&D. One that didn't ditch the play structure of the dungeon the second laser pistols got involved.

So I wrote Hulks and Horrors.  And it's fantastic.  The playtest was one of the best games I've run in years.

This year will be about getting the draft to second phase and seeing it published.

WFRP 1e/2e -based rules modified for Cowboys. Really, anything that's not another D&D plus anything the baseline rules haven't been used for very much yet. The 'nother D&Ds and 'nother-genre D&Ds are starting to run out of new ground to cover (short of heavy mechanical tinkering, at which point: why clone?).

Quote from: AnthonyRoberson;613019I would really dig a good OSR style Western RPG or some well researched historical supplements. I have started working on a campaign myself based in a sort of weird fantasy influenced English Civil War.

Hmm, a western could be good.

As could some more historical settings.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;613771Hmm, a western could be good.

As could some more historical settings.

RPGPundit

Yes, I've thought about writing one of these as well. I did a lot of writing and research for PIG's Coyote Trail that never made it into the final book. Or we could approach Brett about doing a conversion, but I don't get the feeling he's a big fan of old school play. . .

I'm happy with Labyrinth Lord. My group is running pretty smoothly with only a few minor house rules, and I'm basically publishing some of the better adventures I've sent them on.

I'm currently working on additions to my Amherth campaign setting, published for Labyrinth Lord. A job promotion has set back my release schedule quite a bit, but I'm still chugging along, writing up the nation gazetteers. I recently published Ghoul Keep and the Ghoul Lands (see sig) which is a fantasy horror mini-setting that can be dropped into virtually any campaign since it details an isolated kingdom surrounded by mountains. But it was mainly a test run to set up a nation-building template for the other gazeteers.

I've toyed with the idea of making (yet another) Dreamwalker conversion, this time using old school rules, but really, I'm thinking a "systemless" primer to dream-based adventures might see greater use.

I've also toyed with the idea of an old school Gangs of New York setting, which I think would be cool. And I've even considered a conversion of my Vice Squad: Miami Nights setting, but as was talked about in another thread, it seems to be hard to drum up interest in playing mundane characters, even over-the-top 80s kind of mundane characters unless you add some kind of kewl powerz or supernatural abilities into the game. At least, that's been my experience in gaming and publishing.  

Pete

I'm working on one thats sort of half-OSR/half a take on Mazes and Minotaurs called Druids& Dolmens which assumes a Celtic myth-based retro game.

Outside of specifically OSR, two systems I'd love retro-clones for would be DC Heroes and Victory's James Bond 007 system.

Quote from: Melan;613167Unfortunately, I find it hard to articulate why D&D stumbles with high fantasy, but let me try....

To me, good high fantasy is about "wizardry and wild romance", adventures where being right or wrong, determination and internal conviction, great flaws and tragic mistakes, heroic destinies, redemption and fall are all important. High fantasy does not have to focus on "internal" landscapes (maybe they are an interesting area for storygames), and RPGs should be game first and literary emulation second, but to feel "right", a high fantasy game should be infused with a strong moral dimension, where choices are about high stakes, and power isn't the only answer (and when you have it, it comes with great responsibility).

maybe Pendragon?

Quote from: Melan;613167I'd be interested in seeing a good alternative that showed me how to incorporate high fantasy themes into vaguely D&Dish adventure fantasy games. I have a hunch this would take going back to the roots, examining which of these goals goes where, and rebuilding certain assumptions from the ground up, resulting in a game that would be very simple, very familiar, yet very new and strange. Maybe someone some day will do it.

Interesting. By 'going back to the roots' you mean the more original, older forms of high fantasy fiction. If so, which books?

It would be strange and might not resemble D&D. I think the game would have to take a step towards more colourful stats such Honour, Glory, Perfidy and elements of Romance, including love, should feature strongly although I have never seen an example of this as a game mechanic.

Quote from: TristramEvans;613970I'm working on one thats sort of half-OSR/half a take on Mazes and Minotaurs called Druids& Dolmens which assumes a Celtic myth-based retro game.

That sounds intriguing...