What is your opinion on "weeaboo fightan magic"?

S'mon · October 18, 2017, 02:04:28 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1001292Modern fantasy settings operate on the conceit that nature operates according to real physics and then magic is tacked on to let you cheat physics, regardless of how illogical this is when you stop to think about it.

'Modern' here as in Modernist - this idea of magic as unnatural features strongly in 1930s Swords & Sorcery (REH especially, also Leiber et al) and the 1960s revival (Vance, Moorcock sort-of). You see it in OD&D through 1e-2e-3e, but 4e rejected it and went with more of a mythic tone where magic is a natural* part of the world. 5e went back more to pre-4e; although almost every 5e PC gets magic so the distinction feels less strong.

*No Anti-Magic Shell spell in 4e!

S'mon · October 18, 2017, 02:14:25 AM

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1001411To be fair, in BECM and AD&D, the high level fighter with even a simple magic sword was often more significant in resolving the normal situations than the magic user. Especially with specialization, and enemies who would never fail their saves. And the swords were often intelligent items that gave the fighters access to daily spells.

It is really 3e where the fighter became truly inconsequential.

IME BECM and 1e have pretty good class balance (except possibly Thieves) despite the strong magic/mundane distinction. 3e systematically stripped away every pre-3e Fighter advantage - good saves, high durability vs monsters - and allowed Clerics to be better Fighters than the Fighter via buff spells.

You definitely can have a "magic is special" game that is still reasonably balanced - tough durable high-DPR mundane PCs, fragile spellcasters with limited spell resources.

Gronan of Simmerya · October 18, 2017, 03:24:09 AM

I might give an opinion if I could figure out what the fuck the OP is talking about.

Christopher Brady · October 18, 2017, 04:05:14 AM

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1001465I might give an opinion if I could figure out what the fuck the OP is talking about.

It's something, and I sincerely don't want to say this, but it's something after your time.

Also, saving throws mean little when half damage can (and I freely admit not always, but can) wipe your party out in one hit anyway.

crkrueger · October 18, 2017, 06:28:30 AM

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1001465I might give an opinion if I could figure out what the fuck the OP is talking about.

Google up some Dragonball Z and watch.

Willie the Duck · October 18, 2017, 11:50:50 AM

Quote from: S'mon;1001460IME BECM and 1e have pretty good class balance (except possibly Thieves) despite the strong magic/mundane distinction. 3e systematically stripped away every pre-3e Fighter advantage - good saves, high durability vs monsters - and allowed Clerics to be better Fighters than the Fighter via buff spells.

You definitely can have a "magic is special" game that is still reasonably balanced - tough durable high-DPR mundane PCs, fragile spellcasters with limited spell resources.

Reasonably, and best for the levels people mostly played at. There's no doubt that 'leader' after name level was considered a significant part of the fighter compensation package. How you mentally include that in 'good class balance' is a question that'll never be resolved.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1001468Also, saving throws mean little when half damage can (and I freely admit not always, but can) wipe your party out in one hit anyway.

That very specific example is a possible one. I've kind of lost what grander point it supports, so I don;t know if I agree if it does.

fearsomepirate · October 18, 2017, 11:55:01 AM

Quote from: S'mon;1001460IME BECM and 1e have pretty good class balance (except possibly Thieves) despite the strong magic/mundane distinction. 3e systematically stripped away every pre-3e Fighter advantage - good saves, high durability vs monsters - and allowed Clerics to be better Fighters than the Fighter via buff spells.

Don't forget removing every pre-3.x caster weakness, such as long casting times, easily interruptible spells, little use of magic items, and nigh-immunity of powerful monsters to certain spells. Not to mention being able to amp yourself up with certain feats.

S'mon · October 18, 2017, 12:14:12 PM

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1001520Reasonably, and best for the levels people mostly played at. There's no doubt that 'leader' after name level was considered a significant part of the fighter compensation package. How you mentally include that in 'good class balance' is a question that'll never be resolved.

I've run high level 1e & BECM where the Fighters kept pace with the MUs on a personal level, not as leaders. Better toughness - hp & saves - plus magic items like +5 swords & girdles of giant strength, +5 plate etc. Unhittable ACs and twice the MU hp.

fearsomepirate · October 18, 2017, 12:14:26 PM

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1001412Which is very is easy to bypass

How do you easily bypass Magic Resistance in AD&D? There's always the old "be well above 11th level" trick in 1e. What else is there?

Gronan of Simmerya · October 18, 2017, 01:39:04 PM

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1001468It's something, and I sincerely don't want to say this, but it's something after your time.

Oh, there's lots of stuff after my time. Like "I remember the D&D cartoon when I was seven!" Er.. I was in my late twenties, so I felt very different about it.

If that's actually the title it's called by, it's an odd title.

BoxCrayonTales · October 18, 2017, 01:40:12 PM

Quote from: CRKrueger;1001483Google up some Dragonball Z and watch.

I did not have DBZ in mind when I wrote that. I just figured "fightan magic" as a term covered anything that does not exist in reality.

Christopher Brady · October 18, 2017, 01:43:52 PM

I'm OK with it, because I've watched movies and shows, read historically based fantasy and played video games based in those settings that had that sort of level of mythology in it. In fact, the real oddity is the sheer power level that heroic 'wizards' tend to have. Magic is often, not always, but often is the purview of evil, so putting it into the hands of heroes is still, after all these years, a bit of a disconnect to me.

Gronan of Simmerya · October 18, 2017, 01:53:07 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1001542I did not have DBZ in mind when I wrote that. I just figured "fightan magic" as a term covered anything that does not exist in reality.

Dragons?
Undead?
Gargoyles?
Magic swords?
Wizards?

I'm STILL not 100% sure what the hell you're talking about. It seems to be related somehow to wire-fu, but I'm not sure that's all.

crkrueger · October 18, 2017, 01:59:07 PM

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1001540If that's actually the title it's called by, it's an odd title.

Weaboo is a slang derogatory term referring to a non-asian who is a fan of all things Japanese. It usually gets tossed at white guys who are heavily into Manga/Anime.

When the Tome of Battles: The Book of Nine Swords came out for 3.5e, it gave fighters different powers that made them more like Anime or Manga Wuxia-type fighters. 1d4 chan refers to the book as The Book of Weaboo Fightan Magic, which is where the term came from.

Gronan of Simmerya · October 18, 2017, 02:03:32 PM

Quote from: CRKrueger;1001556Weaboo is a slang derogatory term referring to a non-asian who is a fan of all things Japanese. It usually gets tossed at white guys who are heavily into Manga/Anime.

When the Tome of Battles: The Book of Nine Swords came out for 3.5e, it gave fighters different powers that made them more like Anime or Manga Wuxia-type fighters. 1d4 chan refers to the book as The Book of Weaboo Fightan Magic, which is where the term came from.

Oh, so it's shit like "I kill on you with my NINE DISAPPOINTED VIRGINS TESTICLE PUNCH!" sort of thing?