Quote from: Pat;1001295Again, what stories? Because arguing that all myths are alike is very confused.

One could make an argument with the Christian Bible.  The Indian Ramayana, Mahabharata, quite a few Celtic hero myths, the Grecian Odyssey and Iliad among many others.

Stop being disingenuous.

What Celtic myth was it that had something like somebody throwing three spears, running along them while in flight, landing and slaying a fourth target before the other three spears hit?  Was it the Hound?  Honestly, I can't remember and lunch is over.

Quote from: Manic Modron;1001333What Celtic myth was it that had something like somebody throwing three spears, running along them while in flight, landing and slaying a fourth target before the other three spears hit?  Was it the Hound?  Honestly, I can't remember and lunch is over.

Cuchulain I believe.

I think it depends on the setting as well as the style of the combat system and the nature of the specific superhuman abilities.

I agree with Pat that different mythologies (and settings) have different flavors of feats, and than many feats in games may not feel appropriate in many settings.

Many of the feats I have seen in games seem more like super-hero powers or "I get to have spell effects too" or "fighters need magic because the combat system balance and/or would make it lame to be a fighter if we don't give them 'cool' powers", which I don't feel fit many mythologies let alone game settings I'd want to play. On the other hand, I can imagine various flavors of game/setting which would have warriors developing supernatural powers that do feel like they fit in a setting I would like (and/or in a non-gamey mythological setting). The examples I have seen tend not to be what I'd want, though.

For example, GURPS Martial Arts (which I otherwise mostly like) has various optional rules for mystic martial arts powers, and some of them are subtle and easier for me to want to use than others. Some of them give the characters with them super-hero-like abilities that make the people with those abilities crazy-better than those without, which fits unrealistic martial arts films well, but seems to me like overkill that's depressing for everyone else in other genres.

I took a peek at Tome of Battle and although I'm not a D&D player and expected it to be not the sort of thing I like at all, I thought what I saw seemed er, I was surprised... it's still not my style of game, but for the style it is, the part I saw I thought seemed pretty interesting and reasonable, for the most part, and even had some interesting ideas I could see adapting. In fact, some things reminded me of things I already do in GURPS, though instead of having classes that get them at certain levels, and having them be like super-powers, they're skills, advantages, or just effects of high skill or doing certain things. For example, in ToB there is a Warblade class with "stance" abilities with brand names like Battle Clarity, Battle Cunning, Battle Skill, Battle Mastery, which let a character with enough Warblade levels to gain bonuses based on awareness, which is more or less akin to effects I use in GURPS from published and house rules for Combat Reflexes, house-rule Combat Sense skill level, perception, weapon and unarmed combat skill levels, tactics skill, using the Wait maneuver, etc., so those are effects I want, but I don't really like the style/organization of classes giving named super-powers.

Fighters always had this. They are called magic swords. And despite casters getting more spells, there were many monsters that could only be defeated by fighters with magic weapons (golems most obviously, but most outsiders have a healthy amount of magic resistance)

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1001299While I would also like to hear that list, he's doing so no more than you are. "Those stories have people shooting arrows hundreds of miles, swallowing rivers, cleaving mountains in half, fighting deadly monsters on their own, and talking to animals and inanimate objects" is no different from "Kamehameha blasts" and "dancing between the trees on wires or shooting blasts of fire." What are the myths that you are thinking of, and whose are they, that they are different from the ones he is?

Also, where did he argue that "all myths are alike?"

My examples were wire fu and ki powers from wuxia films and video fighting games, not myth. Which is the point -- he's arguing that because some myths have fighters with supernatural abilities, that why shouldn't D&D implement the largely cinematic, over the top, and very modern "weeaboo fightan magic"? But the two aren't the same. There are tons of myths where heroes have supernatural abilities, but in most the world the fighter types remain grounded. There might be a Herakles who can lift the heavens, but he's a singular exception. Odysseus by contrast is mostly known for being clever. He certainly had great physical prowess, as exemplified by the stringing the bow test, but the Greek heroes generally didn't shoot arrows hundreds of miles at the slightest excuse.

Most heroes are supernatural, but it tends to be Captain America-level. Able to hold their own among wizards and demigods, but still at least plausibly human. And D&D already accounts for much of that level of supernatural heroism, with hit points and other mechanical bonuses. But once you start adding all the abilities from all the myths around the world, you lose that and D&D becomes Exalted. It won't feel like a lot of the core western myths that underlie at least part of D&D's eclectic heritage, like the Song of Roland or the Arthurian myths. Which is actually fine, if you want that type of game. I love Indian and Celtic myths. But it won't even feel like the Kalevala or the Ramayana or the Mabinogion, because those each have their own specific flavor. What it will create is a hodge-podge, heavily biased toward the very magical end.

And if everything is warp-spasms and avatars with impossible arrows, then the regular fighter dies. And with the death of the fighter, you lose the ordinary person, who by virtue of their skill and prowess, rather than super-powers, becomes exceptional. You also lose the simple "I just want to play a fighter" option, and make every class more complex.

Which is a very significant shift in the tone of the game, and should be done because you want that shift. Trying to justify it because there are mythic examples of nearly anything is missing the point.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1001315The surreal situations commonly depicted in myths and fairy tales are impossible to pull off in D&D due to the setting assumptions baked into the rules.

Good start of a list. And yes, I've always been fascinated by the shifting perspectives, dream logic, and other surreal elements that commonly show up in myth. But they're really hard to capture in D&D, though I'm not sure if it's a mechanical thing, or a player thing -- it's really hard to get modern people to drop the post-Enlightenment scientific mindset. But things like Pantagruel being small enough to fit in a room, and big enough that an entire nation of people live in his teeth, and not because he shifted size, are fascinating. Or Thor draining the cup attached to the sea, or a million other examples. There almost needs to be a dream-quest overlay.

I believe the name is apropos, and depending on the setting's tone I might suspend disbelief enough to love it -- but usually no.

Quote from: JeremyR;1001340Fighters always had this. They are called magic swords. And despite casters getting more spells, there were many monsters that could only be defeated by fighters with magic weapons (golems most obviously, but most outsiders have a healthy amount of magic resistance)

Yes, because a +3 to +6 with a chance to do 0 damage is absolutely the equivalent to someone being able to throw 7-15 dice, halved on a successful resistance.

And there's something else you've completely discounted:  Most of the myths are about incredible skilled fighting men (note the word MOST) rather than having a battery of magical gear do all the word for them, even those that had quite a few toys, like Perseus for example, was exception despite the help.

Quote from: JeremyR;1001340Fighters always had this. They are called magic swords. And despite casters getting more spells, there were many monsters that could only be defeated by fighters with magic weapons (golems most obviously, but most outsiders have a healthy amount of magic resistance)

This is like saying wizards shouldn't have spells because they can just have a bunch of wands and potions and stuff to do the magic for them.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1001357Yes, because a +3 to +6 with a chance to do 0 damage is absolutely the equivalent to someone being able to throw 7-15 dice, halved on a successful resistance.

MR neutralizes magic entirely. A fighter with sufficiently high THAC0 and legendary gear is neutralized only by being dead.

Quote from: Xuc xac;1001382This is like saying wizards shouldn't have spells because they can just have a bunch of wands and potions and stuff to do the magic for them.

No, it's absolutely nothing like saying that.

But that would be a good way to handle wizards.

To be fair, in BECM and AD&D, the high level fighter with even a simple magic sword was often more significant in resolving the normal situations than the magic user. Especially with specialization, and enemies who would never fail their saves. And the swords were often intelligent items that gave the fighters access to daily spells.

It is really 3e where the fighter became truly inconsequential.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1001408MR neutralizes magic entirely. A fighter with sufficiently high THAC0 and legendary gear is neutralized only by being dead.

Which is very is easy to bypass, often with a single effect that ends the fighter never needing to touch the HP.  I don't know of any D&D based game that gives the Fighting men types Magic Resistance...

Doesn't mean it doesn't exist, mind you.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1001412Which is very is easy to bypass, often with a single effect that ends the fighter never needing to touch the HP.  I don't know of any D&D based game that gives the Fighting men types Magic Resistance...

Doesn't mean it doesn't exist, mind you.

Pre-3e, fighters usually had the best saving throws, and often had the best magic armor and other protective gear which added to their saves, which was often better (percent-wise) than Magic Resistance. And in oD&D, fighters were immune to magical fear and enemy invisibility spells.