Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on September 09, 2022, 12:31:32 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 09, 2022, 12:26:38 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on September 09, 2022, 11:59:40 AM
I would have thought someone would have made an OSR like retro version of runequest by now, but as far as I know, no such thing exists

Isn't OpenQuest exactly that?

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/347827/OpenQuest-3rd-Edition

https://openquestrpg.com/srd/

This is it... Also, most of the d100 mechanics have stayed pretty stagnant (and I mean that in a good way).

Open Quest is great, incidentally. There's also 'Magic World' that pretty much stays with the older style too.

And there's also a direct D&D type clone using the D100 mechanics instead, but it's basically a dungeon crawler with the old races elves, dwarves, and what have you. I can't think of the name of it at the mo'.

Quote from: ForgottenF on September 09, 2022, 11:59:40 AM

Quote from: Lunamancer on September 08, 2022, 11:45:21 PM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on September 07, 2022, 06:54:41 PM
This does touch on a key point: "old school" gaming in general is not necessarily the same as the OSR specifically, although there is a lot of overlap. In my experience the OSR specifically does mostly refer to D&D retroclones of one type or another, although retroclones for other pre-1990 systems are showing up these days.

Well, yeah. It's not OSR without the R. There has to be a certain critical mass to call it a revival or a renaissance. If we had a massive movement of people playing an updated, cloned, or modified version of, say, Star Frontiers, I could see people calling that OSR.

I think D&D has a few major factors that makes it easier to get that critical mass.

1) The d20 OGL,
2) The perception some hold that the current D&D license holders are ruining the game,
3) That it was as popular as it was.

There doesn't seem to be much demand for an OSR for other games. I don't know if it's just that things like Call of Cthulhu or Cyberpunk haven't had the kind of edition wars that D&D has, or if it's down to chaosium, r talsorian, cubicle 7 etc not being quite so much a pack of gibbering baboons as the folks at wizards appear to be.

I would have thought someone would have made an OSR like retro version of runequest by now, but as far as I know, no such thing exists

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 09, 2022, 01:43:37 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on September 09, 2022, 11:59:40 AM

Quote from: Lunamancer on September 08, 2022, 11:45:21 PM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on September 07, 2022, 06:54:41 PM
This does touch on a key point: "old school" gaming in general is not necessarily the same as the OSR specifically, although there is a lot of overlap. In my experience the OSR specifically does mostly refer to D&D retroclones of one type or another, although retroclones for other pre-1990 systems are showing up these days.

Well, yeah. It's not OSR without the R. There has to be a certain critical mass to call it a revival or a renaissance. If we had a massive movement of people playing an updated, cloned, or modified version of, say, Star Frontiers, I could see people calling that OSR.

I think D&D has a few major factors that makes it easier to get that critical mass.

1) The d20 OGL,
2) The perception some hold that the current D&D license holders are ruining the game,
3) That it was as popular as it was.

There doesn't seem to be much demand for an OSR for other games. I don't know if it's just that things like Call of Cthulhu or Cyberpunk haven't had the kind of edition wars that D&D has, or if it's down to chaosium, r talsorian, cubicle 7 etc not being quite so much a pack of gibbering baboons as the folks at wizards appear to be.

I would have thought someone would have made an OSR like retro version of runequest by now, but as far as I know, no such thing exists

If your definition is exclusionary of any game other than D&D.

Classic Traveller is doing very well if you go by the numbers on DriveThruRPG (the only sales numbers easily accessible). A little quick research shows that R. Talsorian's Cyberpunk 2020 and Mekton Zeta are doing comparable sales as well. If you want to only use retroclones, then Cepheus Engine is also doing pretty good in sales.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 09, 2022, 02:05:56 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 09, 2022, 01:43:37 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on September 09, 2022, 11:59:40 AM

Quote from: Lunamancer on September 08, 2022, 11:45:21 PM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on September 07, 2022, 06:54:41 PM
This does touch on a key point: "old school" gaming in general is not necessarily the same as the OSR specifically, although there is a lot of overlap. In my experience the OSR specifically does mostly refer to D&D retroclones of one type or another, although retroclones for other pre-1990 systems are showing up these days.

Well, yeah. It's not OSR without the R. There has to be a certain critical mass to call it a revival or a renaissance. If we had a massive movement of people playing an updated, cloned, or modified version of, say, Star Frontiers, I could see people calling that OSR.

I think D&D has a few major factors that makes it easier to get that critical mass.

1) The d20 OGL,
2) The perception some hold that the current D&D license holders are ruining the game,
3) That it was as popular as it was.

There doesn't seem to be much demand for an OSR for other games. I don't know if it's just that things like Call of Cthulhu or Cyberpunk haven't had the kind of edition wars that D&D has, or if it's down to chaosium, r talsorian, cubicle 7 etc not being quite so much a pack of gibbering baboons as the folks at wizards appear to be.

I would have thought someone would have made an OSR like retro version of runequest by now, but as far as I know, no such thing exists

If your definition is exclusionary of any game other than D&D.

Classic Traveller is doing very well if you go by the numbers on DriveThruRPG (the only sales numbers easily accessible). A little quick research shows that R. Talsorian's Cyberpunk 2020 and Mekton Zeta are doing comparable sales as well. If you want to only use retroclones, then Cepheus Engine is also doing pretty good in sales.

How dare you exclude non D&D based games from the definition of something that started as old D&D editions based games only!

Don't you know you're hurting the fee fees of those other games!?

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 09, 2022, 02:23:11 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 09, 2022, 02:05:56 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 09, 2022, 01:43:37 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on September 09, 2022, 11:59:40 AM

Quote from: Lunamancer on September 08, 2022, 11:45:21 PM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on September 07, 2022, 06:54:41 PM
This does touch on a key point: "old school" gaming in general is not necessarily the same as the OSR specifically, although there is a lot of overlap. In my experience the OSR specifically does mostly refer to D&D retroclones of one type or another, although retroclones for other pre-1990 systems are showing up these days.

Well, yeah. It's not OSR without the R. There has to be a certain critical mass to call it a revival or a renaissance. If we had a massive movement of people playing an updated, cloned, or modified version of, say, Star Frontiers, I could see people calling that OSR.

I think D&D has a few major factors that makes it easier to get that critical mass.

1) The d20 OGL,
2) The perception some hold that the current D&D license holders are ruining the game,
3) That it was as popular as it was.

There doesn't seem to be much demand for an OSR for other games. I don't know if it's just that things like Call of Cthulhu or Cyberpunk haven't had the kind of edition wars that D&D has, or if it's down to chaosium, r talsorian, cubicle 7 etc not being quite so much a pack of gibbering baboons as the folks at wizards appear to be.

I would have thought someone would have made an OSR like retro version of runequest by now, but as far as I know, no such thing exists

If your definition is exclusionary of any game other than D&D.

Classic Traveller is doing very well if you go by the numbers on DriveThruRPG (the only sales numbers easily accessible). A little quick research shows that R. Talsorian's Cyberpunk 2020 and Mekton Zeta are doing comparable sales as well. If you want to only use retroclones, then Cepheus Engine is also doing pretty good in sales.

How dare you exclude non D&D based games from the definition of something that started as old D&D editions based games only!

Don't you know you're hurting the fee fees of those other games!?

And thus it was spoke that there shall be no other games except those based upon D&D, amen. There can only be diversity bounded by D&D rules! - Wow, that almost sounds like something the Woke would say....

Never mind that there were still a lot of popular games in the past that are still being played today that don't continue to suckle off the teat of D&D.....

Oh, wait. That's right. To you they are not REAL OSR.....

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 09, 2022, 02:47:44 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 09, 2022, 02:23:11 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 09, 2022, 02:05:56 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 09, 2022, 01:43:37 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on September 09, 2022, 11:59:40 AM

Quote from: Lunamancer on September 08, 2022, 11:45:21 PM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on September 07, 2022, 06:54:41 PM
This does touch on a key point: "old school" gaming in general is not necessarily the same as the OSR specifically, although there is a lot of overlap. In my experience the OSR specifically does mostly refer to D&D retroclones of one type or another, although retroclones for other pre-1990 systems are showing up these days.

Well, yeah. It's not OSR without the R. There has to be a certain critical mass to call it a revival or a renaissance. If we had a massive movement of people playing an updated, cloned, or modified version of, say, Star Frontiers, I could see people calling that OSR.

I think D&D has a few major factors that makes it easier to get that critical mass.

1) The d20 OGL,
2) The perception some hold that the current D&D license holders are ruining the game,
3) That it was as popular as it was.

There doesn't seem to be much demand for an OSR for other games. I don't know if it's just that things like Call of Cthulhu or Cyberpunk haven't had the kind of edition wars that D&D has, or if it's down to chaosium, r talsorian, cubicle 7 etc not being quite so much a pack of gibbering baboons as the folks at wizards appear to be.

I would have thought someone would have made an OSR like retro version of runequest by now, but as far as I know, no such thing exists

If your definition is exclusionary of any game other than D&D.

Classic Traveller is doing very well if you go by the numbers on DriveThruRPG (the only sales numbers easily accessible). A little quick research shows that R. Talsorian's Cyberpunk 2020 and Mekton Zeta are doing comparable sales as well. If you want to only use retroclones, then Cepheus Engine is also doing pretty good in sales.

How dare you exclude non D&D based games from the definition of something that started as old D&D editions based games only!

Don't you know you're hurting the fee fees of those other games!?

And thus it was spoke that there shall be no other games except those based upon D&D, amen. There can only be diversity bounded by D&D rules! - Wow, that almost sounds like something the Woke would say....

Never mind that there were still a lot of popular games in the past that are still being played today that don't continue to suckle off the teat of D&D.....

Oh, wait. That's right. To you they are not REAL OSR.....

For someone who pretends to be very smart you're really dumb.

ALL definitions have to be exclusionary, otherwise they don't define shit.

Yes OSR means based on old D&D rules. No, it doesn't include other old rules/games. Just like the definition of woman can't include men or females of other species.

Because to define something you have to exclude everything that's not it, else the definition doesn't define shit.

Why not include old games from the early 2000s? Aren't you excluding those other games as not really Old School?

Why not include Toon in the definition of lovecraftian games? Aren't you excluding it?

I'll repeat myself: For someone who thinks of himself as very smurt you sure are dumb.

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 09, 2022, 04:22:01 PM


The original definition of OSR wasn't exclusionary to only mean D&D derived rules - it only became so later on.

But hey, when all you got for a rebuttal is obfuscation and insults, then at least I know I'm smarter than you.

Quote from: estar on September 07, 2022, 12:27:51 PM

Quote from: Zaph on September 06, 2022, 12:12:49 AM
I was interested to see what people considered the core ideas or principles behind OSR.

That you can use existing open content to support classic editions of D&D with a full range of work either shared or produced commercially.

A major side effect starting in the late 2000s is that open content plus the ease of use of digital content means that anybody who cares too can pursue whatever project they see fit that could be done with the various classic editions. Most are projects that the original folks that were involved would have never considered.

Another major side effect is reigniting a hobby and an industry centered around the classic editions mainly by showing folks how classic editions rules can work in actual play that is fun and actual works that are good.

Quote from: Zaph on September 06, 2022, 12:12:49 AM
I was interested to see what people considered the core ideas or principles behind OSR. With new games coming out, I'd say it's significantly more than a nostalgia movement.

This is a fool's game. It boils down to the whims of individual authors or teams/companies. One unique aspect of the OSR compared to other niches of the RPG industry and hobby is that it is not dominated by the creative output of a single author or company like most RPGs.

Out of what is there only Cepheus has approached this for the Traveller RPG. And that is only for non-Third Imperium settings. Mongoose is the dominant player but not dominant creatively due to the legal barriers caused by the Traveller Aid Society 3PP program. Nobody in the Cepheus community is going to lock up their original setting IP behind the gates of that program. This is the reason for Cepheus existence. If Mongoose was more like Pinnacle and Savage Worlds it would dominate Traveller/Cepheus. Mongoose has done some good work in expanding what Traveller covers like with Deepnight Revelation.

While Fate and Savage Worlds have thriving 3P communities around them they are both dominated by Evil Hat and Pinnacle both in sales and creatively.

Quote from: Zaph on September 06, 2022, 12:12:49 AM
Also, one could just choose to pare down character classes or ignore the redefining of orcs and what have you, so I don't think it's just those elements either.

It only matters what you think about those topic. And if you want to share (or publish), your skill at putting together a coherent presentation. That the strength of the OSR, that anybody can step up to the plate and contribute if they have the time and interest.

For example, my Basic Rules rules for the Majestic Fantasy RPG include markdown files of the rulebook and their content is open content under the OGL. Swords & Wizardry has a rtf file that can be downloaded of Swords & Wizardry Core rules. With either of those as a starting point, you can very quickly put together a fairly complete set of rules for your own use or share.

If you want to experience the "true" OSR then I recommend starting with works that are open content, make it clear what is open content, and make it easy to use the open content by sharing files and stuff like that.

For example my Blackmarsh here
https://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/blackmarsh_srd.zip

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 09, 2022, 12:26:38 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on September 09, 2022, 11:59:40 AM
I would have thought someone would have made an OSR like retro version of runequest by now, but as far as I know, no such thing exists

Isn't OpenQuest exactly that?

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/347827/OpenQuest-3rd-Edition

https://openquestrpg.com/srd/

Quote from: estar on September 07, 2022, 10:07:46 PM

Quote from: Palleon on September 07, 2022, 08:20:32 PM
How can there be core tenants, if no one even agrees on what OSR means any more?

Hint: Nobody ever agreed on what OSR meant speaking as someone involved from before the term was coined.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on September 09, 2022, 12:31:32 PM
And there's also a direct D&D type clone using the D100 mechanics instead, but it's basically a dungeon crawler with the old races elves, dwarves, and what have you. I can't think of the name of it at the mo'.

Quote from: ForgottenF on September 09, 2022, 05:37:54 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 09, 2022, 12:26:38 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on September 09, 2022, 11:59:40 AM
I would have thought someone would have made an OSR like retro version of runequest by now, but as far as I know, no such thing exists

Isn't OpenQuest exactly that?

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/347827/OpenQuest-3rd-Edition

https://openquestrpg.com/srd/

See, this is why I started posting here: So people can tell me about games I didn't know about.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 09, 2022, 04:51:27 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 09, 2022, 04:22:01 PM


The original definition of OSR wasn't exclusionary to only mean D&D derived rules - it only became so later on.

But hey, when all you got for a rebuttal is obfuscation and insults, then at least I know I'm smarter than you.

Quote from: estar on September 07, 2022, 12:27:51 PM

Quote from: Zaph on September 06, 2022, 12:12:49 AM
I was interested to see what people considered the core ideas or principles behind OSR.

That you can use existing open content to support classic editions of D&D with a full range of work either shared or produced commercially.

A major side effect starting in the late 2000s is that open content plus the ease of use of digital content means that anybody who cares too can pursue whatever project they see fit that could be done with the various classic editions. Most are projects that the original folks that were involved would have never considered.

Another major side effect is reigniting a hobby and an industry centered around the classic editions mainly by showing folks how classic editions rules can work in actual play that is fun and actual works that are good.

Quote from: Zaph on September 06, 2022, 12:12:49 AM
I was interested to see what people considered the core ideas or principles behind OSR. With new games coming out, I'd say it's significantly more than a nostalgia movement.

This is a fool's game. It boils down to the whims of individual authors or teams/companies. One unique aspect of the OSR compared to other niches of the RPG industry and hobby is that it is not dominated by the creative output of a single author or company like most RPGs.

Out of what is there only Cepheus has approached this for the Traveller RPG. And that is only for non-Third Imperium settings. Mongoose is the dominant player but not dominant creatively due to the legal barriers caused by the Traveller Aid Society 3PP program. Nobody in the Cepheus community is going to lock up their original setting IP behind the gates of that program. This is the reason for Cepheus existence. If Mongoose was more like Pinnacle and Savage Worlds it would dominate Traveller/Cepheus. Mongoose has done some good work in expanding what Traveller covers like with Deepnight Revelation.

While Fate and Savage Worlds have thriving 3P communities around them they are both dominated by Evil Hat and Pinnacle both in sales and creatively.

Quote from: Zaph on September 06, 2022, 12:12:49 AM
Also, one could just choose to pare down character classes or ignore the redefining of orcs and what have you, so I don't think it's just those elements either.

It only matters what you think about those topic. And if you want to share (or publish), your skill at putting together a coherent presentation. That the strength of the OSR, that anybody can step up to the plate and contribute if they have the time and interest.

For example, my Basic Rules rules for the Majestic Fantasy RPG include markdown files of the rulebook and their content is open content under the OGL. Swords & Wizardry has a rtf file that can be downloaded of Swords & Wizardry Core rules. With either of those as a starting point, you can very quickly put together a fairly complete set of rules for your own use or share.

If you want to experience the "true" OSR then I recommend starting with works that are open content, make it clear what is open content, and make it easy to use the open content by sharing files and stuff like that.

For example my Blackmarsh here
https://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/blackmarsh_srd.zip

Hint, no you're not smarter than a doorknob, much less myself.

Quote from: ForgottenF on September 09, 2022, 05:39:31 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on September 09, 2022, 12:31:32 PM
And there's also a direct D&D type clone using the D100 mechanics instead, but it's basically a dungeon crawler with the old races elves, dwarves, and what have you. I can't think of the name of it at the mo'.

If you think of it, I wouldn't mind knowing what it is. I was actually considering making a post asking if that sort of thing was already out there.