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Author Topic: What is everyone's thoughts on Chaoisum's OGL they released?  (Read 17051 times)

DocJones

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What is everyone's thoughts on Chaoisum's OGL they released?
« Reply #135 on: April 21, 2020, 07:02:06 PM »
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;1127389
I feel like I'm missing something, but I'm not sure what you're getting at. Just like the "open source" d100 system variants that RPGPundit mentions, C&C made use of the OGL and open content from the SRD. (Or are you saying yeah C&C did that, but it didn't need to? If so, I'd say that's debatable, as it might be possible to "clone" the game mechanics, but without the OGL you'd need to be very cautious about terminology and such in order to avoid potential copyright issues. Using the OGL and open content terminology makes many of those issues moot.)

Castles & Crusades did NOT use D&D's OGL or SRD.  You might be confused because Troll Lord games does use the OGL developed by WoTC (but it refers to their books, not D&D) in order to allow people to use C&C content.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2020, 07:19:50 PM by DocJones »

S'mon

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What is everyone's thoughts on Chaoisum's OGL they released?
« Reply #136 on: April 21, 2020, 07:42:18 PM »
Quote from: DocJones;1127470
Castles & Crusades did NOT use D&D's OGL or SRD.  You might be confused because Troll Lord games does use the OGL developed by WoTC (but it refers to their books, not D&D) in order to allow people to use C&C content.

C&C uses the OGL in order to let them use 3e D&D material converted over to a more 1e-ish game. It certainly does use content from the 3e SRD.

DocJones

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What is everyone's thoughts on Chaoisum's OGL they released?
« Reply #137 on: April 21, 2020, 08:14:36 PM »
Quote from: S'mon;1127472
C&C uses the OGL in order to let them use 3e D&D material converted over to a more 1e-ish game. It certainly does use content from the 3e SRD.

I have the original core books sitting in front of me... well 2nd edition.  There is no OGL or SRD.  Maybe much kater editions.
The main point being they didn't need OGL or SRD to clone D&D.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2020, 08:16:45 PM by DocJones »

Philotomy Jurament

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What is everyone's thoughts on Chaoisum's OGL they released?
« Reply #138 on: April 22, 2020, 02:41:58 AM »
Quote from: DocJones;1127470
Castles & Crusades did NOT use D&D's OGL or SRD.

You are mistaken.

Quote
You might be confused because Troll Lord games does use the OGL developed by WoTC (but it refers to their books, not D&D) in order to allow people to use C&C content.

No, I'm not confused.

Take a look at this errata document for C&C: http://www.trolllord.com/downloads/pdfs/errata.pdf
The last page of the errata is the OGL statement. (TLG has never been very great at editing their releases.)

Note "This book is published under the Open Game License (OGL) version 1.0a...The Open Game Content appearing in this book is derived from the 3.0 System Reference Document, copyright 2000 Wizards of the Coast..."

If you have any doubt about what "book" this is supposed to apply to, see the copyright notice in the OGL statement: "Castles & Crusades: Players Handbook, Copyright 2004...Castles & Crusades Errata Product Support, Copyright 2005, Troll Lord Games."
The problem is not that power corrupts, but that the corruptible are irresistibly drawn to the pursuit of power. Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.

Philotomy Jurament

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What is everyone's thoughts on Chaoisum's OGL they released?
« Reply #139 on: April 22, 2020, 03:09:04 AM »
Quote from: DocJones;1127477
I have the original core books sitting in front of me... well 2nd edition.


Here's the 2nd edition errata document: https://www.dropbox.com/s/8dwe5cvvwb4lw3f/PHB80102Errata.pdf?dl=1

OGL on the last page, including the Players Handbook (Copyright 2004), Monsters & Treasures (Copyright 2005), and Players Handbook Errata Product Support (Copyright 2007).

EDIT: And one more addition...

Here's a link to Troll Lord's site archived on the Internet Wayback Machine. This is from June of 2004.
https://web.archive.org/web/20040603220535/http://trolllord.com/candc.htm

In the "On the Anvil" section for upcoming products, TLG lists the C&C Players Handbook. Here's what they say about it (emphasis added)

Quote
Castles & Crusades™ Players Handbook

Castles & Crusades™ – the fast, fun, rules lite Fantasy Role Playing Game!  This book, some paper, pencil, and a few dice is all you're going to need to unleash the power of your imagination to create tales of high adventure for your friends and compatriots. The Castles & Crusades Players Handbook contains everything you need to know and all the rules necessary to launch your own campaign of high adventure.  If your imagination knows no bounds, then these rules are for you.  

The Castles & Crusades Players Handbook is a complete manual for Fantasy Role Playing.  By utilizing the Open Game License from Wizards of the Coast, Castles & Crusades™ builds upon past and present incarnations of the world’s most popular fantasy role playing game and resurrect fantasy roleplay.  Castles & Crusades™ Players Handbook includes rules for character generation, character advancement, a fast paced combat and rules system, spells, and instruction for the Castle Keeper™ on how to run a successful game of high fantasy adventure.
 
Castles & Crusades harkens back to a time when role playing was not constrained by rules but rather, when the rules unleashed the power of the imagination.  and tell a tale of wondrous, high adventure, where the fantastic never becomes mundane.

Stop crunching numbers and Game!

TLG 8010, Hardcover;
$19.99, 128 pages, illustrated Hardback,
ISBN-1-931275-60-2

Product and Support Products:
Castles & Crusades™ Players Handbook......On the Anvil
Castles and Crusades™ Monsters and Treasure......On the Anvil
« Last Edit: April 22, 2020, 03:29:57 AM by Philotomy Jurament »
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S'mon

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What is everyone's thoughts on Chaoisum's OGL they released?
« Reply #140 on: April 22, 2020, 05:39:33 AM »
Googling Castles & Crusades for a pirate copy (I gave away my print C&Cs a while ago) I can see the OGL on page 128 of Monsters & Treasure (1st edition, (c) 2005). Unsurprising since the monsters & magic items are mostly taken from the 3e D&D SRD. The preliminary starts with:

Castles & Crusades
128
Monsters & Treasure
129
This book is published under the Open Game License (OGL) version
1.0a by permission of Wizards of the Coast, Inc. The Open Game
Content appearing in this book is derived from the 3.0 System Reference
Document, copyright 2000 Wizards of the Coast, Inc
. All contents,
excluding the OGL, is property of and copyright 2004 Troll Lord Games.
All Rights Reserved.
 Designation of Open Game Content: The following is designated
Open Game Content pursuant to the OGL v1.0a: all text appearing in the
following sections and subsections, listed by page number and heading
or sub-heading: pages 4-85, "Monsters"; pages 86-127, "Treasure".
Also, the following open game content related words, phrases, and
abbreviations wherever they appear: Strength (Str), Dexterity (Dex),
Constitution (Con), Intelligence (Int), Wisdom (Wis), Charisma (Cha),
Class, Fighter, Ranger, Rogue, Assassin, Barbarian, Monk, Wizard,
Illusionist, Cleric, Druid, Knight, Bard, Paladin, Race, Demi-human,
Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Half-Elf, Halfling, Half-Orc, Hit Dice (HD), Hit
Points (HP), Alignment, Lawful Good (LG), Lawful Neutral (LN),
Lawful Evil (LE), Neutral (N), Neutral Good (NG), Neutral Evil (NE),
Chaotic Good (CG), Chaotic Neutral (CN), Chaotic Evil (CE), Level,
"to hit", Damage, Experience Point, Saving Throw, Player Character
(PC), Non-player Character (NPC), Turn Undead, Spell, Arcane, Divine,
Magic, Spell Resistance, Item, Equipment, Armor, Weapon, Potion, Rod,
Staff, Wand, Scroll, Ring, Wondrous Item, Artifact, Cursed, Bonus, d4,
d6, d8, d10, d12, d20, d%, round, and turn.
 Designation of Product Identity: Product identity is not Open Game
Content. The following is designated as product identity pursuant to
OGL v1.0a(1)(e) and (7): (A) product and product line names, including
Castles & Crusades, Castles & Crusades: Player's Handbook, Castles
& Crusades: Monsters and Treasures, Castles & Crusades: Castle
Keeper's Guide; (B) logos, identifying marks, and trade dress; (C)
all artwork, logos, symbols, graphic designs, depictions, likenesses,
formats, poses, concepts, themes and graphic, photographic and other
visual representations; (D) logos and trademarks, including Castles &
Crusades, Castle Keeper, SIEGE engine, and Troll Lord Games, or any
other trademark or registered trademark clearly identified as product
identity by the owner of the product identity, and which specifically
excludes the open game content.

JeffB

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What is everyone's thoughts on Chaoisum's OGL they released?
« Reply #141 on: April 22, 2020, 07:52:12 AM »
The C&C PHB (latest printing)  has been available for free for the past few weeks. So anyone can go take a look themselves and score a copy.

But yeah, they use WOTC SRD (3.0). Always have


Get your free copy here at the TLG site

estar

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What is everyone's thoughts on Chaoisum's OGL they released?
« Reply #142 on: April 22, 2020, 11:39:29 AM »
Quote from: S'mon;1127503
Googling Castles & Crusades for a pirate copy (I gave away my print C&Cs a while ago) I can see the OGL on page 128 of Monsters & Treasure (1st edition, (c) 2005). Unsurprising since the monsters & magic items are mostly taken from the 3e D&D SRD. The preliminary starts with:
Troll Lords opted for a minimal declaration of open content. The material of that books as well as the player handbook are useless for anybody to build on as far as publishing goes.

RPGPundit

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What is everyone's thoughts on Chaoisum's OGL they released?
« Reply #143 on: April 23, 2020, 06:38:04 PM »
I think WoTC doesn't have any interest in going after tiny (from their point of view) game designers, at the cost of getting the kind of reputation that TSR once had. It's just not worth it, unless some OSR game rose to gigantic Pathfinder-esque proportions, and even then they know that trying to claim rights to game mechanics is a legally dubious endeavor.  They're just better off ignoring it, especially considering how incredibly well D&D is doing.
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Vile Traveller

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What is everyone's thoughts on Chaoisum's OGL they released?
« Reply #144 on: April 23, 2020, 09:56:08 PM »
Cloning is the most sincere form of flattery - if a clone starts outselling the original, it still shows there must be something good about the original. The best way for publishers to "fight back" is to make sure their product stays ahead of the clones. If they can't do that, their business model is flawed.

trechriron

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What is everyone's thoughts on Chaoisum's OGL they released?
« Reply #145 on: April 24, 2020, 03:53:03 AM »
Quote from: Vile;1127698
Cloning is the most sincere form of flattery - if a clone starts outselling the original, it still shows there must be something good about the original. The best way for publishers to "fight back" is to make sure their product stays ahead of the clones. If they can't do that, their business model is flawed.

The smart move would be to create a larger D&D community and embrace all the clones. Talk up different mechanics, new ideas and champion the do-it-yourself movement. Create a regular monthly digital magazine with all kinds of D&D hijinks, modules and hacks. Have guest spots where OSR designers show how to take a hot item and put in D&D 5e or vice versa. Make encounters with 8 different variant clone stats. Just embrace the whole damn thing as one happy family of house-rules, custom content and variant builds. Like build the brand vs. the ruleset. Then sell the shit out of the brand. Fucking Jack Cheese on a Slinky it's Hasbro. When you are that big you should be playing in the big leagues for the big money. Fucking clowns.
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JeffB

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What is everyone's thoughts on Chaoisum's OGL they released?
« Reply #146 on: April 24, 2020, 08:27:19 AM »
Quote from: trechriron;1127719
The smart move would be to create a larger D&D community and embrace all the clones. Talk up different mechanics, new ideas and champion the do-it-yourself movement. Create a regular monthly digital magazine with all kinds of D&D hijinks, modules and hacks. Have guest spots where OSR designers show how to take a hot item and put in D&D 5e or vice versa. Make encounters with 8 different variant clone stats. Just embrace the whole damn thing as one happy family of house-rules, custom content and variant builds. Like build the brand vs. the ruleset.

I agree with you- 100%

Unfortunately this doesn't fit in with WOTC's "Shared Experience" modus operandi for the D&D brand- which is the D&D Brand Team providing the experience they want you to have and you sharing that experience with the community they want /have built around 5E.

I believe WOTC also  feels most D&D fans cannot handle that. TMI/Product confuses consumers, and makes purchases more difficult or keeps consumers from  making purchases. (Like the 4E PHB1/2/3 scheme). Instead they make the DM's guild and want the community to funnel alt material through that. or D&D Beyond or any other number of business partners they work with.

I don't believe D&D will ever get back to the hobbyist community of times past- that is precisely why we have the OSR. I didn't really care for the guy, but Thank God for Ryan Dancey- he saw the writing on the wall and gave the hobby community a really big gift in the OGL/SRD. It backfired on WOTC, but was a blessing for us.

edit- Forgot to add- Chaosium however, could definitely benefit from a  more charitable OGL for their products.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2020, 08:46:11 AM by JeffB »

JeffB

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What is everyone's thoughts on Chaoisum's OGL they released?
« Reply #147 on: April 24, 2020, 11:48:33 AM »
Not sure if anyone noticed/knows- but looks like they opened up the HEROQUEST system as well

QUESTWORLDS

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What is everyone's thoughts on Chaoisum's OGL they released?
« Reply #148 on: April 24, 2020, 12:02:59 PM »
Quote from: JeffB;1127752
I agree with you- 100%

Unfortunately this doesn't fit in with WOTC's "Shared Experience" modus operandi for the D&D brand- which is the D&D Brand Team providing the experience they want you to have and you sharing that experience with the community they want /have built around 5E.

  Finally, someone else gets it. :) I'm sure there are a lot of people who get it; I just haven't seen that many, that's all.

trechriron

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What is everyone's thoughts on Chaoisum's OGL they released?
« Reply #149 on: April 24, 2020, 03:59:42 PM »
Quote from: estar;1127522
Troll Lords opted for a minimal declaration of open content. The material of that books as well as the player handbook are useless for anybody to build on as far as publishing goes.

If they declare the product as open, and do not designate any product identity, the whole thing is open. So, you could just take the rules and build whatever OGL game you wanted.

However, C&C is a very playable game. It's got tons of details. So, probably not the best business plan. :-)
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