Okay, so I've gotten this book, and the lifepaths imply a certain setting. World-weary elves, gold-lusting dwarves, twisted orcs... Tolkien with the serial numbers filed off. Cool. But then I get to references to the Church, and do a double-take.
If you add Christianity to Middle Earth, suddenly things start looking really different, and it adds complications that the source material doesn't address. Is the idea that you're not supposed to use "the Church" if you're also using dwarves and stuff (and visa versa), or does this game have a setting that ties it all together?
I'm not sure if I understood you well, so tell me if I didn't.
Burning Wheel reminds me in this regard of D&D. Do Burning Wheel and D&D (at least, in the corebooks) have a setting? Well, no. Do they imply a certain setting? I would say yes. Do they have certain assumptions regarding the kind of fantasy they do (unlike Fantasy Hero)? I would say yes.
I think the character stocks are examples of what you could do for your own setting. The difference between Burning Wheel and D&D in this regard is that D&D has sourcebooks that tune rules and settings (Dragonlance, Eberron, etc), whereas Burning Wheel doesn't.
Quote from: ClaudiusI'm not sure if I understood you well, so tell me if I didn't.
Burning Wheel reminds me in this regard of D&D. Do Burning Wheel and D&D (at least, in the corebooks) have a setting? Well, no. Do they imply a certain setting? I would say yes. Do they have certain assumptions regarding the kind of fantasy they do (unlike Fantasy Hero)? I would say yes.
Right. We're on the same page so far.
QuoteI think the character stocks are examples of what you could do for your own setting. The difference between Burning Wheel and D&D in this regard is that D&D has sourcebooks that tune rules and settings (Dragonlance, Eberron, etc), whereas Burning Wheel doesn't.
Okay, you've sort of lost me here. What I'm asking is:
Is there some setting where having both Tolkien-style fantasy races and the Church makes sense? Or is it assumed that you'll use one or the other, but not both?
Think Victorian Medieval with elves, dwarfs, and orcs added. Victorian Medieval in that the world greatly resembles the Medieval period as constructed by Victorian academics; the betters rule the lessers, the Church oppresses free thought, and filth abounds. Take Mafia civics, cyberpunk ethics, and dragons and add a bit of late adolescent nihilism. That's the Burning Wheel setting.
Quote from: hgjsOkay, you've sort of lost me here. What I'm asking is:
Is there some setting where having both Tolkien-style fantasy races and the Church makes sense? Or is it assumed that you'll use one or the other, but not both?
Ah, I see.
I assume that only one or the other will be used, but that's me. :)
Quote from: ClaudiusAh, I see.I assume that only one or the other will be used, but that's me. :)
That is pretty much it. It has even less of a "setting" than D&D (although the races given are much more unique from humans). Which makes sense since it is even more a general purpose game than D&D. In a lot of ways the Elves, Orcs, and Dwarves, Faith, Sorcery, etc. are
examples.
If you check the Monster Burner out you've got the Roden race, complete with a 2 page backstory history of the race....but it doesn't have specific links to the other races other than vague reference to humans. Same with the Great Wolf race except it doesn't reference any other race at all. But these are basically given as example races. Same as with the non-lifepathed monsters.
If you check out the Wiki there is a chapter excert from the upcoming Magic Burner that gives spirit binding as another way to do magic. It'll co-exist with Sorcery and Faith or stand alone (it's roughly how you'd implement a D&D Druid). Basically the magic system is modular so you can pop in and out types with different flavours depending on what setting you want. Even with Faith you are explicitly questioned about how powerful you want it to customize it's influence as part of defining the setting.
Sorcery also has some spells that wouldn't really fit for Toilken either. It's a much larger grabbag that covers more territory. But simply limiting the available spells to the appropriate subset makes it a really good fit.
QuoteThink Victorian Medieval with elves, dwarfs, and orcs added. Victorian Medieval in that the world greatly resembles the Medieval period as constructed by Victorian academics;
Tolkien was late Edwardian (EDIT: actually I guess he would have wrote LotR post-Edwardian) but he would have grown up reading Victorian historians. Yeah, basically Tolkien with a little grime smeared on. (( I'm not sure where you get "the Church oppresses free thought" though? ))
There's also a Lankhmar vibe to the city lifepaths.
I do love that game for all those lifepaths, especially the humans and Elves. Too bad it otherwise is... well, what it is.
The implied settings I get are:
Tolkien
High Midle Ages to Early Renaissance Drama
The animal characters give me a touch of Watership Down?
I think cutting the religious lifepaths from a Tolkien style game makes sense. You can add all the races in monster burner except the Roden to such a game if you want though.
I really like a lot of things about BW and almost started a campaign with it a while back, but it's just too crunchy for me. I can't deal with RPGs that have like skills and stuff.
Has anyone done good BW hobbits yet?
Quote from: CalithenaHas anyone done good BW hobbits yet?
You know I thought I had seen one, but I can't find it now. The one for dark elves was pretty good stuff, as an aside.
Quote from: CalithenaHas anyone done good BW hobbits yet?
One way to look at them is as Peasant Setting and Villiage Setting Humans with a few race traits. (http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?t=206&highlight=hobbits) Another I've seen suggested is to modify the Roden (but I don't exactly get that). Just do a search on the BW boards and you'll get a number of hits.
P.S. I get the impression that somewhere along the idea of offical BWR Hobbits got FOXed. *shrug*
Quote from: Pierce InverarityThere's also a Lankhmar vibe to the city lifepaths.
Probably because there is a city vibe to the city lifepaths. You character ends up feeling like it is part of society instead of isolated from it, even when you dip into the Outcast setting. A lot of games the character is sort of a blank slate when you start. Sure they had this life before but now they have this completely different separated, they've been transmuted and what they knew, what they did, and how they lived doesn't much matter anymore.
Quote from: blakkieOne way to look at them is as Peasant Setting and Villiage Setting Humans with a few race traits. (http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?t=206&highlight=hobbits)
"Water off a duck's back"? Nice. More of that, please, Mr. designer man.
It's funny, the halfling in Basic D&D is among the strongest classes. They got it right from the get-go.
Quote from: Pierce Inverarity"Water off a duck's back"? Nice. More of that, please, Mr. designer man.
It's funny, the halfling in Basic D&D is among the strongest classes. They got it right from the get-go.
:confused: Hobbits aren't particularly 'strong' in Tolkien's work. They are definately resilient and, this is their key advantage, greater than many expect from their diminutive stature. But in the end if you notice them coming and don't make the mistake of dismissing them they aren't an extraordinarily hard match.
EDIT: Hrmm, getting a little off topic though I guess. Feel like firing up a Hobbit thread?
No, resilience is what I meant by "strength," is all. But that's a big deal--they don't crack (easily) in face of horror and overwhelming adversity.
Quote from: Pierce InverarityBut that's a big deal--they don't crack (easily) in face of horror and overwhelming adversity.
I'm curious, have you ever seen a game attempting to do Hobbits (or an obvious ripoff AKA Halflings) not include that aspect? What were the numbers for BD&D? Because 3e's +2 for fear saves isn't exactly overwhelming in the big scheme of things, although they do get that +1 across the board save bonus which is nice.
Blakkie, I'm not saying that in the history of roleplaying only D&D and BW ever got halflings right. I'm saying BD&D did get them right on the first try (best saves besides dwarves, 90%[!] chance to hide in woods/underbrush, 30% to hide in shadows indoors, among other things).
Quote from: Pierce InverarityBlakkie, I'm not saying that in the history of roleplaying only D&D and BW ever got halflings right.
Yeah, I kinda got that impression you
were saying so. I thought maybe somebody somewhere along the line had shafted the little guys hard. :) Actually IMO I think that AD&D/3e did somewhat. There isn't much of a differentiation between the races, any of the races. I understand why but it still comes across a little bland.
P.S. That was a really old post by Luke and not even for BW Revised. So maybe that's why he didn't mention including "are you a Hobbit" in the Steel Questionaire (they should get at least a +1, probably a +2). Or he just brainfarted and it didn't occur to him?
Quote from: ClaudiusThe difference between Burning Wheel and D&D in this regard is that D&D has sourcebooks that tune rules and settings (Dragonlance, Eberron, etc), whereas Burning Wheel doesn't.
That's not entirely true -- the
Under a Serpent Sun PDF on the BW wiki is a fully self-contained setting, as it were.
Quote from: blakkieProbably because there is a city vibe to the city lifepaths. You character ends up feeling like it is part of society instead of isolated from it, even when you dip into the Outcast setting. A lot of games the character is sort of a blank slate when you start. Sure they had this life before but now they have this completely different separated, they've been transmuted and what they knew, what they did, and how they lived doesn't much matter anymore.
Which is exactly the problem in a TROS Conan game we're about to start. The PCs feel (to me) as if they had appeared of nowhere. I think I'll switch to Hârn for the setting.
Yes, this is an off-topic. :)
Quote from: jdrakehThat's not entirely true -- the Under a Serpent Sun PDF on the BW wiki is a fully self-contained setting, as it were.
I had forgotten about that, and about Jihad. Well, what can I say, I stand corrected. :)
Quote from: blakkieTolkien was late Edwardian (EDIT: actually I guess he would have wrote LotR post-Edwardian) but he would have grown up reading Victorian historians. Yeah, basically Tolkien with a little grime smeared on. (( I'm not sure where you get "the Church oppresses free thought" though? ))
Who's talking about Tolkien? I was referring to the popular image of Medieval times.
Quote from: mythusmageWho's talking about Tolkien? I was referring to the popular image of Medieval times.
...with elves and dwarves and orcs that are arguably more Tolkien than MERP. Even the dragon is a Tolkien/Earthsea crossbreed. Same thing.
I'm still curious about "the Church oppresses free thought" part, where do you get that come from in the BWR books? I must have missed that part.
Quote from: blakkie...with elves and dwarves and orcs that are arguably more Tolkien than MERP. Even the dragon is a Tolkien/Earthsea crossbreed. Same thing.
I'm still curious about "the Church oppresses free thought" part, where do you get that come from in the BWR books? I must have missed that part.
Think Victorian Medievalist tropes. Features that predate BW by a century or so.
Quote from: mythusmageThink Victorian Medievalist tropes. Features that predate BW by a century or so.
But where is the there anything about the Church? And what exactly do you see as more Victorian in the looking back on the history? I'm not saying "wrong", I'm asking why you class it like that? Do you see anywhere in the Bibliography where such an influence might have come from?
Frankly I see it as more early Renissance (from the weapons and the medical skills for starters). I think JamesV was closest so far. I even think I see where JamesV gets the Watership Down vibe from. Sapient, social animal races with a history of internal strife. Roden particularly.
P.S. The initial basics for Middle Earth were laid down over 70 years ago and come from a man that would have grown up reading Victorian POV history. That was my point there.
Quote from: blakkieBut where is the there anything about the Church? And what exactly do you see as more Victorian in the looking back on the history? I'm not saying "wrong", I'm asking why you class it like that? Do you see anywhere in the Bibliography where such an influence might have come from?
I'm talking about more than the game, you obtuse moose. I'm talking about how people have seen the Middle Ages, from Victorian times to the present. I'm talking about academic bigotry. Tolkien be buggered sez I, He has fuck all to do with it.
IT'S THE VICTORIAN ACADEMICS, STUPID!They are the oblivious fools who got so much of the Middle Ages wrong, and who's work has so blighted popular efforts to this day. And for your information, you pox lobotomized twit, you can't blame Tolkien for elves, dwarfs, and orcs any more. They have entered the zeitgeist, they are an RPG trope. Just because a game has elves, dwarfs, and orcs does not mean it has to draw from
Lord of the Rings.
Burning Wheel features just about every mistake, error, and stupid idea from early Medieval studies as any other fantasy RPG. Peasants living lives of endless toil, the Church suppressing knowledge and burning witches in ton lots, crap like that. It informs the game and those who play it. It comes as part of the baggage everyone brings to the table, and nothing is done to correct the idiocy.
The author brought assumptions when he wrote it, players bring assumptions when they play it. They don't have to be spelled out to have an effect on what is produced. It's called sub-text, learn about it.
Quote from: mythusmageBurning Wheel features just about every mistake, error, and stupid idea from early Medieval studies as any other fantasy RPG. Peasants living lives of endless toil, the Church suppressing knowledge and burning witches in ton lots, crap like that.
Are there such things in Burning Wheel? Could you give examples from the text? With page quotations, please.
Quote from: ClaudiusAre there such things in Burning Wheel? Could you give examples from the text? With page quotations, please.
Of course he can't. He's "talking about more than the game". :rolleyes: Which I guess means he's talking about stuff that isn't actually in the book.
Quote from: mythusmageBurning Wheel features just about every mistake, error, and stupid idea from early Medieval studies as any other fantasy RPG. Peasants living lives of endless toil, the Church suppressing knowledge and burning witches in ton lots, crap like that. It informs the game and those who play it. It comes as part of the baggage everyone brings to the table, and nothing is done to correct the idiocy.
Where?
I mean, I broadly agree with you that most people's conceptions of the middle ages are quite wrong, but I'm not sure I see how BW features those errors. Where does BW have the Church suppressing knowledge for example?
Also, I'd note that BW is not a historical rpg, it's a fantasy rpg, as such I would personally expect it to hew more closely to traditional fantasy settings than I would to actual historical ones. Criticising it for not being historical is a bit like criticising Toon for not being realistic surely? It's not a design goal.
So all of my sources, Keegan, Tuchman and Seward are all drooling mouthbreathers, eh? All of the first person stuff from the period (their research, not mine) is bullcuckey, eh? There's a bibliography. Debunk it!
Enlighten me! I love research. And I like my games to be consistent internally and I do like a little historical accuracy sprinkled atop my fiction.
-L
EDIT: and OF COURSE my game has a view point. I'm not denying that.